Purchase made - Froling S3 with dual 240 gal Storage

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Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
133
NL
Cant find a model of copper Tee's so just used steel, serves the purpose for what i need this dwg for.

And the pump is not the Caleffi Thermobloc 281 but it will do.

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maple1

Minister of Fire
Sep 15, 2011
10,784
Nova Scotia
Would you want to switch your union & valve locations? First thing I screwed into my boiler and tank fittings were valves. Well, I guess the second thing, after a nipple. Then you can isolate boiler and tank water if you have to disassemble/service the piping related stuff. I had to do that once to unstick a circulator.
 

hyfire

Minister of Fire
Aug 3, 2013
718
Ont, Canada
Looks amazing!, but I don't think your allowed to have a shut off before the pressure relief valve, if someone shut it off and forgot about it that could be a big problem, kinda results like space shuttle challenger rocket booster gaskets in cold weather. Sorry my mistake that is a sensor, silly me!
 

hyfire

Minister of Fire
Aug 3, 2013
718
Ont, Canada
Thanks Hyfire.

Good info but I will have to take my chances now, all 1" components purchased. Also, the current system has plenty of 1" copper pipe and the circulator between the two existing boilers have been running straight time during the cold season for 18 years and pipe is still holding. And im pretty sure the existing pipe is not type K.

I tend to taker some of the literature with a grain of salt but I still appreciate all the info, and i read every article I can, knowledge is power!!, especially when your learning. Thanks
Ya, i think some these calculations have lots of tolerance in the real world.
 

Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
133
NL
Would you want to switch your union & valve locations? First thing I screwed into my boiler and tank fittings were valves. Well, I guess the second thing, after a nipple. Then you can isolate boiler and tank water if you have to disassemble/service the piping related stuff. I had to do that once to unstick a circulator.
Maple you make a good point, ill make that change back. I actually had it that way first.
 

Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
133
NL
Where is the pressure relief valve located on this unit or do you have to pipe one in yourself?
Each boiler will have its own PRV, for the piping ive shown above you will see a Tee just below the gauge, thats where the PRV will go. Just havent got that far yet.
 

Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
133
NL
Looks amazing!, but I don't think your allowed to have a shut off before the pressure relief valve, if someone shut it off and forgot about it that could be a big problem, kinda results like space shuttle challenger rocket booster gaskets in cold weather. Sorry my mistake that is a sensor, silly me!
Yes thats the Low water sensor.
 

Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
133
NL
Your storage tanks your plumbing them in series why not parallel? Whats the pro and cons of each method?
According to the Froling folks series connected tanks act more like one big tank than two tanks connected in parallel. It was advised that this is the preferred connection.

Basically the first tank will hold most of the higher temp water then the second tank will stratify similar to what one large tank would do.

To be honest i never researched it too much.
 

Bad LP

Minister of Fire
Nov 28, 2014
1,658
Northern Maine
Whats your opinion about adding a swing check valve between tanks, or is it not needed?
Why do you think it's needed?

We placed one in the primary loop and took the swing away. It messed things up. If you do use one put it someplace where it's easy to disable.
 

Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
133
NL
Whats your opinion about adding a swing check valve between tanks, or is it not needed?
Unless im misunderstanding, if i add a swing check between the two tanks there will be no flow when heating zones pull water from storage, as in this scenario the flow through the tanks and associated piping is in the opposite direction then when charging tanks from wood boiler.
 

maple1

Minister of Fire
Sep 15, 2011
10,784
Nova Scotia
Unless im misunderstanding, if i add a swing check between the two tanks there will be no flow when heating zones pull water from storage, as in this scenario the flow through the tanks and associated piping is in the opposite direction then when charging tanks from wood boiler.

Sounds right.
 

chew72

Member
Oct 27, 2009
82
NS, Canada
Each boiler will have its own PRV, for the piping ive shown above you will see a Tee just below the gauge, thats where the PRV will go. Just havent got that far yet.
I think it's code to not be able to valve off the pressure relief. I'd have boiler, pressure relief then valve for sure. Also I'd put the low water cut off on its side to the left or right. Right now it's going to trap air possibly cutting off the system when it shouldn't.
 

Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
133
NL
Struggling with the location of unions on boilers. I know some suggest to install the valves as close as possible to inlet/outlet of boiler for isolation reasons but the unions in these locations will be dielectric for the purpose of protecting the boiler and piping from corrosion due to dis-similar metals. In other locations the unions will be for ease of piping install/removal so not a concern.

As I currently have it in some of the latest pics above, i have the valve connected closest to the boiler but this configuration wont have an dielectric separation between it and the boiler. I know this makes more sense in terms of isolating the boiler from the piping but im more interested in protecting the boiler from corrosion to be honest. Too much money invested here to not do this right. Im thinking that if i switch it to the union connected to the boiler first, if i do have an issue with the boiler im likely into a situation where i need to drain the boiler anyway, that can still be achieved if valve installed after union.

Thoughts from the experienced minds appreciated?

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Eureka

Feeling the Heat
Feb 4, 2018
349
NW Wisconsin
Don’t use dielectric unions, they’re bad. Black pipe, copper, brass, all play fine together on a boiler system. Dielectric unions are only preferred by engineers.
 
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Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
133
NL
Don’t use dielectric unions, they’re bad. Black pipe, copper, brass, all play fine together on a boiler system. Dielectric unions are only preferred by engineers.

Its hard to not use them when all my new equipment recommends it. I work in an industrial environment and see what damage dis-similar metals can do when not isolated properly so im am a little concerned here considering the cost of this install. With that said most of my experience is not with steel and copper so i cant draw on my experience for that.

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chew72

Member
Oct 27, 2009
82
NS, Canada
I feel like I remember reading it's not that bad if you go copper-brass-steel. That's how my connections are made. Though a more knowledgeable opinion in this case would be welcomed.
 

salecker

Minister of Fire
Aug 22, 2010
1,456
Northern Canada
11 years with no issues,also no unions.
Yes to lots of valves
Steel brass and copper and a closed system,the last time i checked the bottom of my tanks the water was crystal clear and zero sediments.I used,used copper pipe and 90% used fittings all from a privious boiler system built in the 50's that i salvaged the pipe and fittings from.There was no issue of any stuff not playing well together in the system either.
 

Eureka

Feeling the Heat
Feb 4, 2018
349
NW Wisconsin
One arrangement that seems to fail often is male black pipe threaded into female copper. I think the female copper stretches around the harder steel.
Important goals with any hydronic system are no air, and no leaks. Threaded joints seem to be the most common corrosion point, and a slightly leaking threaded connection can create corrosion in short time.
Also, corrosion inhibitor is good and helps keep things shiny inside.
Dielectric unions often corrode (maybe that’s the plan?). Some peeps don’t like the idea of plastic being at the 200+ degree boiler exit.
Do some searching on this and other forums (heating help) to get more real world opinions on dielectric unions, but I hear where your coming from too, @Newfiestang. It’s one of those deals that gets spec’d.