Progress Hybrid Install and Experience
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Smaller fires is the trick. We had a 6 hr power outage yesterday which started before the heatpump came off the nightime setback temp. By 11am the house was at 66F and my wife was complaining about being cold. I reluctantly started a fire considering it was 54F outside. The fire was made with 2 smallish 4" splits and two 7-8" splits. The house got up to 71º and stayed there. Power came on a few hours after I had started the fire so I just let it burn out.
Chas0218
Minister of Fire
I've tried smaller fires but my chimney doesn't seem to get warm enough. The single wall surface temp just before it goes out the house to the tee is around 170* with small fires and around 280* with large fires. I don't think that is hot enough with smaller fires and I really don't want stage 3 creosote build up.
We had good secondary combustion which surprised me considering how warm it was outside. Probe flue temp settled in at around 400F. With a surface temp of 170, the flue gases should be above 250F. If the wood is dry it should be ok.
Chas0218
Minister of Fire
Well my first season of burning is pretty much complete unless we get another cold night. The sun really warms up my westerly exposed house right before sunset so I doubt I'll need to burn anymore. We went through only about 1.5 cords but there were several weeks where I was rationing wood so we didn't run out. Still 3/4 of a cord in the shed for next season. I was really surprised at how quickly we all of the sudden didn't need to burn or the house would get way too hot, even with a small fire. I'll be increasing the wood shed by 50% this year to about 3.5 cords and should be able to store about 1.5 years worth in that. The type of wood we have around here seems to dry pretty quick, solar kilning is an option, and the shed gets great sun so I think I'll be ok with that size shed.
I had to clean the cat for the stove about 2 or 3 times with a quick vacuum from the shop vac.
I also don't need to relocate the thermostat. If the stove is warm enough to heat up the thermostat then the rest of the house aside from the basement is warm enough to not need the furnace. I'll probably be replacing the pellet stove in the basement with a natural gas "wood" stove this summer so my renter can be more comfortable down there and not rely on portable electric oil heaters.
I had to clean the cat for the stove about 2 or 3 times with a quick vacuum from the shop vac.
I also don't need to relocate the thermostat. If the stove is warm enough to heat up the thermostat then the rest of the house aside from the basement is warm enough to not need the furnace. I'll probably be replacing the pellet stove in the basement with a natural gas "wood" stove this summer so my renter can be more comfortable down there and not rely on portable electric oil heaters.
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I just did my first chimney cleanout with a Sooteater for chimney liners: Gardus SLK-24. This product definitely cannot make the very sharp bend to get up a top exit configured progress hybrid so I took my pipe off to clean the chimney out. I got maybe half a quart of mostly soot and a few sand grained size small black shiny flakes out of the pipe and another half a quart out of the rest of the chimney so I guess my wood and burning techniques are good enough.
Ok, ive got a few updates now that I'm burning for season 2.
First is that I removed the flapper smoke dam thing because it was getting in the way of loading more wood and I have plenty of draft. No smoke spillage issues after removal.
Second thing is that I installed a heat shield behind my double wall pipe to reduce wall temps. Even though my stove meets clearance requirements I could barely hold my hand on the wall during a hot burn and wasnt comfortable that it would be safe in the event of a chimney fire or if I ever forget to turn the stove down on startup.
The wall is now only warm to the touch.
Finally, I'm burning much better wood this year and it makes a big difference. Someone near me took down 22 100ft+ perfectly straight, clear, and tight grained douglas fir trees and I bought 2 cords of it. Wish I had room for more. This wood burns a little cooler for much longer than random mix I burned last year. I can easily get overnight burns now and do a hot reload in the morning if I wanted but its not cold enough for that. I havent needed to do a full hot reload yet but 11 or 12 hours should be possible instead of about 8 or 9 before. The wood is almost too clear so it nests together tightly which can make starting fires more difficult but is great for hot reloads. I'll definitely put effort into finding good doug fir next year, maybe the same guy hasnt sold it all yet. Its about the best wood you can consistenly find up here.
First is that I removed the flapper smoke dam thing because it was getting in the way of loading more wood and I have plenty of draft. No smoke spillage issues after removal.
Second thing is that I installed a heat shield behind my double wall pipe to reduce wall temps. Even though my stove meets clearance requirements I could barely hold my hand on the wall during a hot burn and wasnt comfortable that it would be safe in the event of a chimney fire or if I ever forget to turn the stove down on startup.
The wall is now only warm to the touch.
