Question about building a bigger Missouri Design Masonry Stove

[zrafa]

Hi, my name is Rafa, and I live in Patagonia Argentina (South America).
Also, I'm new in this forum, and first of all, I would like to say that the site is great! and I have found a lot of useful threads!!

Now, I have a wide question.
My family and me are decided to build the Missouri Design Masonry Stove :
(broken link removed to http://dnr.mo.gov/pubs/)pub781.pdf
because that document is really complete, with schematics, instructions, construction details, explanations about firing, etc.

And we will build it in our living + kitchen room, which is big : 70m2 (meters; 10meters x 7meters).
Our big question for experts is : Is it possible to build the masonry heater (stove) of the Missouri document bigger?. For example, 50% bigger?. Should we have in count many extra modifications?. My main concern is if it just enough to build all the parts of that masonry stove just 50% bigger?

I know that I did many questions, no just one , but well, I would like to know if building every part 50% bigger is just enough (for example, fire place, chimeys, walls, etc).

Thanks in advance and best regards,
Rafa

 

[begreen]

There are very few masonry stove builders on hearth.com. Hopefully they will pick up on this thread. For another source specifically on masonry heaters I suggest you sign up with the MHA forum.
http://www.mha-net.org/forum-members/

 

[Simonkenton]

Masonry stoves are complicated. I have never used one, but, came close to buying a Tulikivi for my house some years ago. I studied up on them quite a bit.
I would be very hesitant to modify one of these stoves, I think you might be making a mistake if you modify it. I hope you can find an expert to give you the real scoop.

How cold does it get where you live down in Patagonia?

 

[zrafa]

There are very few masonry stove builders on hearth.com. Hopefully they will pick up on this thread. For another source specifically on masonry heaters I suggest you sign up with the MHA forum.
[url]http://www.mha-net.org/forum-members/

Hi begreen. Thanks for the link. I have visisted that web page, but it seems that that forum does not have activity and there are really just few posts (around 20, no more).
That is why I came here. This place has a lot of people and many useful threads with information

If somebody with knowledge can review just for a while the pdf then perhaps know if it is easier to build bigger.

Thanks,
Rafa
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[zrafa]

Masonry stoves are complicated. I have never used one, but, came close to buying a Tulikivi for my house some years ago. I studied up on them quite a bit.
I would be very hesitant to modify one of these stoves, I think you might be making a mistake if you modify it. I hope you can find an expert to give you the real scoop.

How cold does it get where you live down in Patagonia?

Hi Simonkenton, in Patagonia we have winters with -10 or -20 degrees (celsius). We are building our house in a farm and it just has electricity, but no gas network. That is why as well we want to build efficient fireplaces.
And I think you are right. I will not modify the design of the Missouri design if I do not get goot advices from experts.

Thanks and regards,
Rafa

 

[Simonkenton]

That is some cold weather! Would be good for a masonry heater.
You have no gas network. Can't you get propane? Up here in America, I have a 500 gallon propane tank, when it gets low the company sends out a truck and refills it. Works just like natural gas, is a very good source of heat, I also use propane for my stove and water heater.
Can't y'all get propane down in Argentina?

 

[Knots]

That is some cold weather!

-20 C = -4 F.

 

[byQ]

zrafa,

Thomas Elpel lives in Montana, USA, and wanted to build a Masonry heater, too. The only plans he could find were those Missouri fireplace plans so he built a few masonry heaters using these plans. He made this short video. But he sells a longer more detailed video of his building process (like US $20).

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The Missouri design is what is called a Russian fireplace. The channels run above the firebox horizontally back and forth and out a top flue. The MHA (Masonry Heater Association) also sells simple plans. They mainly follow a Finnish design called a contraflow. In this design the channels run up and down. There are usually 2 channels but there can be more.

 

[byQ]

The president of the MHA, Dan Givens (not him in video), built this large masonry heater and used Alaska river rock to finish it. They are burning 100 pounds of wood per firing - so it's a big one. I am not sure of the internal lay out. But the channel starts to one side of the firebox and than I'm not sure where it goes. Maybe both vertically and horizontally.

This appears to be a bigger design than the Missouri or contraflow designs. If it was me, I would call Executive Director Dick Smith at MHA, (520) 883-0191. He could direct you to a mason who you could call and run your questions by. You could tell them the space you are trying to heat, your house layout, etc...

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[zrafa]

Hi Simonkenton, yes, there are propane tanks. In fact, my parents in their farm has one, and it is the same system it seems : when it gets low they call to the company and it sends out a truck and refills it.
BUT, it costs around 20 times more than natural gas really really expensier. But well, that is the only possibility.
So wood is cheaper yet. And if the stoves are really well built then better.

We have plans to install some day propane tank as well. But it would be if we can not build good masonry heaters or similar. For water heater we will use the small gas tanks (around 15kg).

