Replacing my Fisher papa bear

[bholler]

Just about every mid sized to large noncats will easily go 8 hours with allot of heatoutput. Yes blaze kings burn slow and long but at much lower heatoutput. The gains in efficency are greatly exaggerated by the bk fan boys. I am not putting down blaze kings at all but i want to give a fair comparison between the two types an in order to burn through a load in the 30 in 3 hours it would have to be run wide open. Doing so is wasting massive ammouts of heat and is not burning it proprly at all. You will actually get much more heat out of the stove by shutting it back and burning it right

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Thanks for the hands on experience! This is very helpful.

I burn seasoned wood in my fisher. But sometimes I get wood that isn't quite dry enough. It's rare but it happens. How does a BK Princess handle a few 30% sticks in the mix. Same question for the NC30?

Both stoves will run better on well seasoned wood, and most try to get at least a couple years ahead on wood if they have the room.

A non cat stove will still run on mostly dry wood. It will smoke more, put out less heat (because some of that heat is being used to cook off water), and will need more air, lowering burn time.

I'll let one of the guys with a cat stove tell you how they will react.

 

[edyit]

from what i understand the 30 hour burn times on a BK are when it's run on low. you're heating from a basement so i doubt you'll be running it on low. i don't know how hard you ran the Fisher either, but take that into consideration as well when making your decision.

 

[Mike M.]

Did you look at the Summit from PE? I think you would like it more than a NC30. Summit is built to last, NC30 has a few weak points but still a great stove and value. Someday I hope to replace my NC30 with a Summit.

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[45cheese]

Going to check it out now...

 

[45cheese]

I looked over the Pacific Energy summit. So far it's every thing I think I want in a stove. Seems to be built very well. Also affordable for me in its standard black setup with just a pedestal. I found a dealer 17 miles from me and I will go check it out later this week. Thanks everyone for your advice. Everyone here seems very knowledgeable

 

[Highbeam]

Just about every mid sized to large noncats will easily go 8 hours with allot of heatoutput. Yes blaze kings burn slow and long but at much lower heatoutput. The gains in efficency are greatly exaggerated by the bk fan boys. I am not putting down blaze kings at all but i want to give a fair comparison between the two types an in order to burn through a load in the 30 in 3 hours it would have to be run wide open. Doing so is wasting massive ammouts of heat and is not burning it proprly at all. You will actually get much more heat out of the stove by shutting it back and burning it right

Do you realize that you seem to like to pick fights with people? Going out of your way to be abrasive and confrontational?

Anyway, I don't think the efficiency improvement between modern non-cat stoves and modern cat stoves is that big of a deal. Usually just 5-10%. But between the old fisher and the BK will be an enormous improvement. Enough to pay for many cats. Bholler has never burned a BK so has no real experience to say one way or the other, but I do.

I do not run my NC30 wide open to burn through a load in three hours. I run it at 700 degrees stove top temp at medium throttle settings. Again, I actually have real experience doing this and I assure you that I am operating the stove properly per the owner's manual. I agree that efficiency may not be as good when running at 700 but I'm not aiming for maximum efficiency with the NC30. Otherwise I would have bought a cat stove and saved tons of wood!

 

[Highbeam]

Thanks for the hands on experience! This is very helpful.

I burn seasoned wood in my fisher. But sometimes I get wood that isn't quite dry enough. It's rare but it happens. How does a BK Princess handle a few 30% sticks in the mix. Same question for the NC30?

Both stoves are surprisingly tolerant of a bit of unseasoned wood. Your efficiency will go down since part of the energy of the fuel will be used to boil off water and chimney creosote accumulations will go up if you don't keep the stoves running hot enough to prevent condensation of all that water. You can mix in very dry wood or manufactured firewood to lower the average moisture content of the fuel load.

EPA stoves need dry wood to run cleanly, efficiently, and to hit the rated specifications. Aim for 20% or less. Maybe set aside those 30% splits for another year.

