P61 vs P68 for 1600sqft 2 level house?

[bigeclipse]

Hello all,
I am tired of wood stove and want to convert to a pellet stove. The house is 1600 sqft two levels. It is not great but not bad for insulation. It is not open floor plan but has extremely low ceilings at 6ft 7inches. I live in the northeast in NY which we do get cold winters. typical is 20 degrees but we definitely see the teens and even below zero. I haver my eye on two stoves used. One is a P61 from 2009 in excellent condition for 1200$ and the other is a P68 brand new with only one pallet of pellets through it for 3500$ (I would offer 2800$). I don't want to buy too large nor too small. Will the p61 heat our entire house? We have a oil furnace but prefer to use as little oil as possible. Thank you!

 

[johneh]

First of all a pellet stove is a space heater not a furnace .
It may or may not heat your home depends on how
open it is . How well sealed . How well insulated.
If it were me I would buy the biggest BTU output stove
It is better to have to much heating capacity than
not enough when you need it
Just my 25 cents worth.

 

[bigeclipse]

First of all a pellet stove is a space heater not a furnace .
It may or may not heat your home depends on how
open it is . How well sealed . How well insulated.
If it were me I would buy the biggest BTU output stove
It is better to have to much heating capacity than
not enough when you need it
Just my 25 cents worth.

it was under my impression newer pellet stoves are basically replacing woodstoves? My woodstove heats the entire house no problem. The only time the regular heat in the house kicks on is when the wood stove dies early in the morning around 5am...so the furnace kicks on for 2 hours or so. My woodstove is a quadrafire rated to about 50,000 btus...how can that heat my entire house but not these pellet stoves rated to 60,000+? what am I missing? Thank you for your input!

 

[bags]

You would probably be OK with the P61 if you are heating everything with the wood stove now. But as mentioned above it is very nice to have those extra BTU's when and if needed. I am doing two levels here and 2,350 SQ FT with my P68. I have a fairly open layout but high ceilings and tons of windows and glass doors. The 68 does the job here even in the coldest of temps with ease.

Really you need to factor in the price difference between the two stoves but also keep things in perspective with the age of the P61 vs. the P68. The P68 you mention will likely be trouble free. The 2009 $1,200 P61 is a good deal if the stove is decent and mechanically sound. That said keep in mind it is 7 - 8 years old and has some mileage racked up. Parts could be heading south so figure in some repair costs and replacement parts.

For example a new Circuit Board $300 bucks?? just for the part. Igniter = $100 bucks etc; Being a used stove much depends on how well it was cared for previously. I bought a used 2006 PC45 (same stove chassis and body etc; as the P61 overall just older and able to burn 100% corn and / or pellets or a mix). I paid $1,600 for it three years ago and it was a good deal but I also had to get it up to speed somewhat. More time and elbow grease than parts money. Any Harman stove can burn up to a 50% corn mix regardless but that's another subject and discussion.

Older used stoves are not a bad thing at all if done correctly. I always use the analogy comparing a used stove to a used car and that sums it up well. There are excellent deals to be had or the infamous buyer beware.
Buyer bewares aren't bad deals if you are a mechanic but if you are wondering which end of the screw driver to use then that'll cost you.

It really boils down to the extra chunk of cash for the P68 and being newer (less likely to have issues) and throwing more heat if needed. You may not need it. Older used stoves for the right money are nothing to be afraid of. Harmans are great stoves and rarely problematic. With your low ceilings I'd be tempted on the more economical 61 but I am also a firm believer in the Go Big or Go Home Club. That said, $1,200 and $2,800 are vastly different numbers. As in $1,600 bucks and that is if you can get the 68 down to the $2,800.

Go to work on these sellers and make them get real serious on bottom dollar and then figure it out. Can you slim up the P61's price? $1,200 is a good deal but $1 grand cash is a great deal if it is an OK stove. Lower buy in costs also leaves a little fat for repairs etc;. What year id the P68? One ton burned sounds good but if that one ton was burned 5 years ago??? that would be a factor. Is it a demo at a dealer? I doubt you'd get the 68 down to $2 grand but maybe $2,500. Depends on how proud they are of their stove. For $3,500 I'd tell them to keep it and go the extra bit for a brand new in the box P68.

