Hello from the NWT - stove question

[NWTstove]

Hello,

I live in the Northwest Territories, where we will have at least 10 days colder than -40C (-40F), and probably 60 days under -28C (-18F). Add to that that we just bought our first home here, and it is 2700 sqft. We currently burn oil, which is a massive drag financially (1700 bucks for the first tank refill - 6 weeks of use). for reference, the old owner burnt 7000L of oil in 2022. That's about $13,000 per year, at recent oil prices.

I am looking at getting a wood stove to supplement costs, as wood is cheap/free here. We are going to keep the oil as it warms our hot water (will eventually switch to propane when it's time to change the tank), but hopefully mainly use the wood stove and circulate the air via central air, which intakes from the to-be wood stove family room, and the furnace room in the basement. I have experience with 1 wood stove in the past, and 1 pellet stove extensively, which was often problematic and too complicated to bother with. The wood stove I had was the Jotul F3CB, and the wood stove I want now is this Stovax Stockton:

Stovax Stockton 5 Wood Burning & Multi-fuel Stoves

The Stovax Stockton 5 Ecodesign Plus stove offers you a mid-sized stove that is larger than the Stockton 3 or Stockton 4, and is available as either a

www.stovax.com

My questions are:
1) How do I prevent over firing a stove?
2) How do I prevent large temperature shifts in the house (for example, if I load the stove at night, I would think it'd be cold by morning?)
3) Anyone with small kids: will a metal baby gate surrounding the stove be enough, get too hot, etc? We have a 5 month and a 2.5 year old. Probably more on the way too.

Any other thoughts you have would be welcome.

Thank you all for your wisdom. Working on building mine.

 

[Chill in Northern VT]

1.) Get a big enough stove. Most stoves burn really well within a certain range but they are all different. I am in northern VT where it gets -20F for 2-3 weeks every winter. 2.) You can't truly "prevent" large temp sweeps especially overnight (I have zero solar radiation on one side of my house because of a massive barn that is way too close to the house wall (=cold). One strategy we use is I burn the stove all day, then at night around 8, I let it burn out over night and set the heat (propane) to about 52-56. It will only come on in the very ealry AM (4-5 AM) even on the coldest days if I get the house hot enough before bed and use the fan.
3.) Danger. Be careful.

 

[begreen]

It would be good to pause for a bit. The Stovax is still a small stove that is not going to provide longer burns or more heat than the Jotul F3CB. The home is large. Unless the stove is in a smaller area or room, a much larger stove will be needed for longer burn time and larger fuel pieces. The Stovax Stockton 5 only takes 13" splits vs 18" for the F3CB. 2700 sq ft in a cold climate will normally require a stove 3 times as large.

How open is the family room to the rest of the house? Depending on an oil forced air system to distribute heat may greatly disappoint unless the system is completely sealed and all ducting is in a conditioned space and fully insulated. There is a big difference in moving 135ºF oil heated air and recirculating 70-80ºF room air.

 

[Chill in Northern VT]

What he said! 👆 The stove is likely (way) too small for your needs....I use a steel stove rated to 2,000 sq feet for my low-ceiling and maze-like 1930s farm house. I can get to about 74 with it cranked all day but I have fans everywhere. Also a 13" log is short and a pain in the ass...most splitters cut to 16 or 18. I had a GORGEOUS soapstone, but I parted with it because the smaller log length was hell and it just took too long to get going hot. I love steel and am likely never going back (surprising myself even).

 

[ABMax24]

You're going to need a big stove.

7000 liters of heating oil in a year is 255 million BTUs. Depending on how much is used for hot water, but that's a lot of heat. Like 15 cords of softwood per year.

I'd point you toward the BlazeKing King, I think it's one of the only stoves big enough to burn that amount of wood in a winter. A Princess to a lesser extent if a 6" flue is desired. Otherwise in a non catalytic model. PE Summit (any other model in the 3.0 firebox). SBI 3.3 or 3.5 firebox (multiple models available).

