Painted hearth and insert

[OKchiefsfan]

I just picked up a Lopi Revere insert last weekend and have been doing a little research on installing it in our masonry fireplace. I'm new to all of this but believe that I just have a masonry fireplace with some kind of metal liner on the inside. Our fireplace does not have any kind of a blower so we have never used it. Our hearth and outside bricks of the fireplace have been painted with Behr interior paint and I was wondering if you all thought that the heat from the insert would make the paint bubble or create paint fumes in the house? I have talked to two dealers and one said it would ruin the paint and one said it wouldn't. Just wondering if anybody else has an insert that is resting on a painted hearth? I'm also getting ready to attempt to remove the damper. I have the day off tomorrow and am trying to psych myself up for the task of removing it. I called the dealer about a ss liner install and they wanted about $900 to come out and do it. I'm too cheap to pay that so I guess I'll just dig in. I saw a flexible ss liner on ebay for $254 shipped so I guess I will probably go with that. My fireplace also has a pipe for a gas start. I had planned on leaving it because my insert won't go back far enough to hit it. I was curious if any of you saw a problem with leaving it? Any and all help/advice on attempting this install will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.


Phil

 

[Eaglecraft]

I just picked up a Lopi Revere insert last weekend and have been doing a little research on installing it in our masonry fireplace. I'm new to all of this but believe that I just have a masonry fireplace with some kind of metal liner on the inside. Our fireplace does not have any kind of a blower so we have never used it. Our hearth and outside bricks of the fireplace have been painted with Behr interior paint and I was wondering if you all thought that the heat from the insert would make the paint bubble or create paint fumes in the house? I have talked to two dealers and one said it would ruin the paint and one said it wouldn't. Just wondering if anybody else has an insert that is resting on a painted hearth? I'm also getting ready to attempt to remove the damper. I have the day off tomorrow and am trying to psych myself up for the task of removing it. I called the dealer about a ss liner install and they wanted about $900 to come out and do it. I'm too cheap to pay that so I guess I'll just dig in. I saw a flexible ss liner on ebay for $254 shipped so I guess I will probably go with that. My fireplace also has a pipe for a gas start. I had planned on leaving it because my insert won't go back far enough to hit it. I was curious if any of you saw a problem with leaving it? Any and all help/advice on attempting this install will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.


Phil

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Phil:

The bricks adjacent to the metal surround will get warm to the touch, but will they get hot enough to cause a problem? Doubtful. Acrylic latex should not create fumes just because it warms. I have found that the space immediately below my insert - Clydesdale - is relatively cool to the touch. The fan keeps the air moving around the stove. This results in cool areas immediately under the stove.

I suggest that you insulate your SS flex pipe before you install it. It will cost about $250 for a 25 foot kit, but the improved performance will make it worthwhile. Also, do install a block-off plate to keep the heat from going up your chimney.

Looks like you may have a Superior Heatform fireplace. There is much info on the site about dealing with a Heatform. Many of us on this site have "carved" out a Heatform to get the SS flex pipe to the stove.

Good luck with your install...

 

[OKchiefsfan]

Thanks for the reply Eaglecraft! I was wondering if I needed to insulate the liner. I asked the dealer and he said they never insulate them. I live in the middle of the Oklahoma Panhandle and we have pretty mild winters, so I wasn't for sure if I needed to or not. I just measured the chimney and it appears to be about 13 ft tall. Will there be any problems with that or is that high enough for a good draft? I measured my clay liner on top and it is 13" x 13". I guess I will have plenty of room with an insulated liner except when I try to get it through the damper hole. The damper hole is 6 inches wide.

I'm glad to hear that the paint shouldn't be a problem. I kind of jumped the gun without checking on the painted hearth before I bought the stove. The insert I bought is a 2005 Lopi Revere with a blower. I got the stove off of a classified site for $750. Does that seem like a pretty good deal?

Thanks again Eaglecraft for your help. I appreciate it.

Phil

 

[Pallet Pete]

Welcome to the forums. I believe that paint has a 90 to 130f limit generally speaking. Due to that I would recommend removing the paint on the brick so it does not stink up and fall off or worse yet light up. also make sure your hearth in front meets code for depth and r value.