Finally, I'm burning much better wood this year and it makes a big difference. Someone near me took down 22 100ft+ perfectly straight, clear, and tight grained douglas fir trees and I bought 2 cords of it. Wish I had room for more. This wood burns a little cooler for much longer than random mix I burned last year. I can easily get overnight burns now and do a hot reload in the morning if I wanted but its not cold enough for that. I havent needed to do a full hot reload yet but 11 or 12 hours should be possible instead of about 8 or 9 before. The wood is almost too clear so it nests together tightly which can make starting fires more difficult but is great for hot reloads. I'll definitely put effort into finding good doug fir next year, maybe the same guy hasnt sold it all yet. Its about the best wood you can consistenly find up here.
Doug fir seasons quickly once split and stacked. I get our doug fir in early spring and load the shed with it. It has consistently come in at around 18% moisture content by Nov. 1.
Have you considered getting a probe flue thermometer to track flue temps?
Have you considered getting a probe flue thermometer to track flue temps?
Yeah he brought the trees down early spring and by late spring it already had that nice dry tone to it. Tested in the high teens last week.
Ive thought about a flue thermometer but i dont like how they are just a metal probe which conducts heat to a coil thermometer. Do those still work well with double wall pipe?
A probe thermometer is all that will provide an accurate reading with double-wall stove pipe.
The Condar probe thermometer is the only one I can find. Do those work well?
They arent really a probe thermometer though because the probe just conducts heat to the bimetal coil outside of the pipe.
But I guess they are calibrated for that and it cant really be worse than a normal stove top thermometer.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Condar probe meters are the best option unless you want to use an electronic wired thermometer with a remote panel display
Woody Stover
Minister of Fire
I don't have experience with double-wall, but I'd think that with clearances met, the wall shouldn't be getting that hot unless you are firing your stove and flue pretty hard, as in a strong hybrid burn with lots of secondary action. I'd get a probe in there to see what flue temps are. I'm not sure what kind of temps the double-wall connector is rated for..? (Or single-wall for that matter.)
I think that stainless liner or class A chimney is safe below 1000 sustained interior temp. I don't think you have to worry about the class A...probably starts further up, at the support box.
I wouldn't think you would be burning on high a lot, in your moderate climate...or are you getting the hot flue when you are burning in a new load, not when cruising?
You bring up something I've been wondering about, as I try to get the hang of finding the "Goldilocks zone" with my SIL's new secondary-burn stove. When you say the more dense wood "burns cooler," I guess it's because it gasses in a slower, more controlled manner than the lower-BTU stuff you burned? With the low-BTU wood, it's more likely I'll get too much of the load gassing early on, then stove temp goes higher than I'd like.
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The measured temps of the wall that I've taken are right at the limits of what acceptible to UL I guess but not to me. The stoves temp is pretty much only controlled by the amount of wood you have in it but even doing a hot reload half full it will put out some pretty good secondary action for a couple hours which caused the pipe and wall to get hot. Once the stove is up to temp you pretty much have to have the air control fully closed or it will really take off.
The heat on the wall primarily comes from the collar at the top of the stove and the bottom foot of the pipe. Above that its not so bad. The adapter from Woodstock for my chimney might also be increasing the heat because there is a small area (~.5") where the pipe is effectively single walled. In any case its fixed now with the extra shield so I'm not concerned. But I did just order a pipe thermometer to see if that gives me better info for startup and closing the bypass.
I agree with you on the nicer higher BTU wood. Additionally it nests together tighter because its so straight which I think helps regulate the burn.
The heat on the wall primarily comes from the collar at the top of the stove and the bottom foot of the pipe. Above that its not so bad. The adapter from Woodstock for my chimney might also be increasing the heat because there is a small area (~.5") where the pipe is effectively single walled. In any case its fixed now with the extra shield so I'm not concerned. But I did just order a pipe thermometer to see if that gives me better info for startup and closing the bypass.
I agree with you on the nicer higher BTU wood. Additionally it nests together tighter because its so straight which I think helps regulate the burn.
Woody Stover
Minister of Fire
Huh, that sounds like my experience with the new secondary stove..gotta be careful not to get too much wood gassing. I was under the impression that one could go to a cat-only burn with the PH at any time, just by cutting the air back. Maybe that was more the case with the steel hybrids, not sure.
I think you have a fairly tall stack. Maybe the draft is pretty strong, and you could get more control with a pipe damper (or two.)
I know that with my Woodstocks, the stove top meter was the slowest to react, with the soapstone and all. Those have been straight cats though, not hybrids..your PH top may react faster once the secondary kicks in. I also have a surface meter lying on the horizontal tee snout, and in my case it reacts faster to changes in the fire box. I know that if I hold it at 450-500 for ten or fifteen minutes, I can close the bypass and get a good light-off. You too may find flue temp more useful in judging what's going on in the box. Maybe the best tool is just looking at the load to see how much wood is catching at a given time and cutting back the air accordingly. But it takes a while to get good at judging a fire by eye, and anticipating what it's going to do in the next several minutes. I'm having to hone those skills now, at my SIL's. At home, if I get too much wood burning in the Keystone, no big deal, I just cut the air to tone down the burn.