 

[HisTreeNut]

I have a Buck 94NC, which is a large non cat stove. I went with that vs a cat stove because of my wood situation (having to buy wood, limited space, living un a humid area, moisture content not optimal...non-cats are a little more forgiving with "wet" wood.)
I am able to heat about a 2200 sq' ranch solely with the stove, using heaters on fringe rooms during single digit weather.
Softwoods give us 4-6 hours of heat with enough coals to restart the next load. Hardwoods give us about 7-9 hours of heat with a good coal bed to restart the next load.
The downside to the stove is you do have to play with the air control and the wood a little more to keep sustained heat going. We don't mind so it works for us.
Just some more food for thought for you...

 

[Highbeam]

I looked over the Pacific Energy summit. So far it's every thing I think I want in a stove. Seems to be built very well. Also affordable for me in its standard black setup with just a pedestal. I found a dealer 17 miles from me and I will go check it out later this week. Thanks everyone for your advice. Everyone here seems very knowledgeable

So PE makes a great stove but let's try and see what you are getting for the additional money? The big one for me is the stainless steel baffle board at the top of the firebox. Almost every other non-cat has a sensitive ceramic board that can be damaged. Anything else? A bigger fireview window maybe?

Ack The cheapest PE I could find with the summit (biggest) firebox costs 2100$! That's crazy. Three times as much money as the NC30. Three times! For what?

 

[bholler]

So PE makes a great stove but let's try and see what you are getting for the additional money? The big one for me is the stainless steel baffle board at the top of the firebox. Almost every other non-cat has a sensitive ceramic board that can be damaged. Anything else? A bigger fireview window maybe?

Ack The cheapest PE I could find with the summit (biggest) firebox costs 2100$! That's crazy. Three times as much money as the NC30. Three times! For what?

A flat stove front thay the door seals on well so you get much longer that 3 hour burntimes even at half throttle. Thicker metal. Dealer support. More control of the air. For the price the 30 is a great stove but there are much better stoves available.

 

[bholler]

Do you realize that you seem to like to pick fights with people? Going out of your way to be abrasive and confrontational?

Anyway, I don't think the efficiency improvement between modern non-cat stoves and modern cat stoves is that big of a deal. Usually just 5-10%. But between the old fisher and the BK will be an enormous improvement. Enough to pay for many cats. Bholler has never burned a BK so has no real experience to say one way or the other, but I do.

I do not run my NC30 wide open to burn through a load in three hours. I run it at 700 degrees stove top temp at medium throttle settings. Again, I actually have real experience doing this and I assure you that I am operating the stove properly per the owner's manual. I agree that efficiency may not be as good when running at 700 but I'm not aiming for maximum efficiency with the NC30. Otherwise I would have bought a cat stove and saved tons of wood!

I just have a problem when someone bashes an entire stove type because their buget stove of that type does not work as well as a top of their other stove that is top of the line. And i am sorry but if you are burning through a load of wood in a stove as big as the 30 in 3 hours at half throttle there is something wrong. You are running at 700 on the top what about the pipe? I run around 700 on the top to but only about 300 pipe temp. And i normally get atleast 8 hours of good heat

 

[EatenByLimestone]

For me, the extra cost of the PE (T5) over the 30 was worth it. I own both. Both are good stoves. I prefer the PE in every way over the 30. The only spot where the 30 wins hands down is cost. That's not insignificant, but when you figure lifetime of a stove, it isn't insurmountable.

 

[Highbeam]

I just have a problem when someone bashes an entire stove type because their buget stove of that type does not work as well as a top of their other stove that is top of the line. And i am sorry but if you are burning through a load of wood in a stove as big as the 30 in 3 hours at half throttle there is something wrong. You are running at 700 on the top what about the pipe? I run around 700 on the top to but only about 300 pipe temp. And i normally get atleast 8 hours of good heat

You seem to have a lot of problems with other people and their opinions. Please read more carefully before you bash.

