Observations of A Ignoramus

[ambull01]

The ignoramus is myself. I'm totally new to wood burning. Just got a fireplace insert as a gift but have to wait until next year to use it.

Anyway, I've been mentioning I burn/will burn wood for heat to just about everyone I meet. I have met a few people that burn as well and found they all have not heard of secondary combustion. Father in-law has been burning at least 6 years and had no idea his free standing stove's catalytic converter was for secondaries. Brother in-law burned about 5 years and wasn't sure how creosote is formed. Other people I've spoken to were totally clueless. Is this normal? If it is, then every single member of this site is much more informed than your average wood burner.

Second thing. Since most of us are going through this little cold spell, people around me are heating like it's middle winter. I walk my dog twice a day and since I've become totally obsessed with wood burning/cutting I always look out for downed trees or chimney smoke. I've noticed mild to excessive smoke coming out of chimneys. So, if most people are clueless about wood burning, I assume this kind of smoke/fire burning is the norm. If it is the norm, why aren't chimney fires more common? I would like it would be a weekly occurrence.

Third thing. This has been keeping me up at night. My chimney's not lined which is why I'm holding off on burning this year. I'll install a SS liner and insulation next year which brings me to my question. How does the creosote eventually get hot enough to ignite? I ask this because the smoke leaving the stove will be hotter the closer you get to the fire. Creosote forms as this mixture cools off (I think that's right). Sooo, most of the creosote will form higher up the flue. The higher up you go, the amount of heat will drop. How does the creosote eventually get hot enough to ignite?

 

[Cory S]

I would say 30% of people here in NH, burn green wood every year. They think since they split and stacked it in June, it's seasoned and ready for this season. SMH. What a waste.

People who burn wet wood slow and smoldering, are the ones with excessive build up of Creosote. As soon as future fire gets real real hot, the sticky wet creosote could ignite.

 

[ambull01]

I would say 30% of people here in NH, burn green wood every year. They think since they split and stacked it in June, it's seasoned and ready for this season. SMH. What a waste.

People who burn wet wood slow and smoldering, are the ones with excessive build up of Creosote. As soon as future fire gets real real hot, the sticky wet creosote could ignite.

Oh okay, kind of what I figured. So the slow smoldering fire will probably dump creosote lower in the flue vs a hot/efficient fire. Then when they burn hot it ignites the creosote that lined the flue. Lots of fuel at that point to travel up. Makes sense. Thanks

 

[Seanm]

Its good that you are noticing these things. It means you are tuned in. When Im chatting with people and find out they have a wood stove I ask what kind and the conversation usually (not always) goes like this,,, me "oh yeah? What kind of wood stove do you have"? them "not sure, but it came with the house" me "ok is it a cat or non cat? If its older it might be a smoke dragon" them "what"? I notice who has a fresh stack of rounds on the side of the house to split and then notice once its split and top covered, who had left over wood from last year, who burns dirty and who burns clean, the neighbor you're sure just has a fire place or did he get an insert and not know how to use it?? you havent seen any firewood so where does he keep it all? Your daughter goes over to another wood burners house and when she gets home you ask so does he have bigger stacks then us? Of course I do run in to the odd person that is very into it like me but not many. Yup you have the bug my friend!

 

[ambull01]

Its good that you are noticing these things. It means you are tuned in. When Im chatting with people and find out they have a wood stove I ask what kind and the conversation usually (not always) goes like this,,, me "oh yeah? What kind of wood stove do you have"? them "not sure, but it came with the house" me "ok is it a cat or non cat? If its older it might be a smoke dragon" them "what"? I notice who has a fresh stack of rounds on the side of the house to split and then notice once its split and top covered, who had left over wood from last year, who burns dirty and who burns clean, the neighbor you're sure just has a fire place or did he get an insert and not know how to use it?? you havent seen any firewood so where does he keep it all? Your daughter goes over to another wood burners house and when she gets home you ask so does he have bigger stacks then us? Of course I do run in to the odd person that is very into it like me but not many. Yup you have the bug my friend!

First of all, I wasn't just sitting on my couch waiting for an email notification someone replied to my thread. Honest. I was reading woodheat.org. lol

You'd be surprised the amount of smoke I've seen from some chimneys. Went to work the other day and there was a blanket of smoke that was above a whole street from someone burning wood. Glad I don't live next to that dude.

Yep, my conversations go just about like that. Funny thing is, I know very little about wood burning but I feel like a freaking expert when I talk to most people. I haven't met a person yet that has heard of a top down burn. Who says Marines are dumb?

