RTV setup time

[DUMF]

lol... always good, DUMF. I only have a problem with one thing you said, there: "Mc".

Back to the question on permanent gaskets, such as you'd find on the oven in your kitchen. I'd suspect it's much less likely to get damaged by errant handling of a split (ever swing around with a split in your hand and catch the door?), than that on a wood stove. Also, I do not believe my kitchen oven needs to be nearly as air tight as my wood stove loading door, nor do I think it's opened and closed as frequently as most wood stove doors.

Right. But 'rubber' or poly-whatever gaskets are used on extreme conditions with pressure or fluid requirements --space rockets, subs, vehicles, refrigerators, engines.
And, forgive this, I NEVER wood hit a gasket or door with a split, errant or not except when drinking. Never.

 

[tarzan]

There is no real reason that a stove (oven) type gasket could not be designed to work on a wood-stove. Just have it clip into the steel frame part that holds in the glass, for example. Those oven gaskets just about last forever.

I am into Kamado BBQ & the manufacturers have a similar issue. One of the cheap steel Kamadoes uses an oven type gasket & they last well. The ceramic kamadoes have historically used felt or nomex, which just doesn't last under high heat -- like a pizza cook, consequently the gasket gets burned up & replaced often. The manufacturers have been "too lazy" to come up with a better solution, other than the super ultra expensive brand (uses a silicone gasket in a protected groove).
Finally, Kamado Joe, even a Chinese import, has come up with an oven type bonded to the ceramic somehow -- they are considering making it a lifetime warranty item. In time, maybe the wood stove manufacturers will get smart & make a gasket improvement.

I have that cheap steel Kamado with an oven type gasket It gets used almost daily, even in winter. Only about 8 months old now but the gaskets are holding up well to the regular pizza and steak cooking temps.

Local grocery store kept marking this thing down. Picked it up when they got to $149.99! Now my kettle grill with side table is just storage space.

 

[Elciteeve]

Now for the engineers among us, and stove designers: how about just plain doing away with loose, replaceable gaskets altogether ? How about
what's used to seal pressure vessels ( like subs, engines, rockets ), or car doors and windows ? Is there a permanent gasket material like the 'rubber' compounds that will take high heat ?

I just had a thought. I work with like 30 electrical and mechanical engineers. I could just go ask one of them what we use on our high temp machines we build. We have thousands of silicone / kevlar / carbon fibre etc. types of gaskets. I'm guessing someone around here has some good ideas. We do a lot of ordering from industrial manufacturers too so there's a lot of materials unknown to the general public in use here.

 

[bcrtops]

I have that cheap steel Kamado with an oven type gasket It gets used almost daily, even in winter. Only about 8 months old now but the gaskets are holding up well to the regular pizza and steak cooking temps.

Local grocery store kept marking this thing down. Picked it up when they got to $149.99! Now my kettle grill with side table is just storage space.

You on kamadoguru.com ? Check it out

 

[Elciteeve]

Well I just talked to three different engineers who all work on some of our high temp projects, fuel cells, metal sintering 3d printers, stuff like that. They all basically came up with exactly what is on the stove is the best method. "A fibrous ceramic woven material either held in place with a metal jig welded on, or glued in place with high temp epoxy or silicone."

 

[begreen]

Finally the design of the door and gasket is important here. The BK and Begreens t6 have knife edge gaskets which go to hell pretty fast since it has high psi in one place. The NC30 door gasket seals against a flat face of the stove and I don't see replacing that one for 10 years! I also believe that the non-cats can tolerate a leaky door gasket since they are already full of holes providing combustion air all the time.

Correction - our Alderlea T6 does not have a knife-edge gasket. The newer Alderleas may have this, but not the original. Our stove has a skinny 5/16" gasket that presses flat against the stove face.

Unfortunately the replacement gasket I got in Seattle is not working out. I think it is too stiff and leaking air through an insufficient seal. I can tell by where the air control now needs to be set and by higher flue temps. Ordering factory OEM gasket now and will get a spare too.

 

[bcrtops]

Correction - our Alderlea T6 does not have a knife-edge gasket. The newer Alderleas may have this, but not the original. Our stove has a skinny 5/16" gasket that presses flat against the stove face.

Just looked at a T5 in the store -- may be last years model, but it has the same 5/16" gasket. (Was hoping they had improved the hinge design). Looks altogether like the same exact stove they made 9 years ago!

 

[bholler]

the stoves could be re-loaded 2x-3x/day

And I load mine exactly the same number of times with oil backup. Which is what I was saying all along just because you dont have a backup does not mean you load more.