@Poindexter this seems to be your area of expertise, both in climate and sheer amount of BTUs required if you have more to add.

 

[NWTstove]

It would be good to pause for a bit. The Stovax is still a small stove that is not going to provide longer burns or more heat than the Jotul F3CB. The home is large. Unless the stove is in a smaller area or room, a much larger stove will be needed for longer burn time and larger fuel pieces. The Stovax Stockton 5 only takes 13" splits vs 18" for the F3CB. 2700 sq ft in a cold climate will normally require a stove 3 times as large.

How open is the family room to the rest of the house? Depending on an oil forced air system to distribute heat may greatly disappoint unless the system is completely sealed and all ducting is in a conditioned space and fully insulated. There is a big difference in moving 135ºF oil heated air and recirculating 70-80ºF room air.

Thanks for your help.

The oil system is one that heats water that runs along the baseboards of each room of the house. The air cirulation is also heated by oil, I just found out. I originally thought it was just for circulation.

The room the stove will be in is about 12 ft by 20 ft, but it has two wide openings - one leads to staircase, which will catch most of that heat, then beyond to the dining room. The other way out of the wood stove room is into a secondary back living room, which is a large exit as well. So there is a lot of ways the heat can leave the room to other parts of the house.

 

[NWTstove]

You're going to need a big stove.

7000 liters of heating oil in a year is 255 million BTUs. Depending on how much is used for hot water, but that's a lot of heat. Like 15 cords of softwood per year.

I'd point you toward the BlazeKing King, I think it's one of the only stoves big enough to burn that amount of wood in a winter. A Princess to a lesser extent if a 6" flue is desired. Otherwise in a non catalytic model. PE Summit (any other model in the 3.0 firebox). SBI 3.3 or 3.5 firebox (multiple models available).

@Poindexter this seems to be your area of expertise, both in climate and sheer amount of BTUs required if you have more to add.

Thanks for this. One of my concerns is getting a wood stove large enough to heat the house, actually. Because it will overheat our living room unless I run the fan 24/7. Electricity here is pretty expensive -300-500/month. Although, that may be the better price to pay, rather than a smaller stove, less fan, and lots more oil.

What he said! 👆 The stove is likely (way) too small for your needs....I use a steel stove rated to 2,000 sq feet for my low-ceiling and maze-like 1930s farm house. I can get to about 74 with it cranked all day but I have fans everywhere. Also a 13" log is short and a pain in the ass...most splitters cut to 16 or 18. I had a GORGEOUS soapstone, but I parted with it because the smaller log length was hell and it just took too long to get going hot. I love steel and am likely never going back (surprising myself even).

Checking with my buddy who orders wood delivered to his house to see what length. Good idea! Worried about a big stove making the room its in too hot.

We actually need the oil furnace to stay on because it heats our water. So we don't need to fully heat the house with just the wood stove. But I can't tell you how much of the heat would be covered by the oil furnace on it's standby (thermostat off) running heat (keeping the tank hot with only water outflows to kitchen).

It's so complicated.

I see that

 

[begreen]

To allay some of the concerns, we have a large ~3 cu ft stove in a smaller 2000 sq ft home and heat without overheating in spite of being in a milder climate. We had an F3CB around 2005 and it was far too small for the task. A big stove does not mean that one has to run it full out all the time. Many can produce a wide range of heat depending on how it is run.

There are ways to even out heat distribution. How high is the ceiling? Is there a ceiling fan already in place? They don't draw a lot of power and could help move the heat to other parts of the house. If the family room has a cathedral ceiling a ceiling fan may be a necessity.

Can you post a rough sketch of the floor plan that includes the proposed stove location?

 

[Newbie78]

That stove is wee. You should re-cipher that. The 5 month old needs to be protected. The 2 1/2 year old is old enough to know, once taught.

 

[ABMax24]

Thanks for this. One of my concerns is getting a wood stove large enough to heat the house, actually. Because it will overheat our living room unless I run the fan 24/7. Electricity here is pretty expensive -300-500/month. Although, that may be the better price to pay, rather than a smaller stove, less fan, and lots more oil.