What's really funny is EVERYONE tells me not to burn pine. They mention creosote and sap. All my wife's co-workers told her not to burn pine. Supposedly two guys there burn wood or used to at least and told her they had to clean their flues weekly. They always had a lot of creosote. They must have been doing something wrong.

Oh yeah, I forgot one more observation. I live in a Victorian style house. Internal chimney basically straight up through second floor then third floor. Comes out about 2-3 feet above the roof. The other Victorian style homes near me have all internal chimneys for the most part. I walk my dog down my street to a new/newer development. The homes that have them all have external chimneys! WTH! Haven't we learned external chimneys are not ideal? You would think they would design the chimney into the center of the home. That way the heat will be able to circulate all over the house vs struggle to reach far rooms.

 

[Seanm]

First of all, I wasn't just sitting on my couch waiting for an email notification someone replied to my thread. Honest. I was reading woodheat.org. lol

You'd be surprised the amount of smoke I've seen from some chimneys. Went to work the other day and there was a blanket of smoke that was above a whole street from someone burning wood. Glad I don't live next to that dude.

Yep, my conversations go just about like that. Funny thing is, I know very little about wood burning but I feel like a freaking expert when I talk to most people. I haven't met a person yet that has heard of a top down burn. Who says Marines are dumb?

What's really funny is EVERYONE tells me not to burn pine. They mention creosote and sap. All my wife's co-workers told her not to burn pine. Supposedly two guys there burn wood or used to at least and told her they had to clean their flues weekly. They always had a lot of creosote. They must have been doing something wrong.

Oh yeah, I forgot one more observation. I live in a Victorian style house. Internal chimney basically straight up through second floor then third floor. Comes out about 2-3 feet above the roof. The other Victorian style homes near me have all internal chimneys for the most part. I walk my dog down my street to a new/newer development. The homes that have them all have external chimneys! WTH! Haven't we learned external chimneys are not ideal? You would think they would design the chimney into the center of the home. That way the heat will be able to circulate all over the house vs struggle to reach far rooms.

Many people in my area have them on the outside of the house. Yes I think inside the house is better from what Im told but not normal here. LOL I look at a chimney billowing smoke and say to myself ok maybe its a start up burn, lets see how it looks on my drive home after work! If youve seen many of my posts you will notice I burn many cords of pine a year. What a great wood to burn! takes up more space than hard woods but seasons in under a year and gets your house up to temps in no time! No argument from me that there are better woods to burn but pine has its place. This is my third season on hearth but Ive been a burner since around 94. Still a student and learning from the experts here on a daily basis. Youve hit the nail on the head about your knowledge due to the fact you have such an amazing resource here to reference. Time to load the stove for my overnight burn.

 

[gyrfalcon]

What's really funny is EVERYONE tells me not to burn pine. They mention creosote and sap. All my wife's co-workers told her not to burn pine. Supposedly two guys there burn wood or used to at least and told her they had to clean their flues weekly. They always had a lot of creosote. They must have been doing something wrong.
.

Yeah, they're burning pine with no more seasoning than they give hardwoods, a couple of months tops.

I totally recognize what you're saying because it's the same where I am. The "old way" was and still is to cut down a tree, and if they don't cut it up and throw it in the stove immediately, which many do, it lies in the woods for a few months before being hauled out and cut down, and then it's called "seasoned."

Folks around here all have ancient "smoke dragon" cast stoves that will almost literally burn dirt, and they think dry wood is anathema. I've been given more kindly lectures about my insane habit of burning dry wood than I could count.

These are farm people who've been keeping themselves warm in drafty old farmhouses through Vermont winters burning green wood for generations, so what would I know about it in comparison. Of course, I burn a half to a quarter as much wood as they do and only get my chimney cleaned once a year, although it could go for many years without cleaning. But they genuinely think I'm an eccentric nut who's going to come to grief at some point. My chimney sweep always points out my chimney cap to whatever young assistant he's got along with him, to exclamations of amazement from said assistant and total refusal to believe I really do rely entirely on my stove to heat my home and burn 24/7 during the season.

The existence, never mind the virtues, of EPA stoves are essentially entirely unknown here, despite the fact they've been the only thing you can buy new for more than 20 years now. Those old cast stoves go on pretty much forever.

 

[BobUrban]

Yup - in the world of burning those that are here on Hearth are certainly the weirdo exception. We like to dig in, understand the process, get a "little" obsessive(tongue in cheek) and hoard wood as if our lives depend on it. I would venture to guess the majority are equally obsessive about other hobbies and have similar forums saved and daily viewed relating to those activities as well. I know I do. I find the ultimate irony to this and my primitive archery and woodsmanship hobby is daily researched on the most modern of communication platforms. The interweb can be a really great resource.