Quite a bit of the wood I have for her this year was split for her old cat stove, not bigger splits like I'd prefer for her new T5. I'm trying to nest them to slow down the loads, but the splits aren't as straight as yours..
I ordered the condar probe thermometer and have had several fires with it now.
Woodstocks statement that the flue temps are approximately double the stove top temps during startup seem to be true according to what ive been seeing.
Typically Ive been shutting down the bypass when the pipe temp hits about 600 and then closing the air control shortly after that. The pipe temp will drop to about 400 or 450 and once the stove is heated up it cruises with the stovetop thermometer at 500 to 550.
That all seems good to me. I dont think the pipe thermometer is very necessary for this stove because its pretty easy to tell whats happening by looking at the firebox and stove top temps. At least I can check the temps from the couch now.
Woodstocks statement that the flue temps are approximately double the stove top temps during startup seem to be true according to what ive been seeing.
Typically Ive been shutting down the bypass when the pipe temp hits about 600 and then closing the air control shortly after that. The pipe temp will drop to about 400 or 450 and once the stove is heated up it cruises with the stovetop thermometer at 500 to 550.
That all seems good to me. I dont think the pipe thermometer is very necessary for this stove because its pretty easy to tell whats happening by looking at the firebox and stove top temps. At least I can check the temps from the couch now.
Another quick mid season update. There was a thread at one point where someone was complaining at how often their cat clogged, i think they were having to clean weekly. With my previous batch of lower quality "Northwest mix" wood I'd need to clean about every face cord, maybe each time I had to empty the ash pan. But having put a cord of douglas fir though the stove, the cat has hardly any ash buildup. So if you are getting clogging problems it could be an issue with your wood.
12 hour burns with doug fir are still not guaranteed but I don't try for that long most of the time. If I get a few big logs on bottom when I light a fire from the middle, that seems to be the best for long burns. I do easily get 12 hours of heat from the stove though. In my relatively mild climate if I wanted to do 24 hour burning it would probably require 3 or 4 smaller reloads a day in order to not heat up the house too much.
12 hour burns with doug fir are still not guaranteed but I don't try for that long most of the time. If I get a few big logs on bottom when I light a fire from the middle, that seems to be the best for long burns. I do easily get 12 hours of heat from the stove though. In my relatively mild climate if I wanted to do 24 hour burning it would probably require 3 or 4 smaller reloads a day in order to not heat up the house too much.
That is similar to what we see with the T6. Lately with cold nights and mild daytime temps I have been starting a full load fire around 7am, then a modest 5-6 split reload around 6pm. I toss a few splits on at around 11:30pm to carry the fire through the night. So far this heating season I have cleaned out ash twice burning almost all doug fir, about 2 cords worth so far. Lately I have been slipping in some hardwood for the 11:30pm burn and that is building up ash quicker. I will have to clean again by the end of the month I think.
Did my annual chimney cleaning this week:
My apparatus to capture soot, a helper holding a shop vac near the hole would make it nearly soot free.
Probably got 1.5 qts of soot. The lighter browner part was from the stove pipe, the darker black stuff from the chimney.
My apparatus to capture soot, a helper holding a shop vac near the hole would make it nearly soot free.
Probably got 1.5 qts of soot. The lighter browner part was from the stove pipe, the darker black stuff from the chimney.
toddnic
Minister of Fire
Its been a few years now and I think my cat is not really activating anymore. This will be my 6th season and last year it seemed to be not giving me cat burns much anymore either. To keep the stove up to temp I have to get it hot enough to have secondaries fully going and all of the logs good and coaled over. If I shut it down too early, instead of going into alien heat mode it will just slowly cool off. This has also been verified by looking at the smoke output.
I've ordered a new cat from Woodstock, $220 delivered to Seattle, and will report back when it comes. Currently backordered with a 6 to 8 week delivery time but the guy on the phone says he hopes it will be sooner.
I've ordered a new cat from Woodstock, $220 delivered to Seattle, and will report back when it comes. Currently backordered with a 6 to 8 week delivery time but the guy on the phone says he hopes it will be sooner.
Ugh, it's good that the stove can run on secondaries. The cat for these stoves seems to be on perpetual backorder.
I knew I needed to buy a new one this year but put it off because I was feeling cheap about it. Its probably not even a big impact to my wood usage and the chimney cleanout from last year didn't look any different either.
fire_man
Minister of Fire
Have you given it a vinegar bath? It does wonders to rejuvenate.
6 years is a good life for a cat but you might squeeze more until the new one arrives.
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