Can you see the 61 run to make sure it works as it should? Same for the 68 because both are used. The P68 has earned its keep here during some brutally cold snaps. I am not sure a P61 would heat what I am doing here with my P68 but that said the PC45 similar to the P61 does its job well too. Don't ask. I'm a design build contractor who kept some guys in pay checks at times too long and my house is too damn big. We mainly used the 2,350 SQ FT but it is totally over 4,000 SQ FT. I'll sell you a nice P68 for $2 bucks as long as you buy my house. Deal?

Maybe go in hard and heavy on the 68 to see and know what the bottom dollar is for sure. cash talks and BS walks. One thing you have in your favor it is already the second week of February and it is now a buyers market vs. a sellers. Question is bottom dollar on each stove and overall condition. Keep in mind these stoves will be big heavy boat anchors in 6 weeks. Which seller is more motivated to unload while they can vs. baby sitting their used stoves for 6 months after they miss the sale??? Many factors.

 

[bags]

Another option is keeping your wood stove setup as is and adding the P61If you could work that out location and space wise. Then heat primarily with pellets since you are tired of firewood. This would leave you a great cheap backup plan seldom used with the back to firewood if the power goes out for a time to still stay warm off the grid easy and cheap.

Wood ain't free even if it is free is my philosophy. I get it and I am also a wood to pellet convert. Call me a slacker...... Clean 40 pounders (bag of pellets) beats the hell out of wood busting, humping, stacking, and toting along with all the other fun. Wood is good for sure but it is what it is and I have been there,,,, Done that.

Don't get me wrong because I will always keep wood burning in the mix. If pellets get out of line price wise they can keep those one ton skids too. Everything has a price. Time is money as well.

The more heating options you have the better off you are and that leaves money in the bank or time to play. It is all a factor but what is better is that you can call your own shots as needed. I have hardly burned any wood since I installed my pellet rigs. I will also admit I bought a new NC-30 wood stove last spring because the easy and cheap backup option made sense. I still have my Woodmaster outdoor wood boiler.

The NC-30 wood stove was had thru a sale deal new for chump change comparatively speaking. Really too great of a deal to pass up. I have yet to burn one piece of wood in it yet but it would be fired up in a nano second if needed. Kind of my emergency heat backup plan if for some reason I went without electric for a time. Pellet stoves and the Woodmaster are dependent on the juice flowing thru the grid.

Electric loss is very rare but it is a possibility. Snow is not super common here but I've been pounded in and one time it took 6 days to get the roads cleared. It does snow here and you never know. The 6 day deal was a bunch of snow for here and the idiots on the state and county level fighting over who was responsible to clear it at that time or at least certain roads. Plus both state and county were slammed and overwhelmed trying to get it handled on the whole.
They figured that out STAT when an elderly lady died because a 4x4 ambulance could not get her out. She would have likely died anyway,,,, But.....

 

[bogieb]

Wood stoves and pellet stoves heat differently so they are not a necessarily a 1-to-1 replacement. Unfortunately I'm not technical to give you a good explanation on how the heat differs.

I have 1600 sq/ft (950 main floor and 650 basement) and my P61, which should be able to heat it handily, can't keep parts of the main floor warm if it is colder than say 30*. That is because my house isn't open concept, the main floor is really cut up into many rooms, the stairway opening on the main floor is at the very end of the house (and pointing at the outside wall) and I can't get a good convection going regardless of fan use, registers, register boosters etc. Additionally, I spent the first winter sleeping on the couch (room closest to stairway) because my bedrooms were in the low 50's and even high 40's at times. However, both bedrooms have 4 sides of cold air coming at them; ceiling (acoustical tiles do not hold any cold air back), floor (above unheated garage), and two outside walls. Once I put a smaller stove on the main floor, all my heating woes vanished. If I had it over to do again, I would have a smaller stove in the basement as the P61 is now overkill.

That is not to say a P61 or P68 won't work for your house, on paper they should, but it just may or may not.