To answer your questions I have excellent control of the burn rate and am impressed that I can easily snuff this stove if I shut the air down. After the initial flare off of a fresh load when flue surface temps hit 400-450, surface temps of my single wall flue pipe cruise at 350 (half of the stove top). Very normal and probably reasonably efficient. What you have to remember is that my full firebox of fuel is 3.5 cubic feet of doug fir, not oak, and I am running a blower to try and cool the stove which means I can run an even higher burn rate while keeping stove top temps at 700. Nothing is wrong except your thoughts and false assumptions about things. Also remember that I am heating a cold shop so I am able to run several consecutive three hour firebox fulls without having to turn the stove down because my space is too hot. Some of us have larger heating loads. I ONLY provided one data point on the NC30 and that is that at high burn you can blow a firebox in three hours, I also said that folks can get much longer burns at lower settings. Try and read before you bash other people.

I have run top of the line non-cats at this house. Lopi freedom bay insert, then a long time with a hearthstone heritage, and now the vastly superior BK princess. Unless you've run a BK you are ignorant about them. You don't know what you're talking about. It's unfortunate because I really do believe you have vast knowledge in other areas that is valuable to the forum.

 

[Mike M.]

The Summit baffle is nice if someone other than you load the stove. Possibly your spouse or kids... I am very careful to not hit the NC30 burn tubes and baffles, others may not be so careful. With the Summit this is not an issue.

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[Highbeam]

A flat stove front thay the door seals on well so you get much longer that 3 hour burntimes even at half throttle. Thicker metal. Dealer support. More control of the air. For the price the 30 is a great stove but there are much better stoves available.

To answer your points since you quoted me.

1) Yep, my NC30 seems to have a little space on the bottom middle sealing surface when I lay a straight edge across the bottom of the door opening. My stove might be rare in this way or maybe it's common. The gasket seems to fill this dip and seal just fine and the stove is still controllable but I would prefer a flat surface. If I was buying a new stove of any brand I would check for this and avoid it.

2) Thicker body metal is not important at all. The steel on the NC30 is thicker than my much more expensive BK. I have managed to slightly sag an internal metal bit which bummed me out. I called the manufacturer and they offered to swap stoves if it bothered me. It hasn't bothered me. Turns out that this happens a lot to all brands. The Woodstock guys get lots of melted internal parts. I've seen plenty of melted and distorted PE baffles too!

3) Dealer support. Who cares? Dealers are NOT important when you have a good manufacturer that answers the phone. Welcome to the new millennium.

4) My NC30 offers excellent control of the air. There is nothing that I would improve in this regard except to automate it with a thermostat of some sort like a wood furnace or BK thermostat.

So what makes a 2000-3500 dollar non-cat better than a 700$ non-cat? In real, actual, things that have value. Let's not forget that even PE has had problems with cracks.

 

[Highbeam]

For me, the extra cost of the PE (T5) over the 30 was worth it. I own both. Both are good stoves. I prefer the PE in every way over the 30. The only spot where the 30 wins hands down is cost. That's not insignificant, but when you figure lifetime of a stove, it isn't insurmountable.

The T5 is nice stove. It would be the non-cat I choose for my house stove if I were to switch from cats. The cast iron cladding looks good and the welded steel firebox means no gaskets. The t5 size firebox also has a pretty cool internal linkage design that actually closes the secondary air as you close the primary air control. This makes for longer possible burn times.

Also a big benefit of the PE line (NC30 too) is that they are designed to allow straight in, aka north south, loading of firewood. I've owned both N/S loaders and E/W loaders and strongly prefer not chucking wood in sideways!

I said earlier that the BK can burn for 30 hours on low output. It can but it is making less heat when you have it turned down that low. If you need more heat you will get shorter burn times. It seems obvious but I thought I should be clear to avoid confusion. The ability to burn very low or very high is very valuable to many of us that use wood for 100% of our heat.

 

[bholler]

1) Yep, my NC30 seems to have a little space on the bottom middle sealing surface when I lay a straight edge across the bottom of the door opening. My stove might be rare in this way or maybe it's common. The gasket seems to fill this dip and seal just fine and the stove is still controllable but I would prefer a flat surface. If I was buying a new stove of any brand I would check for this and avoid it.

So when you complain that non cats have no controll at all you were not telling the truth? When you complained about the face not being flat and claimed there was no way that it could be done you were wrong? When you complained about the open air coming in the dog house on the 30 that doesn't matter anymore?

