Reduced Clearance question

[dwillistein]

So, I hope this is the right sub-forum for this question as I'm new here. I'm installing a Liberty tonight (hopefully) and I was wondering how much a 3.5" brick wall with combustible material (drywall on studs) directly behind reduces the clearances. I have a corner hearth and I'm going from an old Endeavor (380/96) to a modern Liberty and would like to set it back as far as possible.

Thanks!

oh, and just thought I'd mention I love the site - very useful info! I've been lurking for a while

 

[joecool85]

Unless it is mentioned in the manual, it is not possible to bring the stove closer than 12" to the wall. As to how much you can bring it down before that, I think the brick would be in the 2/3 category - IE if you started with a 36" clearance it'd get you to 12" but you'll want to check on that. Look up NFPA211.

 

[dwillistein]

Thanks!

I'm using single wall pipe which is a little over 18" from the drywall above the hearth. The Liberty manual says the corner of the stove can be 9.5" from the wall. I had figured all of this out with the Endeavor and I seem to remember that because the bricks were right on the wall it might be in the 1/3 category. So from 9.5" to 6.333"...

 

[TK-421]

I am still considering Theo stove but don't want to have to make the 3.5" brick wall.

Pages 8 & 12 of the manual state 10" rear to wall page 8 and 2" rear to non combustible wall in an alcove. An alcove should be more restrictive I'm not sure why they say only 2". That is very close"

 

[joecool85]

I am still considering Theo stove but don't want to have to make the 3.5" brick wall.

Pages 8 & 12 of the manual state 10" rear to wall page 8 and 2" rear to non combustible wall in an alcove. An alcove should be more restrictive I'm not sure why they say only 2". That is very close"

That's just how they tested it. But, you have to go by the manual in these close clearance situations, otherwise you are risking insurance issues and more importantly, you could possibly burn your house down.

 

[dwillistein]

OK, I think I found it - on page 4:

http://www.maine.gov/doc/initiatives/wood_to_energy/docs/woodstoves.pdf

It says a 3.5" wall WITHOUT airspace reduces clearance by 33%

So it look slike 6.5" is what I'm shooting for with my corner install.

I'll post pics tonight when I fire it up!

 

[dwillistein]

On second thought, does this 33% apply to the dimensions given in stoves' manuals? Or only from the old 36" standard...?

 

[joecool85]

On second thought, does this 33% apply to the dimensions given in stoves' manuals? Or only from the old 36" standard...?

It only applies to unrated stoves, which means the old 36" standard. For rated stoves it can be used if the manual says it can. If the manual states a certain protection gives you a certain distance, that's what you use. If the manual just states clearances can be reduced according to NFPA211, then you are limited to the 2/3 reduction with a minimum distance of 12". Trust me, I did a TON of research on this trying to get an Amesti N380 to fit where I wanted it and in the end I ended up returning the stove to Lowes and bought an Englander 17-VL instead because it fit the area I wanted better.

 

[dwillistein]

OK, cool it does say in the manual "Clearances may be reduced by methods specified in NFPA 211..." I think I'm good.

 

[joecool85]

OK, cool it does say in the manual "Clearances may be reduced by methods specified in NFPA 211..." I think I'm good.

So that means that you can use those methods and bring your clearance down to 12", but no less.

 

[begreen]

On second thought, does this 33% apply to the dimensions given in stoves' manuals? Or only from the old 36" standard...?

It only applies to unrated stoves, which means the old 36" standard. For rated stoves it can be used if the manual says it can. If the manual states a certain protection gives you a certain distance, that's what you use. If the manual just states clearances can be reduced according to NFPA211, then you are limited to the 2/3 reduction with a minimum distance of 12". Trust me, I did a TON of research on this trying to get an Amesti N380 to fit where I wanted it and in the end I ended up returning the stove to Lowes and bought an Englander 17-VL instead because it fit the area I wanted better.

Just to be sure this is clear. With 3.5" of brick, it is a 1/3d clearance reduction. For a 2/3ds reduction you need to have an NFPA 211, ventilated wall shield.