 

[bigeclipse]

Another option is keeping your wood stove setup as is and adding the P61If you could work that out location and space wise. Then heat primarily with pellets since you are tired of firewood. This would leave you a great cheap backup plan seldom used with the back to firewood if the power goes out for a time to still stay warm off the grid easy and cheap.

Wood ain't free even if it is free is my philosophy. I get it and I am also a wood to pellet convert. Call me a slacker...... Clean 40 pounders (bag of pellets) beats the hell out of wood busting, humping, stacking, and toting along with all the other fun. Wood is good for sure but it is what it is and I have been there,,,, Done that.

Don't get me wrong because I will always keep wood burning in the mix. If pellets get out of line price wise they can keep those one ton skids too. Everything has a price. Time is money as well.

The more heating options you have the better off you are and that leaves money in the bank or time to play. It is all a factor but what is better is that you can call your own shots as needed. I have hardly burned any wood since I installed my pellet rigs. I will also admit I bought a new NC-30 wood stove last spring because the easy and cheap backup option made sense. I still have my Woodmaster outdoor wood boiler.

The NC-30 wood stove was had thru a sale deal new for chump change comparatively speaking. Really too great of a deal to pass up. I have yet to burn one piece of wood in it yet but it would be fired up in a nano second if needed. Kind of my emergency heat backup plan if for some reason I went without electric for a time. Pellet stoves and the Woodmaster are dependent on the juice flowing thru the grid.

Electric loss is very rare but it is a possibility. Snow is not super common here but I've been pounded in and one time it took 6 days to get the roads cleared. It does snow here and you never know. The 6 day deal was a bunch of snow for here and the idiots on the state and county level fighting over who was responsible to clear it at that time or at least certain roads. Plus both state and county were slammed and overwhelmed trying to get it handled on the whole.
They figured that out STAT when an elderly lady died because a 4x4 ambulance could not get her out. She would have likely died anyway,,,, But.....

Not sure we could fit the pellet stove in. the house is really small. About 900 square feet first floor and 700 upstairs. I would say do to the very low ceilings it would be comparable to heating a 1300 square foot house with regular 8ft ceilings. Looks like the P68 might not be only a year old I must have confused it with a different ad but it appears to come with extras which I have no idea what they are worth. What are your thoughts? Here are the 2 listings (broken link removed to https://albany.craigslist.org/for/5993532727.html) and (broken link removed to https://albany.craigslist.org/hsh/5970671704.html)

 

[bags]

The 68 is basically new. They retail for right at $4,200 bucks and sometimes Harman offers a small rebate or $100 off coupon for a new stove. I'm not sure what the current deal is if any. The trim kit is pricey from the dealers. That is the stainless trims, louvers, tile, etc; Bought from the dealer can add a hefty chunk. The tiles alone are north of $100. Just guessing is they likely have $5,000 into that stove new OTD setup as it is at least.

The $4,200 price is just a base model all black P68 stove. The stainless or brushed nickel trims etc; are nice but they are expensive. I believe they can be had for less than what dealers charge for sure though. Sales tax alone for me in KY at 6% would add $250 to the $4,200 = $4,500 OTD or very close rough math without any trims or accessories. Not sure what your sales tax would be but likely none "used." Plug in you tax rate for your state or figure out what applies there.

$2,800 would be a pretty good deal really on that P68. The P61 has auto igniter so that is a newer version or better than the manual light older models. The stove looks to be in decent shape and a good deal for $1,200. I question why they offer then exhaust vent / pipe for additional costs. They likely want to sell it separately because that stuff is not cheap to buy either for what it is. I guess they want to try to recoup some cash there also but who knows.

Either stove would likely serve you well so it is up to what your wallet is saying and your preference of a "new" more costly bigger set up or a more economical clean used 61. One thing is that you can always turn down the bigger stove. Me personally I'd probably do the 61 for less money. If the bear tile doesn't do it for you you can pop it out and replace it or just leave it black without it.

