Our wood stove installation denied

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gardenheather

New Member
Nov 30, 2021
11
Michigan
We recently installed a vintage wood burning stove, and because it had no UL listing we went by the guidelines found at nasd online. I printed that information out, along with some other information I had researched. I highlighted all of the specs we were going by and I put it in with our permit application. The permit was granted, and the inspector just came and did not pass it. He says that he has no specs to judge it by, no way to know what size pipe it should need (the hole is 6 in so 6 in I guess?) He says he has no way to know if the chimney is too big or too small inside and that I should see that it's drafting into the room. I did not see any such thing. At any rate, he did not pass it, and the one thing that was keeping my son warm now cannot be legally used because if everything burns down the insurance won't cover anything. He lives with baseboard heat and he cannot afford it and neither can we afford to help him. The only advice the man gave me was to look up the model number and do some research on it to see if I can find specs. I cannot find any. The only thing I have is Kings Stove and Range Co., Sheffield, Alabama, Sun Oak, 17-c. That's everything I can see on the stove. Can somebody please help me? We put all this money and work into this, into getting it just as the specs were online, and we cannot afford to undo it and buy all new. If we could afford that, we could just pay his electric bill. I'm so desperate.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
97,984
South Puget Sound, WA
What specifications were provided to the inspector? What is the nasd site? The specs that should have been provided are in NFPA 211.

This antique is not going to have documentation. From what I can tell it is a coal stove. It sounds like the shortest path would be to change the stove to a wood stove that is UL tested, has documentation, a 6" flue, and is appropriately sized for the location.
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
97,984
South Puget Sound, WA
Is this the stove? Hopefully complete and in better condition.
sun oak.jpeg
 

gardenheather

New Member
Nov 30, 2021
11
Michigan

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
97,984
South Puget Sound, WA
Thanks for the pictures and links. They help a lot. The NASD info has some things right and some things wrong. The inspector needs code-specific references, not a professor's summary.
Why was that wall behind the stove built out so far? What is the construction of it? Is it wooden studded with something on the face? What are the pass-through construction details of the stovepipe to the chimney? What is being used for a chimney outside?
 
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gardenheather

New Member
Nov 30, 2021
11
Michigan
My husband extended that area of the wall, that's where my son is storing his wood. The chimney is the original existing chimney that was built to vent the original kerosene heater. That section of pipe going into the chimney is double walled, surrounded with high heat concrete. The rest is single walled. There is 26g steel sheeting on the walls with 1 inch ceramic spacers. The original walls and ceiling are plaster and lathe, the built out section is just regular studs and drywall. He was ok with everything except not having a UL listing and no specs. He says the chimney could be too big or small for this stove and he can't possibly know.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
31,103
central pa
Technically it is against code to do a new install of an unlisted stove according to us mechanical code. But that is not what he is calling out really. I would ask him if NFPA 211 specs would work. Is the chimney lined? Was that liner inspected? What type of double wall pipe is it and how much space is around it to combustible materials?
 
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gardenheather

New Member
Nov 30, 2021
11
Michigan
Technically it is against code to do a new install of an unlisted stove according to us mechanical code. But that is not what he is calling out really. I would ask him if NFPA 211 specs would work. Is the chimney lined? Was that liner inspected? What type of double wall pipe is it and how much space is around it to combustible materials?
It isn't lined, it's an 8" flue. If we put in a 6" liner, do you think that would work?
 

gardenheather

New Member
Nov 30, 2021
11
Michigan
I forgot to answer, the pipe going into the flue, from about 4" out from the wall, is double walled, and there is 2" of high heat concrete between the double walled and the combustibles. The specs for that pipe said 2".
 