You might be able to use smaller portable fans to circulate the air instead of the furnace blower that use much less electricity.

It's a big investment, but I don't know how I could afford to live in the NWT without a wood stove. There's a few options that would work for you, a Blaze King has a thermostat, and levels out the peaks and valleys in heat output that most people are accustomed to on a traditional wood stove which might help you out.

You could also look at something like a Drolet Austral III with a Heatflow S5, if you could install it in the basement you could possible duct it to the floor above for better heat distribution.

Wood Stove | Austral III With Heatflow S5 Forced Air System

Austral III wood stove with forced air system Heatflow S5 - EPA certified at 0.95 g/h - 90 000 BTU/h - Heats up to 2,100 ft² - 20 '' logs - Made in Canada Can.

www.drolet.ca

 

[moresnow]

You might be able to use smaller portable fans to circulate the air instead of the furnace blower that use much less electricity.

It's a big investment, but I don't know how I could afford to live in the NWT without a wood stove. There's a few options that would work for you, a Blaze King has a thermostat, and levels out the peaks and valleys in heat output that most people are accustomed to on a traditional wood stove which might help you out.

You could also look at something like a Drolet Austral III with a Heatflow S5, if you could install it in the basement you could possible duct it to the floor above for better heat distribution.

Wood Stove | Austral III With Heatflow S5 Forced Air System

Austral III wood stove with forced air system Heatflow S5 - EPA certified at 0.95 g/h - 90 000 BTU/h - Heats up to 2,100 ft² - 20 '' logs - Made in Canada Can.

www.drolet.ca

Do you have personal experience with the Heatflow S5? Anyone following here used it?
First I've heard/seen of it. Like to hear from an actual user. Rather Interesting.

 

[NWTstove]

Thank you for all these responses.

I hear what you all are saying about the Stockton not being big enough. It's also not a catalytic, which would make an appreciable difference over the next 30 years (30 year mortgage!).

I am looking at the Ashford 20 or Ashford 30. Both are catalytic. My installer is highly recommending the Princess and says it is hands down the best stove in the world. He ordered one for himself which is arriving in a few weeks. I really prefer the Ashford style, even if it is slightly less efficient, and slightly more costly.

Any thoughts on the Ashford?

Thanks again.

 

[xman23]

Sounds like you need a lot of heat. Go big stove. Pick a good location that helps heat the common areas. As to over firing a stove, amount of wood and air. It's not supposed to happen if you run the stove properly.

The kids issue comes up occasionally. They learn to keep back from the heat very easily.

 

[ABMax24]

Definitely get the 30.2, absolutely no reason to get the 20.2 for your situation. There's more than a few members here with them, Poindexter was heating his house in Fairbanks with one, Ashful has a pair of them in his house. Search either of them on this forum should find posts of their experiences. The Chinook 30.2 and Sirocco 30.2 have the same internals as the Ashford 30.2, so reviews of any of those are valid and typical of what you could expect.

A Pacific Energy Alderlea T6 would be another option in Cast Iron if you wanted to consider non-catalytic.

I'm not convinced you'll heat solely with wood with any of these stoves, but if you're also able to make upgrades to the insulation then you should be getting close. They will make a big dent in the oil bill however.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Wood takes time to dry. Get it put up now and hopefully it will be ready for next fall. This really depends on species though. Some will dry in a year, others need 2+ years of drying to be ready.

 

[NWTstove]

Definitely get the 30.2, absolutely no reason to get the 20.2 for your situation. There's more than a few members here with them, Poindexter was heating his house in Fairbanks with one, Ashful has a pair of them in his house. Search either of them on this forum should find posts of their experiences. The Chinook 30.2 and Sirocco 30.2 have the same internals as the Ashford 30.2, so reviews of any of those are valid and typical of what you could expect.

A Pacific Energy Alderlea T6 would be another option in Cast Iron if you wanted to consider non-catalytic.