As I said though the 68 shown is very tempting. The 61 is a good deal too and much less cash. It is a very nice stove. The 68 is basically new with the trim bells and whistles and someone parted with a big chunk of cash so I think they already have a bottom dollar in mind. Not saying it is $3,500 but.... It may also come with a transferable warranty but I'd check because Harman and Harman dealers can be goofy about it. Another words, the dealer where the stove was originally bought might be the only dealer to honor any warranty. Call or contact both and tell them you are serious and just point blank ask what their bottom dollar is they will take.

 

[articcatbill]

I also converted from wood to pellet in October. I went with a P68 to get the extra capacity. But I was buying new, so it makes the decision different. Just as a point of reference I paid around 3700 for a new P68, it did not have all the fancy trim. Just a plain black P68, mine went into an unfinished basement so wasn't an issue. I was right around 4K installed. As others have mentioned that nickel trim is very pricey.

 

[ABusWrench]

I would think the P61 would be more than adequate for the job. I am heating a much larger brick "heat sink" with my P61 from the 1/2 unfinished basement. Heat and air movement in every home is different. I'm good till single digit degrees, then I just up the electric heat a tad to balance the temps out. Above that, it's all Harman heat. Another couple thoughts. On the P61 you will be able to run it more efficiently @ low burn. Read, shoulder seasons. The 61 will run @ a lower btu output than the 68. Hate opening the windows when you can't run it low enough! Use less pellets in those situations. With the low cost of the 61, you could throw another $6-800 @ it and you'd have an almost new stove for $2000. IMO jd

 

[alternativeheat]

If the P61 doesn't heat it neither will the P68. Since the wood stove does heat it , then I'd say either stove will too, based on the idea that obviously the house must be open enough for the wood heat to get around the house satisfactorily. I switched from a living room coal stove to the P61 heating 1800 sq ft, two story cape, with an off the main floor plan studio room as well, and the P61 with it's convection fan does a better job than the coal with no convection fan. It's a little more expensive to run because it uses more pellets than the coal stove did coal, in like for like conditions.. But no heat curve with the pellet stove, once up to temp, I can heat the main area of the house to 74, 24/7 all winter long. Neither coal or wood can do that. Coal more even a heat curve than wood but not like that.

 

[bogieb]

The price for that P68 is a tad on the high side IMO. You can buy brand new for just a couple bucks more.

That is a really good price for the P61. I can't say as I blame the people for selling the pipe separate. Usually they up the price and want to sell as a package deal, but many people either already have their own pipe set up, or the pipe configuration that the seller has won't work for the buyer. So, they have it out front that they will sell separate.

And seriously, for the temps you describe, and the size of your place, if the P61 won't do it then it is because of air flow issues and not heat output issues (my P61 will easily get it to 90* downstairs and barely work at it - the heat just doesn't like to travel in my place).

 

[bags]

Agreed on the $3,500 but if he could get that stove for $2,500 - $2,800 it would be a good deal. I would buy the P61 for his situation and that is a deal for $1,200 for sure. Even better if he could roll it out for a grand. I would have it strapped onto a dolly either way if I was looking.

 

[bogieb]

Agreed on the $3,500 but if he could get that stove for $2,500 - $2,800 it would be a good deal. I would buy the P61 for his situation and that is a deal for $1,200 for sure. Even better if he could roll it out for a grand. I would have it strapped onto a dolly either way if I was looking.

It never hurts to see if the seller of the P68 will deal. Not sure they would budge by $700-$1k, but there's only one way to find out. And you never know - they might deal on that P61 - although if they declined to reduce the price, I would not hesitate to pay the asking.

 

[bigeclipse]

The 68 is basically new. They retail for right at $4,200 bucks and sometimes Harman offers a small rebate or $100 off coupon for a new stove. I'm not sure what the current deal is if any. The trim kit is pricey from the dealers. That is the stainless trims, louvers, tile, etc; Bought from the dealer can add a hefty chunk. The tiles alone are north of $100. Just guessing is they likely have $5,000 into that stove new OTD setup as it is at least.