BTW: it is easier to not give out personal info such as brands. This ain't a selfie.

I understand that but you are talking about how often you need to change gaskets while the rest of us dont have to near as often so I thought knowing what stove you were running could help others or those of us that work on stoves all the time might be able to give you pointers on what gasket or adhesive to use that might give you more life.

 

[begreen]

Just looked at a T5 in the store -- may be last years model, but it has the same 5/16" gasket. (Was hoping they had improved the hinge design). Looks altogether like the same exact stove they made 9 years ago!

The T5 does not have the knife-edge gasket logo in its features list on the Pacific Energy website. The enameled T5 classic and the new T6 does. I'll ask Tom about it when ordering the new gaskets. I don't have a big problem with the original gasket design. Our first gasket lasted a long time and worked well. It was just with the replacement gaskets that I had issues. Going back to the OEM gasket asap.

 

[begreen]

BTW: it is easier to not give out personal info such as brands. This ain't a selfie.

We strongly encourage folks add the stove make/model to the signature line. It's very helpful to all when there is an issue or feature reported and for many others that want to know more about your particular model stove.

 

[bcrtops]

The T5 does not have the knife-edge gasket logo in its features list on the Pacific Energy website. The enameled T5 classic and the new T6 does. I'll ask Tom about it when ordering the new gaskets. I don't have a big problem with the original gasket design. Our first gasket lasted a long time and worked well. It was just with the replacement gaskets that I had issues. Going back to the OEM gasket asap.

Gasket on mine was fine for 5 yrs. & would have been fine then, except for hinge issues. Current hardware store gasket has served fine for 3 yrs. & only will be replacing when I re-work the hinge again this summer -- just in case the clearances have changed some. Nothing wrong with the gasket design in comparison to other stoves.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

lol... always good, DUMF. I only have a problem with one thing you said, there: "Mc".

Back to the question on permanent gaskets, such as you'd find on the oven in your kitchen. I'd suspect it's much less likely to get damaged by errant handling of a split (ever swing around with a split in your hand and catch the door?), than that on a wood stove. Also, I do not believe my kitchen oven needs to be nearly as air tight as my wood stove loading door, nor do I think it's opened and closed as frequently as most wood stove doors.

Hold on there. There is no place for anti Irish bigotry here. I thought that we'd gotten past that back in the 1800s.

 

[begreen]

The T5 does not have the knife-edge gasket logo in its features list on the Pacific Energy website. The enameled T5 classic and the new T6 does. I'll ask Tom about it when ordering the new gaskets. I don't have a big problem with the original gasket design. Our first gasket lasted a long time and worked well. It was just with the replacement gaskets that I had issues. Going back to the OEM gasket asap.

OK, just ordered a new OEM gasket and red RTV from Tom up in Bellingham. The last 2 Alderleas he sold do not have a knife-edge gasket. On the original topic, Tom has been using red RTV with good success. It has a 100º higher temp reading than the black RTV. He also confirmed that the Meeco gasket I got is very stiff. It's not sealing as tightly as the OEM gasket on our stove and you can really notice it in day to day operation. During the initial outgassing bloom the flue temps are too high, even with the air completely closed. I will replace the Meeco gasket with OEM when it arrives and will use red RTV.

 

[DUMF]

OK, just ordered a new OEM gasket and red RTV from Tom up in Bellingham. The last 2 Alderleas he sold do not have a knife-edge gasket. On the original topic, Tom has been using red RTV with good success. It has a 100º higher temp reading than the black RTV. He also confirmed that the Meeco gasket I got is very stiff. It's not sealing as tightly as the OEM gasket on our stove and you can really notice it in day to day operation. During the initial outgassing bloom the flue temps are too high, even with the air completely closed. I will replace the Meeco gasket with OEM when it arrives and will use red RTV.

All very comforting. All these wordings. But the question posted by Mr. DUMF remains: with all the angst about gasketing ( 1,2,10 years, who cares, it is a PITA ) --------
1. Has anyone used Permatex Red for complete full gaskets without the fibre gaskets ( we have used this on engines and exhaust systems ) ? AND
2. Why not manufacture PERMANENT 'rubber' or poly-whatever gaskets as are used in much more demanding applications ?
Curious minds................

 

[Elciteeve]

All very comforting. All these wordings. But the question posted by Mr. DUMF remains: with all the angst about gasketing ( 1,2,10 years, who cares, it is a PITA ) --------
1. Has anyone used Permatex Red for complete full gaskets without the fibre gaskets ( we have used this on engines and exhaust systems ) ? AND
2. Why not manufacture PERMANENT 'rubber' or poly-whatever gaskets as are used in much more demanding applications ?
Curious minds................