3) Dealer support. Who cares? Dealers are NOT important when you have a good manufacturer that answers the phone. Welcome to the new millennium.

they may not be to you but many people dont want to or cant work on their stoves them selves with a stove with no dealer support those people are left on their own.

4) My NC30 offers excellent control of the air. There is nothing that I would improve in this regard except to automate it with a thermostat of some sort like a wood furnace or BK thermostat.

Then why have you complained about the unrestricted air and the bowed front?


Listen I get it you like your bk allot and they are great stoves. I dont want to take away from the stove at all. But you say I know nothing because I have never burnt a bk. But you constantly bash noncats and you have not burnt all of them by any means.

To the op I am sorry this turned into yet another cat vs non cat fight I will not continue it on my part anymore so it can get back to your questions.

 

[45cheese]

I am learning from the debate we are having. I do not mind at all.

I have learned things I didn't even consider asking.

 

[bholler]

I am learning from the debate we ate having. I do not mind at all.

I don't mean to put down cat stoves at all if you have a need to burn low and slow often they are a great solution. Also if you mainly have access to soft woods I think they work much better with them because they slow down the really fast burn of soft woods. But non cats can also work very well and they cost less to buy and take less to maintain. It all comes down to your needs.

 

[45cheese]

Mostly oaks, maple, ash, and birch. Lucky to have a nice selection. Lots of dead standing behind my house. As far as softwood, I usually have a pile of popal and pine and is burned in the spring and fall or cut up for kindling. But mostly kindling.

 

[bholler]

Mostly oaks, maple, ash, and birch. Lucky to have a nice selection. Lots of dead standing behind my house. As far as softwood, I usually have a pile of popal and pine and is burned in the spring and fall or cut up for kindling. But mostly kindling.

same here as well we have a really nice selection I typically dont bother with pine. If I have to cut it for some reason I will burn it but I wont go after it. And I save the hickory and locust for the really cold nights.

 

[Highbeam]

So when you complain that non cats have no controll at all you were not telling the truth? When you complained about the face not being flat and claimed there was no way that it could be done you were wrong? When you complained about the open air coming in the dog house on the 30 that doesn't matter anymore?


they may not be to you but many people dont want to or cant work on their stoves them selves with a stove with no dealer support those people are left on their own.


Then why have you complained about the unrestricted air and the bowed front?


Listen I get it you like your bk allot and they are great stoves. I dont want to take away from the stove at all. But you say I know nothing because I have never burnt a bk. But you constantly bash noncats and you have not burnt all of them by any means.

To the op I am sorry this turned into yet another cat vs non cat fight I will not continue it on my part anymore so it can get back to your questions.

Weird. I think you failed to comprehend what I said. I have no problem with non-cat or cat stoves. They're both great. Is it your misunderstanding and assumptions that cause you so much anger?

I really like my non-cat. They all have some control, you can choose between hot and hotter. What kind of moron do you think I am that I wouldn't realize that there is an air control lever on the front?

Dealers are not important. Stove service companies and even installers have a valuable part in society since as you say, not everyone can sweep a chimney. My problem is with another middle man dealer adding a profit to the stove sale but adding no value. How does the dealer add value in a way that a stove service provider can't? I assume that there is a mutually beneficial relationship between the manufacturer and the dealer at the expense of the customer and that's why dealers seem so protective of their little arrangement.

I haven't complained about the imperfect frame seal on the front of my nc30 but I did acknowledge this fault. You don't seem to understand the difference between complain and discuss. This is a forum, not everybody that says something is complaining. And of course I know that it is possible to build a stove with a flat front. I can't tell if you're stupid or you think that I am stupid.

I never bash non-cats. Are you smoking crack? I own one and it is great. I also own a cat and it is great. They are both excellent technologies with different strengths.

Why don't you stop, take a breath, read carefully, and before typing focus on contributing in a constructive manner. Focus on not attacking anybody for anything. You are not the internet police and you are free to present your viewpoint without trying to reprimand others.

 

[begreen]

It's 53F outside and we are heating with the woodstove. It's comfortable and fine inside, not overheated at all. Living room is at 74ºF. There are many more degrees with a non-cat besides hot and hotter.

 

[Mike M.]

NC30 is cat approved.

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