The $4,200 price is just a base model all black P68 stove. The stainless or brushed nickel trims etc; are nice but they are expensive. I believe they can be had for less than what dealers charge for sure though. Sales tax alone for me in KY at 6% would add $250 to the $4,200 = $4,500 OTD or very close rough math without any trims or accessories. Not sure what your sales tax would be but likely none "used." Plug in you tax rate for your state or figure out what applies there.

$2,800 would be a pretty good deal really on that P68. The P61 has auto igniter so that is a newer version or better than the manual light older models. The stove looks to be in decent shape and a good deal for $1,200. I question why they offer then exhaust vent / pipe for additional costs. They likely want to sell it separately because that stuff is not cheap to buy either for what it is. I guess they want to try to recoup some cash there also but who knows.

Either stove would likely serve you well so it is up to what your wallet is saying and your preference of a "new" more costly bigger set up or a more economical clean used 61. One thing is that you can always turn down the bigger stove. Me personally I'd probably do the 61 for less money. If the bear tile doesn't do it for you you can pop it out and replace it or just leave it black without it.

As I said though the 68 shown is very tempting. The 61 is a good deal too and much less cash. It is a very nice stove. The 68 is basically new with the trim bells and whistles and someone parted with a big chunk of cash so I think they already have a bottom dollar in mind. Not saying it is $3,500 but.... It may also come with a transferable warranty but I'd check because Harman and Harman dealers can be goofy about it. Another words, the dealer where the stove was originally bought might be the only dealer to honor any warranty. Call or contact both and tell them you are serious and just point blank ask what their bottom dollar is they will take.

Spoke to both. The P-68 is 4 years old and was "babied" by the owner. they have all their maintenance slips and inspections...etc. They also cleaned it routinely and it does "look" new to the naked eye. Everything is included (piping, ash vacuum, all the extras it came with like the ceramic logs, expanded hopper, heat shields...etc.) and wont go less than $3200 (they paid $5100 after taxes).The P61 is 7 years old and definitely looks it. Some pealing paint and what looks like pitting or rust under the paint? They also said they routinely cleaned it but also had it serviced and professionally cleaned once a year. They would like $1000 for the stove and $500 for the piping. thoughts?

 

[bogieb]

So I'm not sure how one "babies" a stove. I guess I'm a bad owner - clean it and load it and let it run. Can't get any more basic than that. maybe they mean they haven't run it that much? That could be since they have the "logs" - which you may find get in the way so don't end up using.

Regardless, I think this all comes down to finances. If you have the finances, the P68 doesn't sound like a bad deal. Actually, the hopper extension ($200-300 itself), pipe and vac are all things you would probably want anyway, so getting a package deal with all the goodies like that would be very nice.

If $3200 would stretch your budget, Go with the P61. You can sand it down and paint it. It is unlikely that the rust goes deep enough to be a problem (it could happen, but unlikely). You could go ahead and install it for use for the rest of the winter, then refurb over the summer. Or, if you aren't in a hurry to install, go ahead and sand/paint before installation. Just remember if you paint it, it will need to be "baked" and will emit a lot of fumes - so doing it during cold weather may not be a good solution

 

[Pete Zahria]

As others have mentioned that nickel trim is very pricey.

Yes it is..
But it shore is purdy...

Dan

 

[Pete Zahria]

But no heat curve with the pellet stove, once up to temp, I can heat the main area of the house to 74, 24/7 all winter long. Neither coal or wood can do that.

Harman Coal stoker is very much like the pellet stove... uses rice coal.. sorta like coal pellets..

Dan

 

[alternativeheat]

I dismissed a coal stoker because rice coal was hard to get around these parts. Wouldn't you know that a couple of years after we went with pellets, TSC started stocking rice coal. Well we are deep into pellets now so that's that. I would have liked the 85,000btu Reading coal stoker. But hey, pellet ash is easier to deal with, biodegradable.

 

[bags]

X2 with what Bogie said. To me it doesn't look like the 68 was used much. 4 years old and not hooked up now so that seems plausible. The logs I'm not sure of but as mentioned I could see them possibly getting left out just for easy of use and scraping the pot etc but some may like them. Basically you'd be getting an almost new stove there and saving a couple of thousand vs. a new one.