Pete

 

[OKchiefsfan]

Thanks for the reply Pete! Just wondering how I would determine the R value of the hearth? I have no idea how to figure that out.

 

[Pallet Pete]

Your welcome this link should give you the info you need to determine the r value of the hearth (broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/horvalue.htm)

Good luck
Pete

 

[etiger2007]

I had to cut up my heat form fire place to install my insert, it will take a few hours to cut out the damper and get the liner down. My liner is uninsulated , should it be probably but it was hard enough to get down the chimney without the insulation, although I have no creosote or draft issues I wonder what I'm missing without the insulation. I used a disc grinder to cut mine out. Gook luck and keep us posted.

 

[mcollect]

I am wondering about how close the mantel is to the stove, to me it looks too close for my insert. Check for clearances for your particular stove.

 

[OKchiefsfan]

Mcollect, I will have to move the mantle up. I'm curious as to what to use for a heat shield once I move it up. I'll need to do some homework on that issue. etiger2007, I have a sawzall and a disc grinder so I will try both and see how it goes. If I remember right, I just need to cut off the closest damper pivot bracket and one side of the steel rod that the damper hinges on. Is that correct? It is really hard to see any steel rod on the side of the damper. Thanks for the replies!

 

[OKchiefsfan]

Pallet Pete, I am a little concerned about the R value of my hearth. This may seem like a dumb question so I apologize but what holds the top layer of bricks up below the top of the hearth? I assume it is more bricks but am concerned that it may be wood. If it is wood than I would not have the R value that I need. If it is more bricks under the top layer of the hearth than I should not have any worries correct? Thanks for your help!

 

[Nick Mystic]

If your chimney is inside your house, as opposed to being outside, then you should be okay with a non-insulated liner. If you use a block off plate at the top of your fireplace opening and lay some insulation on it and then add a wrap or two of insulation on the top of the liner just below your top cap that should provide pretty good insulation for your liner since enough heat will get inside your clay tile liner to keep the pipe warm. I just did an installation in my 13" x 18" chimney flue with that sort of set up. When I cut out my flue damper I made an opening 8" x 8" so I'd have a little wiggle room with my 6" liner to get a good match up with my stove. I then covered the 8" hole in my stop plate with a 13"x13" top plate that I modified to get a tight fit around my 6" liner. I then caulked it with high temperature caulk and screwed it to the bottom of my stop plate. You can view a photo of my stop plate in an earlier post titled: Got the new Jotul F 600 up and running!

 

[Pallet Pete]

Pallet Pete, I am a little concerned about the R value of my hearth. This may seem like a dumb question so I apologize but what holds the top layer of bricks up below the top of the hearth? I assume it is more bricks but am concerned that it may be wood. If it is wood than I would not have the R value that I need. If it is more bricks under the top layer of the hearth than I should not have any worries correct? Thanks for your help!

That's a good question on older hearths many have all brick however due to weight concerns some have plywood boxes covered with brick its a crap shoot. I would pull up a brick and look if you can it is easy to mortar it back in place later.

Pete

 

[Eaglecraft]

Thanks for the reply Eaglecraft! I was wondering if I needed to insulate the liner. I asked the dealer and he said they never insulate them. I live in the middle of the Oklahoma Panhandle and we have pretty mild winters, so I wasn't for sure if I needed to or not. I just measured the chimney and it appears to be about 13 ft tall. Will there be any problems with that or is that high enough for a good draft? I measured my clay liner on top and it is 13" x 13". I guess I will have plenty of room with an insulated liner except when I try to get it through the damper hole. The damper hole is 6 inches wide.

I'm glad to hear that the paint shouldn't be a problem. I kind of jumped the gun without checking on the painted hearth before I bought the stove. The insert I bought is a 2005 Lopi Revere with a blower. I got the stove off of a classified site for $750. Does that seem like a pretty good deal?

Thanks again Eaglecraft for your help. I appreciate it.

Phil

Phil:

Regarding insulating your SS flex liner: Here's what "Hearth Handbook for Building Officials; Solid Fuel Hearth Systems" (HPB Education Foundation, 2nd Edition, 2009) has to say:

page 45, "Performance and safety can be improved with a stainless steel or poured liner system by:

proper sizing
insulation that keeps flue gases warmer (reduced creosote and maintenance)
easier maintenance
tested temperature limits."