I'm not convinced you'll heat solely with wood with any of these stoves, but if you're also able to make upgrades to the insulation then you should be getting close. They will make a big dent in the oil bill however.

Thanks for this solid answer. Really glad to hear others have the Ashford up north. And glad to see you're in Grande Prairie. We visited there 2 winters ago for a small road trip vacation pre-Christmas. No one except us knew my partner was pregnant. It was a special time and we had a wonderful time there.

Sounds like the Ashford is the best option. My installer is looking at quotes. That Pacific Energy Alderlea T6 looks just as good, too. I saw a graph somewhere of a non-catalytic vs catalytic burn time and heat output, and catalytic seems to burn hotter for longer so I will probably side with the Ashford 30.

Thanks again.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

A load of wood has the same amount of energy in it whether you burn it in a cat or non cat stove.

A cat stove excels at long slow burns. A non cat tends to free that energy faster. If you need that heat NOW you won’t see a lot of difference in heat, or burn time.

 

[begreen]

Thank you for all these responses.

I hear what you all are saying about the Stockton not being big enough. It's also not a catalytic, which would make an appreciable difference over the next 30 years (30 year mortgage!).

I am looking at the Ashford 20 or Ashford 30. Both are catalytic. My installer is highly recommending the Princess and says it is hands down the best stove in the world. He ordered one for himself which is arriving in a few weeks. I really prefer the Ashford style, even if it is slightly less efficient, and slightly more costly.

Any thoughts on the Ashford?

Thanks again.

The Princess is a good stove with a big belly, but I agree that the Ashford 30 is much better looking. In non-cats look at the Jotul F55 and PE Alderlea T6.

 

[Poindexter]

@NWTstove

Late to the party, thanks for the tag @ABMax24 . That is a crap ton of oil to be burning annually, even in NWT. When we were just burning oil I didn't keep the upstairs 1200sqft at no +80d Fahrenheit. The 275M annual BTU in my sig is after the woodstove, with oil handling all domestic hot water and keeping the downstairs 1200sqft at +/- 65 to 70dF with our supplemental woodstove upstairs keeping my wife in a wardrobe somewhat more enticing than wrist to ankle flannel.

I think the first thing to look at is air leaks. Just get some sidewalk chalk and walk around all the penetrations in the outside walls. Where you feel cold air coming in, you got work to do next summer, leave a chalk mark on the wall. I got pretty good at making new interior window trim, none of the windows in my 1980 build had insulation between the window framing and the house framing. Get the special spray foam for windows and doors, but heed carefully the temp range on the spray can; you won't be spraying that stuff before May or so.

Don't forget to check light switches and receptacles on the exterior walls. I hate that I had to get good at bridging gaps between vapor barrier and jiffy boxes (without jacking up the drywall) in a build made before hats were a thing, but the $ saved on BTUs were worth the aggravation. Do the windows summer 2024 and think about bringing in a kegerator summer 2025 when you take on the jiffy boxes.

In Fairbanks, folks either have a woodstove or not, and if they do have a wood stove it is either a Blaze King or not. Given your oil consumption in NWT I suspect you have some low hanging (air sealing) fruit to go after no matter what energy source you choose for heating BTUs. Fixing your air leaks is going to lower your heating bills. However, dramatically reducing air turnover in your home might reveal moisture/mold issues that are currently under your radar.

One option would be to intentionally include an OAK (Outside Air Kit) with whatever new woodstove you choose. Sort of like the partially digested food in your gut is technically outside your body, having both an OAK and a chimney on your woodstove puts the stove on its own air circuit. Instead of walking around indoors with sidewalk chalk, walk around the outside of the home to see where heat is getting out through your walls.

With good or better air seals and reasonable insulation blanket, I personally would be looking at either a BK Princess (very common 6 inch chimney pipe) or a BK King (less common 8 inch chimney pipe required) to minimize my oil bill. The Ashford 30 (we had a 30.0 in the old house) is 'prettier' than a Princess to many people, but the A30, when all is said and done, is a little bit smaller draught horse than a Princess. Think of an grass fed Clydesdale standing next to an oat fed Percheron. These are both, on a global scale, big big stoves, but you do live in NWT.