coaly

Fisher Moderator
Staff member
Dec 22, 2007
4,727
NE PA
We recently installed a vintage wood burning stove, and because it had no UL listing we went by the guidelines found at nasd online. I printed that information out, along with some other information I had researched. I highlighted all of the specs we were going by and I put it in with our permit application. The permit was granted, and the inspector just came and did not pass it. He says that he has no specs to judge it by, no way to know what size pipe it should need (the hole is 6 in so 6 in I guess?) He says he has no way to know if the chimney is too big or too small inside and that I should see that it's drafting into the room. I did not see any such thing. At any rate, he did not pass it, and the one thing that was keeping my son warm now cannot be legally used because if everything burns down the insurance won't cover anything. He lives with baseboard heat and he cannot afford it and neither can we afford to help him. The only advice the man gave me was to look up the model number and do some research on it to see if I can find specs. I cannot find any. The only thing I have is Kings Stove and Range Co., Sheffield, Alabama, Sun Oak, 17-c. That's everything I can see on the stove. Can somebody please help me? We put all this money and work into this, into getting it just as the specs were online, and we cannot afford to undo it and buy all new. If we could afford that, we could just pay his electric bill. I'm so desperate.
I don't see how they could even start the permit process without a UL Listed stove being installed. Michigan state is under 2015 International Mechanical Code that requires all appliances to be UL Listed. This would give the inspector what he needs to know for installation instead of asking you to find all this information on an antique stove that doesn't exist. He should have said, a UL approved stove with instructions gives all the criteria needed, and you need that type stove with the instructions. All he had to say is there is no UL label affixed to the stove.

Does the wall shield have an open space top and bottom for an intake and exhaust of heated air?

Burning wood, that stove is going to need to be be fed every couple hours. It needs coal. You really need an affordable wood stove such as an Englander found at the big box stores. The much reduced clearances make installation much easier, but should still have a 6 inch liner all the way, and probably needs to be insulated due to improper chimney clearances anyway.

Sometimes I'd like to ask these inspectors if their jurisdiction is hiring.
 

NorMi

Member
Nov 18, 2021
111
Northern LP, MI
I'm sorry that you may not be able to use the antique stove with the inspector, that is a bummer. I don't know if this will be helpful, but the cheapest new UL/EPA stove I have seen is a US1269E, they carry at tractor supply for $299. They also do no interest for 6 months on purchases if you can get the TS credit card, if it would help to spread out the cost. https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...stove-900-sq-ft-small-cast-iron-epa-certified

*They are not a very good stove, but you won't freeze to death with one, and they are legal. A friend had one but he replaced it.
 
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clancey

Minister of Fire
Feb 26, 2021
2,441
Colorado
Gardenheath: A bummer... But I took copies of the two assorted stoves the Englander Stoves as well as the Tractorsupply stove... The New Englander is a nice stove and you could see the wood burning which is very relaxing and pleasant and it is "in my opinion" because of the ambiance of it worth four to five hundred more...You can get a credit card from Home Depot as well as there would be a rebate on it because of its EPA Qualifications I believe clancey...
 

gardenheather

New Member
Nov 30, 2021
11
Michigan
I don't see how they could even start the permit process without a UL Listed stove being installed. Michigan state is under 2015 International Mechanical Code that requires all appliances to be UL Listed. This would give the inspector what he needs to know for installation instead of asking you to find all this information on an antique stove that doesn't exist. He should have said, a UL approved stove with instructions gives all the criteria needed, and you need that type stove with the instructions. All he had to say is there is no UL label affixed to the stove.

Does the wall shield have an open space top and bottom for an intake and exhaust of heated air?

Burning wood, that stove is going to need to be be fed every couple hours. It needs coal. You really need an affordable wood stove such as an Englander found at the big box stores. The much reduced clearances make installation much easier, but should still have a 6 inch liner all the way, and probably needs to be insulated due to improper chimney clearances anyway.