The dealer that told you he never insulates flue liners reminds me of the Treasure of Sierra Madre: "We don't need no stinking insulation..."

The thing of it is, getting that flex liner down the flue and connected to your stove is no easy task. You won't want to do it again any time soon. Why not do the job right the first time? Sure, others may discourage you from insulating. But the additional cost to insulate compared to the total overall effort/cost is not significant, IMHO.

By the way, a 13 foot high chimney, plus 2 foot for the stove may not give you sufficient draft. Why not stack all the cards in your favor and insulate? You may have to extend your flue a bit higher, in any case. Go to the web site that sells your stove and see what the manufacturer requires.

With all due respect to Pete, I'm not convinced that the paint will be a problem. It's not easy to take all that paint off brick. Were I in your shoes, I would try it and see what happens. The surrounds are easy to remove, so if there is a problem, you can take the paint off after the insert is installed. The painted bricks under the stove shouldn't be a problem.

 

[OKchiefsfan]

Nick Mystic, my chimney is on an outside wall so maybe I should plan on insulating the liner. It is funny that the dealer said they never do in our area and they still wanted $730 for just the single wall flex liner kit with no insulation. Pete, I am debating whether to just put a piece of wonderboard or cement board under the stove and call it good. I probably will go ahead a chisel a brick out tomorrow and see what I have.

I have discovered something a little bit crazy about my metal fireplace liner. I believe it is a Heatform like Eaglecraft said it was but I can not find any tubes or any way for heat to get back into the room. I have looked at the different models and all of them seem to have a pathway for heat to get back into the room. This liner looks like all the heat goes up the chimney. I guess you would get a little radiant heat but that is it. My house was built in 1966 so maybe this is an early Heatform or maybe one made similar to it. Talk about inefficient! Anyway, we are all looking forward to some wood heat!

 

[OKchiefsfan]

The manual for my stove calls for a minimum of 15' chimney height. With my chimney being a bit shorter, maybe I better go ahead and insulate.

 

[Eaglecraft]

Nick Mystic, my chimney is on an outside wall so maybe I should plan on insulating the liner. It is funny that the dealer said they never do in our area and they still wanted $730 for just the single wall flex liner kit with no insulation. Pete, I am debating whether to just put a piece of wonderboard or cement board under the stove and call it good. I probably will go ahead a chisel a brick out tomorrow and see what I have.

I have discovered something a little bit crazy about my metal fireplace liner. I believe it is a Heatform like Eaglecraft said it was but I can not find any tubes or any way for heat to get back into the room. I have looked at the different models and all of them seem to have a pathway for heat to get back into the room. This liner looks like all the heat goes up the chimney. I guess you would get a little radiant heat but that is it. My house was built in 1966 so maybe this is an early Heatform or maybe one made similar to it. Talk about inefficient! Anyway, we are all looking forward to some wood heat!

Phil:

You may have a "Superior Hi-Form Damper Model L" See the attached file and look for model L. This model seems to have no heat tubes. http://ia600702.us.archive.org/29/items/HeatrormFireplaces/HeatformFireplaces.pdf

 

[OKchiefsfan]

You may be right Eaglecraft. That is the closest one to what I have.

 

[mellow]

Remove the gas pipe, or at least cut it and cap it before it enters the firebox.

 

[OKchiefsfan]

Here are a few pics of what I discovered when removing some mortar on the hearth. I chiseled out the mortar between the bricks in the middle of the hearth and found that the mortar and brick is a little over 4 inches deep. I discovered a bed of mortar on the bottom side of the brick as well. Seems like there would be something down there holding all the bricks and mortar up. Should I remove some more mortar in another spot and see what is there or do you think it will be this way all over? I was expecting to hit plywood or more brick. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't a little over 4 1/2 inches on the hearth enough R value that I shouldn't have anything to worry about there? Mellow, I will cap it at the bottom of the elbow where it enters the firebox. It looks like I will have the room to cap it there. Thanks for the replies!







Link Removed

 

[Pallet Pete]

It sounds like you will be fine then the manual calls for .018" thickness minimum. The next question know is do you have the hearth deep enough for code? It needs to be 16" in front of the door in depth according to the manual.

