Please help me decide between these 3 Englanders

[crcurrie]

I've never owned a wood stove and am trying to decide which to purchase for a cabin we're building in NW Pennsylvania. We're on a strict budget and don't plan ourselves to use the stove for continuous heat; however, we may rent it to others who might use it that way. The cabin is 1000 sq ft -- an open main floor and a loft with three small bedrooms. The criteria I have are in this approximate order: low initial cost; durability; low operating cost; ease of use and maintenance; energy conservation; attractiveness (the appliance itself and window to see the fire).

From my research, I've zeroed in on Englanders since they seem to have pretty good reviews and good pricing. I've searched Craigslist and have come up with three options:

17-VL $400 (never used)
12-FP $500 (never used)
13-NC $600 (one year old)

I can get the 17-VL new from Northern Tool for $499 plus $100 delivery. For the resale stoves above, I'm figuring on about $100 to pay my contractor to haul it back, except that the owner of the 13-NC will deliver his for $50.

The 17-VL is small (perhaps not as durable?) but it's EPA approved and so might heat my 1000 sf, well-insulated cabin. The 12-FB is not EPA-approved but perhaps is easier to use -- particularly if continuous heating isn't needed? The 13-NC might be more stove than we need, but if the stove ends up being used extensively for winter heating, maybe the best bet?

For those who know Englander models, do you have any tips, insights or advice?

Thanks in advance!

Chris

 

[begreen]

I would stick with the EPA models 17VL and 13NC. The 13NC is better sized for the place, but note that it has stiff hearth requirements and will need side shielding if clearances are close.The 17VL is a fine stove and with easier installation requirements, but with a smaller firebox. If you want Englander new, check out www.overstockstoves.com, shipping included.

But I would also consider some alternatives like a True North TN19 stove or a Century S244? or a US Stove 2000 (tractor supply).

 

[jeff_t]

I think you can get a new 13 for less if you keep your eyes open. If you build a hearth for it, you should be set for any other stove you put there in the future.
I do like that True North stove.

 

[Dix]

The 13 is going to give you a longer burn time than the 17. The fire box size is key. Probably a max of 3 hours ob the 17 with seasoned wood, and a max of 6 hours with the 13.

If your looking for sustained heat, I'd go with the 13. If your looking for longer burn times, I'd shop for a 30.

Welcome to the forums

 

[BrowningBAR]

If your looking for longer burn times, I'd shop for a 30.

For 1,000 sq ft, that is overkill, BUT, it is for a cabin in a very cold climate. It might work and it might be a good option depending upon the cabin. I know I'd want to be able to burn the cold out of a cabin as quickly as possible when I get there and the 30 should do it pretty damn quickly.

Small fires from that point on should keep them from being too warm unless this is a very well insulated and tight cabin... which they usually aren't.

But, I also like being really warm when it is cold out, so my advice may not be worthwhile in this particle circumstance.

 

[begreen]

"The 17-VL is small (perhaps not as durable?) but it's EPA approved and so might heat my 1000 sf, well-insulated cabin"

Let's not go off the deep end here. The 30NC is too big for this application.

 

[Dix]

"The 17-VL is small (perhaps not as durable?) but it's EPA approved and so might heat my 1000 sf, well-insulated cabin"

Let's not go off the deep end here. The 30NC is too big for this application.

I don't think so. Burn times are key.

Depends on the burn times desired, BG. The 13 is 6 hour max, really max with optimum seasoned wood, draft, install, etc ( we get tops 5 with the 13). A smaller fire can be built in the 30, and get the job done.

The 17, with such a small box, is going to be a problem.

 

[begreen]

Dix, I just quoted the OP. I didn't recommend the 17VL for this application. I recommended stoves about 2 cu ft in size that stick within a low budget. My preference here would be a Pacific Energy Super 27 for the longer burn, but that would be twice the cost the OP is talking about. Thus the recommendation for the True North TN19. Personally, to stick with the budget I would be looking for a used Lopi Endeavor or similar mid-sized stove.

 

[crcurrie]

Wow, thanks for all of the comments and advice -- this is a really helpful, active and friendly board!

I'm curious about the True North stove. Who sells this? I'm having a hard time finding a retailer after a cursory search.

Also, is it EPA approved, and how long is the burn time? Lastly, how do you clean out the ashes? I don't see an ash drawer -- seems it could be messy work ...

Thanks again --

Chris

 

[begreen]

The True North is Pacific Energy's value line. It is epa approved. Don't worry about an ash drawer, it is really not necessary. We never use ours.

Where are you located Chris?