Regards

 

[Simonkenton]

Too bad about the propane costs in Argentina, propane is cheap here in America, it is similar to natural gas.
byQ, that is a fascinating video. Like I said, some years ago I studied up quite a bit on the Finnish Fireplace. The Finns did a lot of research at the Technical Institute following WW2 and they learned that the hottest fire is developed with a vertical flame path of about 4 to 5 feet. They found that a vertical flame path this high produced the highest heat, and they are getting, as best I recall, about 1,700 degrees in that fire box. Such a hot fire burns the wood right up and leaves very little ash.
This is the design principle used in the Tulikivi Finnish Fireplace.

So, it is interesting to me that this guy in the video has a vertical flame path of only about 2 feet. I don't know which is better, obviously the guy in the video knows what he is doing.

A Tulikivi Finnish Fireplace. Tulikivi sells about a dozen models.

 

[byQ]

I want to build a Masonry Heater, too. I've got part of a house foundation done, and as soon as the slab is poured I can start constructing a masonry heater (MH). The spot where the MH sits must have a deeper slab (like .4 meter).

I live in a great place to get stones/rock, the Gem state - Idaho. I drove north up to Salmon, Idaho. I would drive around the corner and their would be another mountain of stone. I'ld be thinking, 'wow there are 10,000 red masonry heaters, I'ld round another corner and think, there are 10,000 green masonry heaters.....' But for my heater, I just went out to a rock quarry and for $20 they let me load up my pickup with their discard stone. Looking at a pile like this can be daunting. Which stone do I collect?



I try to picture a stone fireplace from what is available and than I start collecting. I found this rock interesting - salt & pepper granite in the right sizes for layering. Also I found just enough wood-looking and green rock that had 90 degree sides to use for cornering, so I grabbed some of these, too.

 

[byQ]

Simonkenton,
I would like a Tulikivi but they are expensive. If I win the lottery.......looks like I'm going to have to take matters into my own hands.

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the informative posts byQ. I was hoping you'd pick up on this thread.

Simonkenton, propane is cheap in some parts of the US, but not all. It's quite expensive in the Seattle/Tacoma area until you get away from the urban areas.

 

[byQ]

Thanks begreen,
zrafa, you said something about having to use gas/oil to heat your water. I heard a couple masons talking and they said they are getting more and more orders for masonry heaters that have coils in them for heating water. So, you might want to ask about this, too.

 

[zrafa]

byQ, that is a great video and very useful information!
I will try to contact that people for my questions. If not, then I will follow the design of the Missouri doc. I have some contructors working with the house, and they will help me
There is a guy near to my place who builds those masonry heaters, but he is a little expensive for consulting, and I am not sure if he is really an expert or just know about the topic. I will ask.

About water heating : I will try to plug a solar system to the gas water heater system. But also, I am reading about how to add some "plugin" to the masonry stove to heat water. At least I will do some tests and experiments.

Thanks a lot for the information.
Rafa

 

[zrafa]

Hi, my name is Rafa, and I live in Patagonia Argentina (South America).
Also, I'm new in this forum, and first of all, I would like to say that the site is great! and I have found a lot of useful threads!!

Now, I have a wide question.
My family and me are decided to build the Missouri Design Masonry Stove :
(broken link removed to http://dnr.mo.gov/pubs/)pub781.pdf
because that document is really complete, with schematics, instructions, construction details, explanations about firing, etc.

Rafa

Hi, I found extra information and details.
Nice post about building the Missoury design : (broken link removed to http://survivalblog.com/experience_building_a_missouri/)
And the great thing in this post is that the author uploaded two videos with pictures for that design. No more excuses about how to build it

 

[byQ]

zrafa,
Thanks for the video. I hadn't ever seen that one. I went to a masonry heater build in Las Vegas, Nevada, last year. They are meeting again this year to build a bigger contraflow type heater - World of Concrete, Feb. 3-6. Last year, it was a small contraflow type of heater. I took a bunch of photos. I can PM them to you if you want. Although the design is different there are some basic facts about building a masonry heater,

* there is an inner part called a core - usually made out of fire bricks. However, most tulikivi's use soapstone, and the core kits are made from refractory cement.
* expansion of the core must be realized, that is you must allow for it
* there must be clean-out doors to get to the ash
* There needs to be a gap between the outer layer and the core. If the gap it too much you will have poor heat transfer. And if the gap is too small you will have good heat transfer but the expanding core will crack the outer shell.
* some small cracking of the outer shell is common and is nothing to worry about.
* the most stressed area of a masonry heater is right above the firebox. Accounting for extra expansion should be built in here - the mason's often use steel with a firebrick shield. I also saw them stick coins in there (like dimes under the steel lentil). It would have been more cost effective to use pennies, ha ha!

Good Luck