I have spoke with more than one fellow burner that told me, "you know when to clean the chimney when the draft gets weak"

Both of these individuals would clean only when their chimney was clogged shut and smoke started coming into the house!! Literally.

One of my neighbors says he has so many chimney fires per year that he is used to it and likes it for cleaning out build up.

They all think I am a crazy wood mizer and that my wood will rot before it burns. I just smile and say I do it for fun.

For the record - chimney fires cannot ignite without enough heat so even with a near clogged system you still need the heat to get it started. Hence - "smolderers" that think green wood lasts longer just keep smoldering and adding to the problem but often don't get fires up there because they are not creating enough heat. It is that one time at start up that they leave the door cracked open too long, or when they burn a bunch of cardboard at xmas or, God forbid, they actually load some dry wood into the stove and it takes off on them that the fire starts.

 

[DougA]

One of my neighbors says he has so many chimney fires per year that he is used to it and likes it for cleaning out build up.

That would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous. A good chimney fire will clean out your bowels too.

 

[firefighterjake]

Lots of folks doing lots of things have no real clue as to what they are doing . . . burning wood is just one of those things . . . one of those things that unfortunately can prove quite dangerous if not treated with respect.

I also may be wrong . . . I thought woodstoves with cats (as the OP mentioned) did not typically produce secondary flames (although I know some folks have seen some secondaries on occasion).

 

[Simonkenton]

"If it is, then every single member of this site is much more informed than your average wood burner."

You are correct, sir! Look, I have been burning for 35 years and every day I learn things on this forum. These guys are sharp.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Yes, BobUrban, I've been given that same earnest advice that if I must burn dry wood during the day, I should at least have some nice green stuff around for overnight burns.

I dunno that we here are so much obsessive for fussing about the details so much as we are learning how to get the most out of our fussy EPA stoves, where our smoke dragon neighbors seldom worry about it, they just throw the splits in there and slam the door.

 

[ambull01]

Many people in my area have them on the outside of the house. Yes I think inside the house is better from what Im told but not normal here. LOL I look at a chimney billowing smoke and say to myself ok maybe its a start up burn, lets see how it looks on my drive home after work! If youve seen many of my posts you will notice I burn many cords of pine a year. What a great wood to burn! takes up more space than hard woods but seasons in under a year and gets your house up to temps in no time! No argument from me that there are better woods to burn but pine has its place. This is my third season on hearth but Ive been a burner since around 94. Still a student and learning from the experts here on a daily basis. Youve hit the nail on the head about your knowledge due to the fact you have such an amazing resource here to reference. Time to load the stove for my overnight burn.

You know, since finding this site, I'm incapable of relenting from telling my wife about burning habits. I'll mention remark out load how someone's chimney is puking out a lot of smoke. She used to be attentive to my remarks but now just rolls her eyes.

I hear parts of the country have predominately pine. Cold parts of the country too. Knowing this, I don't see how people can still believe burning pine will cause you to become homeless.

I LOVE pine. Smells great. Awesome to use it in my outside fire pit since it's easy to light up. Helps get other wood to ignite. Is pretty good at removing moisture from less than seasoned wood. Plus people avoid it for firewood like the plague so it's usually easy pickings.

 

[ambull01]

Yeah, they're burning pine with no more seasoning than they give hardwoods, a couple of months tops.

I totally recognize what you're saying because it's the same where I am. The "old way" was and still is to cut down a tree, and if they don't cut it up and throw it in the stove immediately, which many do, it lies in the woods for a few months before being hauled out and cut down, and then it's called "seasoned."

Folks around here all have ancient "smoke dragon" cast stoves that will almost literally burn dirt, and they think dry wood is anathema. I've been given more kindly lectures about my insane habit of burning dry wood than I could count.

These are farm people who've been keeping themselves warm in drafty old farmhouses through Vermont winters burning green wood for generations, so what would I know about it in comparison. Of course, I burn a half to a quarter as much wood as they do and only get my chimney cleaned once a year, although it could go for many years without cleaning. But they genuinely think I'm an eccentric nut who's going to come to grief at some point. My chimney sweep always points out my chimney cap to whatever young assistant he's got along with him, to exclamations of amazement from said assistant and total refusal to believe I really do rely entirely on my stove to heat my home and burn 24/7 during the season.

The existence, never mind the virtues, of EPA stoves are essentially entirely unknown here, despite the fact they've been the only thing you can buy new for more than 20 years now. Those old cast stoves go on pretty much forever.