I doubt it would have any warranty though just because of the age or sale date. I wouldn't let that worry you if you are fairly handy. It really does boil down to have your budget is telling you to do and if you want to work on and pretty up the 61. Either stove would heat your place and you can set the temp where you find it comfy and either will keep it at that temp.

Another option is you could buy a new Castle Serenity for $1,000 or less and it may do the job. These stoves have some fans here and are a good bang for the buck. They are not a Harman but seem to be solid stoves with happy owners. Many threads here about them and great reviews everywhere including Home Depot and so forth. If needed you could buy two and find another location for the second if needed or you have that option. Ace Hardware and TSC have ran sales on them for $799 if I recall but not sure that is to be had as of now.

I'd also bet that the P68 could be bought for $3,000. You could say 'Hey it is used and 4 years old and if something did go wrong you never know." I don't think you would have any issues though. It is kind of a tough call because of price ranges and conditions etc; If they were closer in money I'd go for the 68 vs. the 61 but you are talking about a couple of grand.

 

[alternativeheat]

A P61 would be a good fit in that house with plenty of reserve. My house is probably looser than that one and 1800 sq ft and I've never run the P61 over 2/3 capacity and that was -6 out in 40 mph wind. If this house was tighter a P43 would heat it, which is actually correct by specification.

 

[bigeclipse]

A P61 would be a good fit in that house with plenty of reserve. My house is probably looser than that one and 1800 sq ft and I've never run the P61 over 2/3 capacity and that was -6 out in 40 mph wind. If this house was tighter a P43 would heat it, which is actually correct by specification.

Is there any negative with going with a P68 over the P61 minus cost?

 

[bags]

Is there any negative with going with a P68 over the P61 minus cost?

Not really besides costing more money but it does come with many high dollar extras. The 61 would do the job too though. I'll put it this way. With the home you are trying to heat if you were buying a new stove trying to decide between the new 61 or a new 68 I'd recommend the 61. That said you are looking at used so your options there are what they are.

During the shoulder seasons when temps aren't so cold but my place requires some heat I just turn my stove down accordingly. But when it is brutally cold it is nice to have the extra BTU's for sure. Just tonight it will be a low about 50*. High today was 65* and these temps are way above average but I'll take them. I ran my stove this morning for awhile and shut it down about 11 AM or noon. It is still 70* inside now on my wall stat.

For tonight I'll set the room temp on my P68 to 72* before I go to bed and it will likely fire up but will run for just awhile and taper down or off. Then it will fire back up as needed and I'll wake up to a 72* house tomorrow morning. Basically you can set these Harmans to any temp you like and they will keep your place at that temp until you change something or adjust your temp or settings.

The P68 is a bit oversized for your house but since they have room temp probes and can maintain any temp you set them to the P68 would work although really more stove than you need. Another point is that the P61 = 61K BTUs. The P68 = 68,000BTUs. There is only a 7K difference on max output between these two stoves.

Pellet stoves that can be set to run on a certain temp are not like buying a wood stove that is too big for a home where they will burn you out. The pellet stove will get up to temp and tapper off or even go off completely. Then when heat is needed fire back up. Wood stoves do not work like that although you could build smaller fires in them trying to adjust the heat down Or burn a fire for awhile and let it go and then build another fire when the coolness creeps in.

 

[bogieb]

There isn't any minus that I can see (besides cost). The clearances are the same, which I checked out because I thought that could be a worry. The more I look at all the extras, the more I like the P68. Thos side shields are not cheap, and as I mentioned the hopper extension isn't either. You'll get everything you could ever potentially look at getting later for the P61, so if you can afford it, go for it. Plus, it is only 4 years old versus a 9 year old. Yeah, these are tanks but wear and tear eventually affects everything.

I will mention that the hearth size required for the P61 (minimum) is 28.5 d x 24.75 w. The P68 hearth needs to be at least 33 d x 25W. (and the clearances are as shown in the picture (from my P61 manual so the hearth size shown is for that, but the side/back clearances are the same)

 

[bogieb]

Here are the specs for the P68.