PE 2 gram "LE" stoves

[Nigel459]

Hi all,

Searched here to no avail (google too)...

I'm stove shopping again, this time for the lakeside cabin, and came across this very interesting page on the Pacific Energy website.

(broken link removed to https://www.pacificenergy.net/support/tools/2gramemissions/)

It cites the existence of the following "sub-two-gram-2020-ready stoves:"

2020 EPA Ready:

Super LE
Super Classic LE
Alderlea T5 LE
Alderlea T5 Classic LE
Alderlea T6 LE
Summit LE
Summit Classic LE
Summit Insert LE

(Also, some very interesting reading on their stance on cat stoves on the bottom link at:
(broken link removed to https://www.pacificenergy.net/index.php/download_file/view/1285/397/)
TLDR: They conclude that cat stoves are bad for the environment as they are unreliable and troublesome to operate. I have a BK and love it, for the record. Their argument is valid but hard to substantiate in my opinion. I have no stance, just found it interesting. I know, of course this is their stance as they sell non-cat stoves!)

There's no other info about the "LE" stoves on their website or found via Google. I'm strongly considering the T5 for our cabin and wonder if there are innovations coming soon. I realize those "innovations" may be simply not letting you cut the air down as much or some such thing, but does anyone know what the details are on these LE stoves?

Thanks

 

[begreen]

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

 

[Nigel459]

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

Glad to provide something of interest... but if you don't know I bet nobody does...

When I saw the link that says "educate yourself about catalytic" I thought they were going to offer cat stoves! Then I read the document...

In your experienced opinion, is there a chance the LE stoves simply don't throttle down as much, in order to ensure a clean burn? Or am I backwards on that theory?

 

[begreen]

I'd just be speculating. PE strives to build tough, simple stoves so I hope they have met their goal with a simple solution. We'll see.

 

[Nigel459]

Ok thanks, maybe I'll send them an email... we're in no rush for the lakeside stove.

I find it interesting (suspicious?) that they are broadcasting the fact that these stoves are ready for 2020 but not telling us how they achieved the LE. You'd think they'd be proud to tell us how...

 

[begreen]

I find it interesting (suspicious?) that they are broadcasting the fact that these stoves are ready for 2020 but not telling us how they achieved the LE. You'd think they'd be proud to tell us how...

Could be a teaser as they prepare marketing materials and the web pages.

 

[bcrtops]

Probably just a reconfiguration of the air supply/holes in the baffle to maintain/create a cleaner burn.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Maybe hotter air being injected to cause earlier light off.

 

[begreen]

The page continues to update. Looks like the original 2 & 3 cu ft core stoves will have an LE model. No info on the Vista or Neo lines. Now with this statement:

Our mission is to provide efficient, reliable, consumer friendly, next generation products with fully adjustable burn rates and non-catalytic technology.

Pacific Energy will meet or exceed the 2.0 g/hr regulation on all our products. Our almost 40 years of developing world-class solid fuel appliances has convinced us that catalytic technology and single burn rates are an inferior, unreliable way to achieve lower emissions and more importantly an unnecessary compromise.

Maybe we'll hear or see something from HPBA this year.

 

[webby3650]

They have an interesting, yet skewed view of cat stoves.. understanding though, being a non-cat company. What I found interesting at the HPB expo this week were the amount of stove manufacturers that did not display the new 2020 certification on the stove, but yet claimed to be “good to go” no problem. ? Several of the major players were displaying this certification, and guess what, they all had cats! Either added, or an improved design. From what I’m hearing, manufacturers are having a really tough time obtaining a certification without adding a cat, regardless of what their claim is.

 

[begreen]

Yes, that was predicted. I see that Hearthstone will be returning to some cat solutions. Others not.

Some good designs will make it without a cat. The 30NC rates at 1.63gms/hr. Not sure what would need improving there. Did you check out the Osburn 2000 or other SBI stoves? Were they cats? Did PE have any LE stoves on display or behind the curtains?

 

[webby3650]

Hearthstones will have cats, I wouldn’t consider it a solution though. More problematic than anything. I have a feeling many of the manufacturers are going to do whatever it takes to squeeze through 2020 regs, good or bad. Hopefully they will stand behind their products.

 

[Newburnerwisconsin]

Yes, that was predicted. I see that Hearthstone will be returning to some cat solutions. Others not.

Some good designs will make it without a cat. The 30NC rates at 1.63gms/hr. Not sure what would need improving there. Did you check out the Osburn 2000 or other SBI stoves? Were they cats? Did PE have any LE stoves on display or behind the curtains?

Any info on Jotul F55 or TL 50? Love the simplicity of them. Really don't care bout emissions as I am way out in the sticks. If Englander can get to 1.63 why not everyone else?