Sometimes I'd like to ask these inspectors if their jurisdiction is hiring.
Yes that's what we thought t
I'm sorry that you may not be able to use the antique stove with the inspector, that is a bummer. I don't know if this will be helpful, but the cheapest new UL/EPA stove I have seen is a US1269E, they carry at tractor supply for $299. They also do no interest for 6 months on purchases if you can get the TS credit card, if it would help to spread out the cost. https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...stove-900-sq-ft-small-cast-iron-epa-certified

*They are not a very good stove, but you won't freeze to death with one, and they are legal. A friend had one but he replaced it.

I don't see how they could even start the permit process without a UL Listed stove being installed. Michigan state is under 2015 International Mechanical Code that requires all appliances to be UL Listed. This would give the inspector what he needs to know for installation instead of asking you to find all this information on an antique stove that doesn't exist. He should have said, a UL approved stove with instructions gives all the criteria needed, and you need that type stove with the instructions. All he had to say is there is no UL label affixed to the stove.

Does the wall shield have an open space top and bottom for an intake and exhaust of heated air?

Burning wood, that stove is going to need to be be fed every couple hours. It needs coal. You really need an affordable wood stove such as an Englander found at the big box stores. The much reduced clearances make installation much easier, but should still have a 6 inch liner all the way, and probably needs to be insulated due to improper chimney clearances anyway.

Sometimes I'd like to ask these inspectors if their jurisdiction is hiring.
I forgot to say, the heat shield does have the opening at the top and bottom for venting.
 

gardenheather

New Member
Nov 30, 2021
11
Michigan
I'm sorry that you may not be able to use the antique stove with the inspector, that is a bummer. I don't know if this will be helpful, but the cheapest new UL/EPA stove I have seen is a US1269E, they carry at tractor supply for $299. They also do no interest for 6 months on purchases if you can get the TS credit card, if it would help to spread out the cost. https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...stove-900-sq-ft-small-cast-iron-epa-certified

*They are not a very good stove, but you won't freeze to death with one, and they are legal. A friend had one but he replaced it.
Thank you, I love that stove but it was too long for the hearth we already had put down.
 
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gardenheather

New Member
Nov 30, 2021
11
Michigan
IMG_20211204_142714_070.jpg
This is the new stove we bought. We ordered a chimney liner kit as well, from a different place, and it didn't come with a tee. Now we're trying to figure out if tees are interchangable or of we have to go brand specific. This is all new to us and very frustrating. 😥
 

clancey

Minister of Fire
Feb 26, 2021
2,441
Colorado
Looks like a very nice stove and I cannot help you with the tee question but someone might know on here...All this will pass and you will be sitting in front of it with a favorite drink and enjoying the warm air especially with the Michigan cold...lol Looks good..Other people need to help you with the hard questions at least too hard for me...old mrs clancey..
 

NorMi

Member
Nov 18, 2021
111
Northern LP, MI
Usually with single wall pipe it all fits up ok, with only minor tweaking required. With any double wall all bets are off, the interior diameter is usually ok but the outside diameter/air space dimensions are not really standardized I don't think.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
4,055
SE North Carolina
View attachment 287111
This is the new stove we bought. We ordered a chimney liner kit as well, from a different place, and it didn't come with a tee. Now we're trying to figure out if tees are interchangable or of we have to go brand specific. This is all new to us and very frustrating. 😥
You are wanting to connect a T to the end of the liner?
 

kennyp2339

Minister of Fire
Feb 16, 2014
6,845
07462
We ordered a chimney liner kit as well, from a different place, and it didn't come with a tee.
No T should be needed, your piping the stove from the stoves flue collar straight up to a 90 and into the pre-lined chimney.
 

71montess

New Member
Mar 27, 2021
78
Base camp
What specifications were provided to the inspector? What is the nasd site? The specs that should have been provided are in NFPA 211.

This antique is not going to have documentation. From what I can tell it is a coal stove. It sounds like the shortest path would be to change the stove to a wood stove that is UL tested, has documentation, a 6" flue, and is appropriately sized for the location.
I agree, and you can find used stoves at reasonable prices.
 
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