Maybe they think "seasoned" coincides with a season. CSS in beginning of summer means it will be seasoned by fall. The term seasoned firewood should be changed to something less ambiguous like cured.

It seems kind of odd how smoke dragon stoves will burn uncured wood better than an EPA stove. From what I've read, EPA stoves burn hotter to help ignite gases from the wood. If it burns hotter, wouldn't it help to get moisture out of wood vs a smoke dragon where a lot of heat is lost up the flue?

I'm routinely told I ask too many questions at times. I can't help it. Some say I'm like a little kid that always asks how and why. Not a good thing in the military lol. I've found knowing the purpose of something is extremely beneficial. Knowing how something works can help improve efficiency and aide in problem solving. I use a car for example when I explain this to my wife. I'm not a mechanic by any means but knowing the basics on how an automobile works can help with troubleshooting. You're driving around and all of a sudden all the dash lights come on and you lose power (had this happen a few times). Probably just drained your battery because of a bad alternator or loose belt (drove a crappy plastic Saturn in college that ate up tension pulleys). If it happened to my wife, she would have no clue what happened.

 

[ambull01]

Yup - in the world of burning those that are here on Hearth are certainly the weirdo exception. We like to dig in, understand the process, get a "little" obsessive(tongue in cheek) and hoard wood as if our lives depend on it. I would venture to guess the majority are equally obsessive about other hobbies and have similar forums saved and daily viewed relating to those activities as well. I know I do. I find the ultimate irony to this and my primitive archery and woodsmanship hobby is daily researched on the most modern of communication platforms. The interweb can be a really great resource.

I have spoke with more than one fellow burner that told me, "you know when to clean the chimney when the draft gets weak"

Both of these individuals would clean only when their chimney was clogged shut and smoke started coming into the house!! Literally.

One of my neighbors says he has so many chimney fires per year that he is used to it and likes it for cleaning out build up.

They all think I am a crazy wood mizer and that my wood will rot before it burns. I just smile and say I do it for fun.

For the record - chimney fires cannot ignite without enough heat so even with a near clogged system you still need the heat to get it started. Hence - "smolderers" that think green wood lasts longer just keep smoldering and adding to the problem but often don't get fires up there because they are not creating enough heat. It is that one time at start up that they leave the door cracked open too long, or when they burn a bunch of cardboard at xmas or, God forbid, they actually load some dry wood into the stove and it takes off on them that the fire starts.

Okay, sounds like you are all just like myself lol.

I would think, with some creosote/soot buildup, the draft would increase up to a point. It would decrease the flue size which would help the exhaust stay hotter hence rise faster. Total SWAG.

I don't even understand why someone would want to smolder firewood. It doesn't really give a lot of heat, at least from what I've found. If you're not getting heat from burning wood WTH is the point?

 

[ambull01]

Lots of folks doing lots of things have no real clue as to what they are doing . . . burning wood is just one of those things . . . one of those things that unfortunately can prove quite dangerous if not treated with respect.

I also may be wrong . . . I thought woodstoves with cats (as the OP mentioned) did not typically produce secondary flames (although I know some folks have seen some secondaries on occasion).

It doesn't? So how does it burn/consume the gases?

 

[CenterTree]

...... Other people I've spoken to were totally clueless. Is this normal? If it is, then every single member of this site is much more informed than your average wood burner.....

Yeah, we are all a bunch of wood-neck-geeks on here.








Stick around, I know I have learned a ton here and continue to gather useful info from here frequently.




.

 

[OhioBurner©]

Most think wood will season in log form, as in a downed tree they find in the woods is already seasoned. I avoid the word altogether. Instead, ask how long their wood has been split and stacked. Even in rounds, wood can rot before it seasons, especially if its sitting on the ground.

I wish people ignorant of proper burning technique would switch to pellet stoves. Then the seasoning and burn methods are taken care of.

Out of all my fellow coworkers on shift, there is one other who burns wood and we chat a lot. He's old school believes in throwing a green piece in there and smoldering for long burns, and even has an EPA stove. Has done the chimney fire thing to clean his chimney. Did it at night once, flames shooting out the end, said a couple people driving by even stopped in frantically telling him he had a chimney fire. Lol.

 

[OhioBurner©]

It doesn't? So how does it burn/consume the gases?

Similar to a cat in a vehicle I believe (I've never had one though), the catalyst causes a reaction at high enough temperature. There is no secondary air in a cat stove, except for a hybrid like the Woodstock progress stove. And similarly a stove with secondary burn tubes doesn't have a cat, instead secondary air is preheated by usually channeling it up the back of the firebox then fed into the firebox under the baffle.