 

[begreen]

IIRC Jotul was one of the opposition leaders to the new EPA regs. A few years back I spoke with some Jotul reps about reintroducing cat technology. They were quite adamantly opposed to returning to what they considered a major headache. But maybe with steel stoves like the F55 they will be revisiting the cat option? We'll see.

 

[webby3650]

Any info on Jotul F55 or TL 50? Love the simplicity of them. Really don't care bout emissions as I am way out in the sticks. If Englander can get to 1.63 why not everyone else?

Manufacturers are making lots of claims, always have. The new testing procedures require them to use actual cord wood rather than a bundle of kiln dried 2x2’s. Now manufacturers actually have to prove the product in a more “real world” setting. Ones that were officially certified were proudly displaying their certs, many had none on display...

 

[Newburnerwisconsin]

Hi all,

Searched here to no avail (google too)...

I'm stove shopping again, this time for the lakeside cabin, and came across this very interesting page on the Pacific Energy website.

(broken link removed to https://www.pacificenergy.net/support/tools/2gramemissions/)

It cites the existence of the following "sub-two-gram-2020-ready stoves:"

2020 EPA Ready:

Super LE
Super Classic LE
Alderlea T5 LE
Alderlea T5 Classic LE
Alderlea T6 LE
Summit LE
Summit Classic LE
Summit Insert LE

(Also, some very interesting reading on their stance on cat stoves on the bottom link at:
(broken link removed to https://www.pacificenergy.net/index.php/download_file/view/1285/397/)
TLDR: They conclude that cat stoves are bad for the environment as they are unreliable and troublesome to operate. I have a BK and love it, for the record. Their argument is valid but hard to substantiate in my opinion. I have no stance, just found it interesting. I know, of course this is their stance as they sell non-cat stoves!)

There's no other info about the "LE" stoves on their website or found via Google. I'm strongly considering the T5 for our cabin and wonder if there are innovations coming soon. I realize those "innovations" may be simply not letting you cut the air down as much or some such thing, but does anyone know what the details are on these LE stoves?

Thanks

I would really like to see these. I wonder just what they did to get to 2.0 grams. Especially if this is a non-cat solution.

 

[begreen]

I would really like to see these. I wonder just what they did to get to 2.0 grams. Especially if this is a non-cat solution.

Visually I wouldn't expect a big change. But who knows? Wait a year and you'll start seeing them on the market.

 

[SuperJ]

I think it's a lot more complicated than just a single number. Some of the existing stoves have a number that appears to be below the limit, but there are rules about warmup and time limits to meet as well, and probably a variety of burn rates with deviation limits. So an existing sub 2.0 stove may not actually meet 2020 regs even if it appears to run below the limit.

I never understood the idea of an arbitrary limit without factoring in the heat output, 20,000btu/hr at 2.0 grams is a lot dirtier relative to its output, than 60,000btu/hr at 2.0 grams.

My other concern is that we'll get another round of poorly implemented bandaid cats, and then be subjected to another 2 decades of combuster FUD.

This kinda feels like the car emissions issues of the 70's, eventually everyone figured out how to make a cat work for basically the lifetime of a car. But, there was a lot of whining initially (and still is, people are always pulling their cats off performance cars for a tiny incremental gain, but several orders of magnitude higher emissions)./

 

[Nigel459]

I would really like to see these. I wonder just what they did to get to 2.0 grams. Especially if this is a non-cat solution.

I did email them a while back when I was shopping around. Should have updated the thread... A rep promptly replied. He said that the LE stoves were not in production yet, and that they experimented with a few possible solutions but “managed to avoid catalytic combusters.”

 

[distox]

Hi there,
Just registered today! This thread is interesting as I am shopping for a new stove. New emission rules just kicked in for Montreal. I am perfectly happy with my current Regency but can no longer use it because it does not meet new regulations of 2.5 gr/hour. It does 3. Grrr. In my quest for a new stove I came across a store in Montreal that claims to have a Super LE in stock in the store. It looks like a plain Super. I even took a picture of it to show my wife. After reading this thread, I was inspired to write this post.

 

[begreen]

Keep us posted distox. I'm waiting to hear what tweaks they made to reduce emissions.

 

[jetsam]

They still don't list LE models in the main section of their website.

Get us a picture of the data plate on that stove if you get a chance!

 

[distox]

According to Ian from PE, the LE is now in production and the website will be updated shortly. He sent me a pdf of the operations manual but it didn't reveal much. It had a picture of the data plate with the word sample printed over it. When I get a chance to go back to the store, I'll take a picture of the data plate.

 

[SculptureOfSound]

Do you think that most non cats will just go to a single (high) burn rate? Non cats tend to burn a lot cleaner when burning on high.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I think you are going to see shallower fireboxes. A low height will get temps up fast and keep them there longer.