Pete

 

[OKchiefsfan]

I know my hearth doesn't extend out enough to meet code. Any ideas?

 

[Pallet Pete]

It would be a simple matter if your handy to build a box and brick it up to match the current lip. If you do it right it will look like it was always there. Mortar is easy to do and you can cheat with premixed from home depot or lowes.

Pete

 

[OKchiefsfan]

Got the damper cut out and the liner opened up. Little bit of a hack job on the upper shelf but I was just glad to get that thing cut out. I I made the opening aproximately 9 inches wide. I'm afraid I'll feel some new muscles in the morning. (haha) Is there another simple solution to the hearth Pete? I was just thinking about putting one of those fire resistant mats in front to it and calling it good.

 

[Eaglecraft]

Got the damper cut out and the liner opened up. Little bit of a hack job on the upper shelf but I was just glad to get that thing cut out. I I made the opening aproximately 9 inches wide. I'm afraid I'll feel some new muscles in the morning. (haha) Is there another simple solution to the hearth Pete? I was just thinking about putting one of those fire resistant mats in front to it and calling it good.

Phil:

Looks like you did a pretty good job cutting out that HeatForm. You are about ready to go...

Regarding floor protection and the use of mats, there are two factors to consider: ember protection and thermal protection. The stove manufacture will have certain specification for thermal protection, which normally meets ember protection as well. You didn't mention pulling a building permit for this job, which is often required in many jurisdictions. I mention this only because the building codes will often defer to the manufacture's requirements. That is, a code compliant job will meet the manufacturer's specs. There may not be specific language in the code that addresses a point in question.

Often a building inspector sent out to enforce the code may not be knowledgable in requirements for woodstoves, inserts, fireplaces, etc. That person may request to see a copy of the manufacturer's instructions and will use that as his/her set of code requirements.

Here is what the Heart Handbook for Building Officials: Solid Fuel Systems says about fire resistant mats:

page 22,

W3.3 Floor Portection

"Floor protection under a woodstove and the minimum extension distance around the woodstove must be considered carefully. Manufacturers use different testing methods to determine the floor protection requirements that are then included in their installation manuals. Some wood heaters are tested without thermal protection under them, so their instructions show only the required dimensions and position of the floor protection, which serves basically as spark/ember protection.

Other woodstoves are tested with a defined thickness of floor protection that has a certain resistance to the flow of heat through it. Stoves tested in this manner must show in their instruction the minimum thermal protection value (expressed in K, thermal conductivity, or in R, thermal resistance), how to calculate this protection for alternate materials, as well as the dimensions of the floor protection.

Some companies offer a listed floor protection (stove board or hearth pad). The safety standard to which they are listed is in transition from its status as a UL "outline of Investigation" to full standard status. Hearth pads tested to the outline of investigation may not be tested for thermal protection, or if tested, may not include the specific k or R factor attained in testing. Some of these products may contain combustible materials. As such, they are adequate for spark/ember protection, but not for thermal protrction required by the listing of some woodsatoves. And it may not be possible to determine whether thermally tested pads provide adequate thermal protection for some woodstoves if the specific k/R factors are not provided.

As the full UL 1618 standard is used by manufacturers, the listing will indicate whether the pad/board is only for spark/ember protection... or also provides thermal protection...."

This section on floor protection goes on but I think that you get the gist of it. Let the buyer beware. It's up to you to determine if the pad/board that you buy meets the stove manufacturer's requirements. I do know this: a hearth pad will not meet IRC building code requirements for new construction.

There is another problem with hearth pads: There are not typically nailed down, screwed down or glued down. So they can be kicked out of place. You can also trip over them. A better solution is a new hearth extension that meets the spark and thermal protection required by the stove manufacturer.

I wish you continued good luck with your install...

 

[etiger2007]

I have a hearth extender in front of my stove and I bought it for about $60 delivered. Eaglecraft is right they are not secured to the floor, In my application that is fine with me. I have never had an issue with it being out of place, if it gets kicked we simply fix it, I also like the fact in the summer I can store it under the sofa in the room and not look at it for a few months. Hey I just noticed this is my 1,000 post Im going to Disney World.