I suppose this could be a terminology problem... You could sort if say the catylitic combuster is 'secondary combustion' as primary would be the burning of the wood in the firebox. But usually secondary is reffering to stoves with the burn tubes that feed in secondary air.

 

[ambull01]

Most think wood will season in log form, as in a downed tree they find in the woods is already seasoned. I avoid the word altogether. Instead, ask how long their wood has been split and stacked. Even in rounds, wood can rot before it seasons, especially if its sitting on the ground.

I wish people ignorant of proper burning technique would switch to pellet stoves. Then the seasoning and burn methods are taken care of.

Out of all my fellow coworkers on shift, there is one other who burns wood and we chat a lot. He's old school believes in throwing a green piece in there and smoldering for long burns, and even has an EPA stove. Has done the chimney fire thing to clean his chimney. Did it at night once, flames shooting out the end, said a couple people driving by even stopped in frantically telling him he had a chimney fire. Lol.

Well in-laws told me these massive poplar (massive to me at least lol) logs were seasoned. It came down 2-3 years ago during a storm. They stacked them in their field off the ground. Outer 2-3 inches are rotted. I've been cutting and stacking them for several weeks. Tried to burn them but they don't seem to behave properly. From what I've read, poplar should burn like pine. Hot and fast. Takes a little coaxing.

If flames shoot up out of my chimney I'm shutting down the primary air and running out of my house.

 

[Seanm]

Well in-laws told me these massive poplar (massive to me at least lol) logs were seasoned. It came down 2-3 years ago during a storm. They stacked them in their field off the ground. Outer 2-3 inches are rotted. I've been cutting and stacking them for several weeks. Tried to burn them but they don't seem to behave properly. From what I've read, poplar should burn like pine. Hot and fast. Takes a little coaxing.

If flames shoot up out of my chimney I'm shutting down the primary air and running out of my house.

Several years ago I had a small amount of poplar in my stacks. I picked up a split and it felt very lite. I resplit it and stuck my moisture meter in it and found it was upwards of 30% still! Since I had no experience burning the stuff my perception was that it was good to go so im glad i stuck a meter into it. Poplar will burn hot and fast and quicker than most pines. It leaves a ton of ash I find.

 

[mellow]

One thing I wanted to add, just because you have a baffle doesn't mean that flames do not travel up and over it into your liner, they do on occasion on a ripping fire, that is how the creosote that is lower will be ignited. You will get this alot with people using cardboard and paper to use as startup material.

Trust me, you don't want a chimney fire, had 2 before I found this site, using what was taught to me as "proper burning" techniques. Good thing the fire department was right down the street.

 

[ambull01]

Similar to a cat in a vehicle I believe (I've never had one though), the catalyst causes a reaction at high enough temperature. There is no secondary air in a cat stove, except for a hybrid like the Woodstock progress stove. And similarly a stove with secondary burn tubes doesn't have a cat, instead secondary air is preheated by usually channeling it up the back of the firebox then fed into the firebox under the baffle.

I suppose this could be a terminology problem... You could sort if say the catylitic combuster is 'secondary combustion' as primary would be the burning of the wood in the firebox. But usually secondary is reffering to stoves with the burn tubes that feed in secondary air.

Interesting. Just read this:

http://woodheat.org/how-epa-certified-stoves-work.html

I wish I could see the catalytic converter in action. Sounds like the gases still burn, you just can't see it. From the diagrams, kind of seems like the baffle/non-cat stove would have better draft. It seems to heat the exiting air more. Non-cat stove would kind of take some of the enjoyment away. I love watching the secondaries going.

 

[ambull01]

One thing I wanted to add, just because you have a baffle doesn't mean that flames do not travel up and over it into your liner, they do on occasion on a ripping fire, that is how the creosote that is lower will be ignited. You will get this alot with people using cardboard and paper to use as startup material.

Trust me, you don't want a chimney fire, had 2 before I found this site, using what was taught to me as "proper burning" techniques. Good thing the fire department was right down the street.

Yeah I kind of figured out how the lower creosote could ignite. Just wasn't sure how the stuff toward the chimney exit would ever ignite.

 

[mellow]

You can still burn cool enough that creosote will form at lower parts in the chimney with an insulated liner, especially with wet wood and smouldering. With an epa stove like you have will help regulate against that since the air can only be cut down to a point, but still with wet wood you are cooling the chimney exhaust and creosote sticks to the moisture then to the walls of the liner.

You can still have good secondaries in a cat stove, mine has nice ghost flames as the smoke ignites trailing down from the cat. This is an example from a blaze king:

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