With no kids at home, the wife and I had a pretty reasonable electricity bill, about 12kwh per day summertime. The difference between a A30 and a Princess was about the same as our electric usage, the Princess is a little bit bigger stove; enough bigger to make all of our electricity if the conversion was 100% efficient.

Given the above, my third choice would be a current iteration of the BK30 box, 30.2 I think.

If you are serious about supplementing with wood heat ( no brainer at 65 degrees north) I suggest you start bringing in wood today. All the spruces you can have split, stacked off the ground and top covered before +/- April 1, 2024 will be ready to burn in September 2024. Birch is kinda borderlin-ish. With 9 years experience, I can season birch in one summer. My first year as a new burner, it took me two full summers to get birch fully seasoned. Make room for 6-8 cords of softwood, but accept all the birch you can fit on the rest of your lot if the price is right.

As far as kids, I am on one extreme end of the teeter tooter. Little boys are going to still be checking to see if the force of gravity ever takes a break in their late 20s. Hot things burn. Hissy things bite, though we don't have any snakes this far north. Bears kick human buttocks. Mama moose has sharp heavy hooves. You certainly may put a fence around your wood stove if it makes you or your wife feel better, but sooner or later the world is going to hold my kids and your kids accountable for having made bad choices. My personal opinion is the sooner children learn this, preferably before puberty, the more likely they are to listen to me when I tell them things they do not want to hear. This is very much a disputable matter. I am in no way a parenting consultant. This is an area where you (and your wife) are going to have to work out your own salvation. There is no fence around the wood stove at my house.

 

[Poindexter]

Cross the BK20 off your shopping list. It is too small for your sqft and latitude.

 

[Poindexter]

@begreen , if you want to chime back in here please do. To me it looks like the OP needs to get after his air leaks and put in either a Princess on 6" chimney for first place by two lengths, with the King and A30 two lengths back and nose to nose for place and show.

If I was in his shoes and keeping the house for 10+ years it would be hard to talk me out of a BK King, even with the air leaks fixed. I just searched on NWT, the OP is "somewhere north of Anchorage, Alaska." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Territories

I simply do not have the knowledge of other stove mfrs that you do. Pacific Energy makes some really good stoves, for instance, but I was well and truly converted to catalytic stove technology after my first two weeks of use in Aug/Sep 2014.

Thanks

 

[begreen]

That's a good summary Pointdexter. I would go large, cat stove or not. The big Regency 3500 is another catalytic candidate though with the current heat loss of the house I wonder if a cat stove would be of much advantage. If it has to run at high output continually then the long burn time and with it lower wood consumption may not happen. In that case a big non-cat would be my recommendation.

I totally agree with addressing heat loss as a priority. That could pay back better and faster than a wood stove. @NWTstove, are there a lot of large windows in the house? If so, the heat loss could be high through them. Addressing that issue could take investing in insulating curtains or blinds.

Can you post a sketch of the house floorplan indicating windows, doorways and proposed stove location? Also, does the house have cathedral ceilings or normal 8-10' ceiling height throughout.

 

[bholler]

Honestly that much oil is a ton of btus. I doubt the stove will be run low and slow often at all so why pay for cats you don't need. Just get a high quality non cat

 

[begreen]

Honestly that much oil is a ton of btus. I doubt the stove will be run low and slow often at all so why pay for cats you don't need. Just get a high quality non cat

Yes, based on what we know so far, that's my conclusion, depending on the reasons for the heat loss and the ability to move the heat from the room to other parts of the house.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Part of our trouble with the OPs oil usage is we’re thinking of our 6 month winter. OP might have 8 months up there. That could significantly add to the amount of oil used. 7000 liters is around 1900 gallons. Again, big house, long winter. With little ones he’s probably keeping it pretty warm too.