 

[crcurrie]

The True North is Pacific Energy's value line. It is epa approved. Don't worry about an ash drawer, it is really not necessary. We never use ours.

Where are you located Chris?

Our camp is in northwest Pennsylvania; the climate is similar, temperature-wise, to mid-Michigan.

I don't really know where to look for wood stoves on the Internet. I've checked the box stores' sites, overstockstoves.com, northerntool.com -- and Craigslist.

I'll ask an embarrassing newbie question: How do you remove the ashes if not by pulling out the drawer? Do you scoop them out with some kind of implement? Sounds messy and labor-intensive but I've never done it ...

 

[begreen]

I wouldn't be surprised it you only cleaned out the ash once a season in a cabin stove. You do this with an ash shovel, into a metal can. For our stove burning 24/7 and heating a space twice the cabin size, the cleaning happens about once a month.

Personally I would go up to the PE Super 27 if you can swing a good deal on one. Here are dealers within 100 miles of Erie, PA.

Weavers Woodcrafts
5817 Wattsburg Road
Erie, PA
16509
Tel: 814 825-1098
Distance: 0 miles (0 km)
View Map

NWS Products, Inc
2719 North Ridge Road
Ashtabula, OH
44004
Tel: 440-992-3580
Distance: 39.8 miles (64.1 km)
View Map

Shetler's
4809 Kinsman Road
Middlefield, OH
44062
Tel: 440-693-4477
Distance: 65.5 miles (105.4 km)

 

[BrowningBAR]

"The 17-VL is small (perhaps not as durable?) but it's EPA approved and so might heat my 1000 sf, well-insulated cabin"

Let's not go off the deep end here. The 30NC is too big for this application.

Like I said, my advice may not be worthwhile in this particle circumstance.

I like the TrueNorth recommendation. I think that has a larger firebox than the 13.

 

[crcurrie]

Thanks for the dealer list -- I'll make some calls. I did find one Pacific Energy stove locally on Craigslist -- it's a "never used" Spectrum Classic for $700. It's cream-colored but I guess I could repaint it a darker color.

How does that stove compare with the True North or the Super 27?

 

[ethanhudson]

Get the 30. Bigger=Better period.

 

[ethanhudson]

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...053&langId=-1&keyword=englander&storeId=10051

Click the link. Buy the stove for $649.00, BRAND NEW SHIPPED TO YOUR DOOR! Thank me if you'd like ... be sure that you select your home store as: Bristol, Washington County, VA, 24202

Disclaimer: if, or whatever silly reason, you decide you don't want the 30 and instead desire to buy a smaller (inferior) stove buy the 13 from the same site for the same price. Still a better deal than buying a used one for a comparatively equal price (you will get a warranty with a new unit and they will deliver it to your cabin)

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the dealer list -- I'll make some calls. I did find one Pacific Energy stove locally on Craigslist -- it's a "never used" Spectrum Classic for $700. It's cream-colored but I guess I could repaint it a darker color.

How does that stove compare with the True North or the Super 27?

Go for it, and don't snooze. That is the deluxe version of the Super 27 and a heckuva price. The Spectrum sells for about $22-2500. Don't plan on repainting, it has a porcelain steel jacket like a kitchen stove. It has good close clearances and easy hearth requirements. http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/pacspec.htm

 

[raybonz]

I agree with BG that's a great deal on a really nice stove! I feel the the NC-30 is way too big in that size of a space! I heat my home with a stove that has the same the same size firebox and get long burns too.. The hearth requirement on the Spectrum Classic are ember protection only so you will save $$ on the install as well plus it iwll be easy to create a nice hearth with no R-value requirements..

Ray

 

[BobUrban]

Note - the 13 can be had for 649.00 delivered to your door and is NEW with warranty - Vs. 650.00 deliered by owner, used w/o Warranty Kind of a no brainer if you go that direction? I am not an expert or even try to be one but I am on board with more stove(fire box) all other things being equal is better. I say this based on, small fires can be made in a big box but big fires cannot in a small one. This is if you are the driver of the vehicle meaning, you are making the fires. My concern with a BIG stove like the 30 in your set up is the "Renters". I think there is way more potential for massive, over fire(traslate: burn the place down) with inexperienced, non-owners stuffing it to the gills, lighting it and going out to play???

Pretty much everyone here has walked away and forgot their stove only to get a nice "pucker factor" when we realize it is going off at 800+ with a rager inside. I don't care what kind of printed warning and opperating instructions you have taped to the unit someone is going to test the limits either on purpose or otherwise that is a non-owner. Just human nature. I can just hear it now, "can't you get that thing hotter, its cold in here"!! 20 minutes later, "HOLY CHIT, that Therm is PEGGED"!!