For the Liberty, the reduced clearances listed with a double-wall connector are 10" to the back wall and 16" to the side wall, corner clearance is 7.5". With single-wall the rear clearance goes up to 15" and the corner clearance goes up to 9.5".

It would help to see the actual installation location so that we understand the full installation. The concern here is with the single-wall pipe more than the stove. We need to know how this stove connects to the chimney. Single wall pipe clearances are the issue here.

 

[dwillistein]

OK, cool it does say in the manual "Clearances may be reduced by methods specified in NFPA 211..." I think I'm good.

So that means that you can use those methods and bring your clearance down to 12", but no less.

Hmmm, I took it to mean that you could bring the normal 9.5" clearance specified in the manual down by 33% to ~6.33"

The limiting dimension in my case is the corner to wall dimension. The stove pipe is OK at 18" (or a little more) from the combustible wall. The stovepipe is 14.5" from the brick wall which is OK (minimum is 12" by the 1/3 reduction rule).

 

[joecool85]

Hmmm, I took it to mean that you could bring the normal 9.5" clearance specified in the manual down by 33% to ~6.33"

The limiting dimension in my case is the corner to wall dimension. The stove pipe is OK at 18" (or a little more) from the combustible wall. The stovepipe is 14.5" from the brick wall which is OK (minimum is 12" by the 1/3 reduction rule).

Wow, love the install!

Unfortunately, unless your manual states that 6.33" is permissible with brick as wall protection, then you are out of luck. Because of the slightly ambiguous way it is worded in NFPA211 you could probably find someone to inspect it and "ok" it, but your insurance company may or may not agree with it in the event of a fire and they may not pay up and blame it on your installation. Best to play it safe and play by the rules (or codes in this case), 9.5" is as close as you're going to be able to safely get that stove to the wall.

 

[madison]

Last sentence of the second paragraph on page one on the link provided for the state of Maine: " All listed wood burning stoves should be installed according to the
manufacturers’ recommendations."

I read this as the Liberty manual trumps the state of maine recommendations

 

[wkpoor]

I give you 2 thumbs up on the install!

 

[MarkinNC]

That is an Endeavor not a Liberty correct? I am curious as to why you are changing stoves? You stuck with the same brand so I am guessing you want a larger stove?

 

[dwillistein]

That is an older picture of the 380/96 (Endeavor) when I first put it in 5 years ago. Yeah, basically I really liked it, but it never held a great overnight fire and I have a pretty old drafty 1900sq. ft. house. Upstate NY January gets pretty cold and it would have difficulty keeping up even fully loaded and blasting. I got the Liberty tonight and it looks like I'll have to do 2 45 degree pipes to bring it out a little further. There's plenty of room on the hearth. This thing is sweet, too. It's a 1998 model so it has the 3 stainless (I think) burn tubes and the guy told me he never replaced them. They look brand new to me. The original paint still has the speckly look and no rust. Best part - I thought the Liberty was shallower front to back but they both measure 17" from the metal frame to the back firebrick. I can load 16" logs north south and 22" logs east west.

Thanks for the compliments! I built the hearth myself and since I'm no mason, it took about a month to do. I'll get a new pic when it's going.

-Dan

 

[dwillistein]

oh, and it's got a blower!

 

[joecool85]

I got the Liberty tonight and it looks like I'll have to do 2 45 degree pipes to bring it out a little further.
-Dan

That's the way to do it, glad to hear you have the room and are going to use it safely.

 

[dwillistein]

In reading the manual again, it is pretty straightforward that they list the clearances to combustibles (9.5" corner for example) and that they can be reduced using the methods listed in the NFPA code. So, I'll be avoiding the bends in the pipe which will help draft and make for a cleaner install. I'll get another pic tonight. No worries.

 

[joecool85]

In reading the manual again, it is pretty straightforward that they list the clearances to combustibles (9.5" corner for example) and that they can be reduced using the methods listed in the NFPA code. So, I'll be avoiding the bends in the pipe which will help draft and make for a cleaner install. I'll get another pic tonight. No worries.

It's up to you, but insurance companies may only go by the listed clearances. I always err on the side of caution.