Now this is also complicated by the limits of insulation(will a smaller stove heat the space comfortably, can it?) and who the tenents are? Stoves are not rocket science but they can seem to be running on rocket fuel if not properly run and that would scare me with multiple opperators with different levels of experience and more importantly, different levels of respect. "I rented this place and was told it would be warm in here and I'm cold - lets get that sucker HOT!!"

Add to that, do you leave a shovel and ash bucket near the stove and wonder if the renter knows the danger of a full ash bucket left on a wood floor. Again, instructions may read, "take bucket outside and place a safe distance from cabin with lid on after fill" but do you know they even read it? Most will think they know how to use a shovel. Kind of like 4hrs into a 20 minute project on Christmas morning when you decide, "lets look at the directions" - but instead of loosing a little time and getting frustrated the potential loss is your cabin and life. If you do rent out the cabin I would not leave a shovel and bucket there for others to have the opportunity.

Just my "safety Man" mentality and 2cents.

 

[BobUrban]

Not sure how the faces self populated in my post but they certainly are appropriate(I think)

 

[crcurrie]

Ethan, wow, thanks for that link! Amazing that by just changing the Home Depot store location one could save 50% on the price and get free shipping.

So now I'm really tempted by two choices: the NC-30 for $650 delivered (huge convenience factor), or the Spectrum Classic, which will make hearth construction easier and cheaper but entails probably paying my contractor (and a helper or two) to make the four-hour round trip plus loading and unloading to fetch it. I would also have to get used to the dainty cream color (in a log cabin with a darkish, rustic interior).

Granted that the NC-30 is more stove than I need but that I can burn less wood to keep temps from getting out of hand, which stove is the better buy for my needs? Any predictions as to which will last longer?

Thanks again for all your advice, folks! I plan to make a final decision today.

Chris

 

[crcurrie]

Not sure how the faces self populated in my post but they certainly are appropriate(I think)

The faces were well taken, Bob! You made some good points. Given the reality that it's probably renters who will mostly use this stove, I need to be especially careful about safety.

So maybe I swap out the NC-30 in favor of the NC-13. Same great price. And probably more equivalent in capacity to the Spectrum Classic. Which would you choose?

 

[BobUrban]

JMO - the cream colored stove would probably look really nice in the cabin. I am thinking very nice actually and for the money it seems to be a great deal if the stove is in good shape. It is not like it is bright white super modern. Regarding which one I think I may lean that way Vs. a black steel box if the cabin warrants it. I am thinking Cute log cabin in the woods - Spectrum. Hunting camp - NC but that is just an opinion as both will certainly serve the purpose required.

As far as longevity I do not think going either way will be an issue based on use. As long as either one is maintained with relatively simple maintenance(clean and inspect stove and chimney) they should last indefinitely with the limited use. I am guessing even if you have a lot of renters you will not be hammering the stove like most of us 24/7 burners and even with that kind of use they last 20+ yrs with limited issue.

I am a tinker and have access to all things steel(welding, fabrication, forge, etc..) so a quality used item that needs a little TLC at a great price is right up my alley but in your application of others using it and not being there all the time maybe new w/warranty is better? If the Spectrum is in great shape there really is little that goes wrong on a stove. Comes down to prefference and price point I suppose.

Regarding new, and if you go that route - if you can I suggest burning the stove outside to break it in if at all possible because I understand the new paint burn off can be pretty noxious for a short time. I say all this tongue in cheek because I have a brand new NC-30 sitting in my living room so I went new over used and brought it inside before burning. My reasoning was simple: $650.00 delivered and $50.00 to get the guys delivering it to bring it into the house - no brainer as it weighs over 400lbs I think. I will open windows and use a fan to burn in. Do a search here for tips - lots of new stove burn in threads.

 

[BrotherBart]

If the Spectrum is in fact not used and in good shape that is the way to go. Next in line the 13-NC or True North. Putting a 30 in that small of a well insulated cabin would be just plain nuts. You would have to be burning it too low all the time and crapping up the chimney. Which by the way is something you need to be thinking about every bit as much as which stove. The chimney.

"Small hot fires" has a nice sound to it but those are small short fires too. For clean burning and efficient use of the wood you want a stove more closely matched to your heating needs so you can burn it as designed.

 

[begreen]

Not sure how the faces self populated in my post but they certainly are appropriate(I think)

Double exclamation points make for a shocked smiley. ! x 2 = !!