Well the reason all the engineers I spoke with this morning used (one more chimed in now, while his work wasn't heat specific like the others he does have a masters in mechanical engineering and a PhD in marine engineering, as well as a few of the techs who work with the high temp materials) is simply that the gasket has better insulating properties and is more resilient - The use of RTV only was a non thought for any of them, they all said that was simply a means to using the superior gasket. That being the woven fibrous ceramic cloth. So the simple answer is that there isn't a better option that exists currently that is known to the industrial manufacturing market.

If you want something better, weld up a jig to your stove that fits just the gasket and is held in place by pressure (this was actually the preferred solution they agreed upon - they all said given how stoves work that using RTV wouldn't be the most effective solution, and that it was probably only not used to save manufacturing costs)

 

[Hogwildz]

Correction - our Alderlea T6 does not have a knife-edge gasket. The newer Alderleas may have this, but not the original. Our stove has a skinny 5/16" gasket that presses flat against the stove face.

Unfortunately the replacement gasket I got in Seattle is not working out. I think it is too stiff and leaking air through an insufficient seal. I can tell by where the air control now needs to be set and by higher flue temps. Ordering factory OEM gasket now and will get a spare too.

The factory isn't high density graphite impreg? The Summit uses a 7/8" more flatter rectangular gasket rather than round.

 

[begreen]

The factory isn't high density graphite impreg? The Summit uses a 7/8" more flatter rectangular gasket rather than round.

I believe it is, will verify when it arrives. But it is a narrow, round little fellow, not at all like the wide Summit gasket. I tried a scrap of 3/8" for fit and it was too large.

 

[jharkin]

Right. But 'rubber' or poly-whatever gaskets are used on extreme conditions with pressure or fluid requirements --space rockets, subs, vehicles, refrigerators, engines.
And, forgive this, I NEVER wood hit a gasket or door with a split, errant or not except when drinking. Never.

Just because a "rubber like" material was used on the O-rings of the shuttle SRBs doesnt automatically mean that consumer RTV is foolproof for a woodstove.

"Rubber like" materials include a very large variety of synthetic and naturally derived materials, with a wide range of different properties:
Silicones
latex
vulcanized rubber (oil derived)
synthetic rubbers like viton and neoprene
various other synthetic polymers like polypropelene, tygon, etc.


Remember that the "RTV" in RTV Silicone stands for Room Temperature Vulcanizing. Its meant to setup at normal human temps as soon as its been exposed to air once. Certain blends like Permatex Red and Copper can withstand some fairly high temps but like somebody observed up thread (was it Bart?) they all top out around 600-700ish. Lots of guys use it on doon gaskets and we probably get away with it because its rare to get a doorframe over 700 unless you are in overfire. I would not use it on interior gaskets like the inner panels on a VC stove for example.

FYI I use silicone a lot in small engines. Permatex Black (oil resistant) if I need to make a gasket for the carb (be careful NOT to use it anywhere directly in the fuel system however - direct gas exposure will dissolve it and chunks of silicone will clog your carb). Permatex Red (high heat) to seal the muffler port on 2 strokes. Mufflers see pretty high heat and Ive never had it burn up on me yet...

 

[DUMF]

T.M.I. Jeremy...TMI.
But, interesting. I'm sticking ( "sticking" ) to high density impregnated gaskets with Rutland black special gasket cement.
Very interesting discussions all. Some fascinating info shared...THX !

 

[bholler]

Rutland black special gasket cement.

for what it is worth after using all different products for gaskets that would be one of my last choices.

 

[begreen]

OK, I pulled the stiff 5/16" gasket today. The stove was running hotter and flue temps even more so. I suspected the gasket was leaking due to not enough contact area and it being too stiff. I laid it down next to the replacement OEM gasket and found the OEM to be much thicker so I measured both. The 5/16" was true sized, but the OEM PE Alderlea gasket is actually 7/16" in spite of the manual and packaging saying it is 5/16". The new gasket is in now with red RTV. Stove is behaving a whole lot better, back to its normal well behaved self in spite of a 30mph wind outside.

 

[Ashful]

begreen, when buying rope gasket from commercial sources, you'll see they're generally classified as "woven" or "braided". Sometimes they refer to woven as "soft" and braided as "dense" or "stiff". Looking at your gaskets, I wonder if that Meeco is braided, and the PE is woven. Is it indeed much softer and more flexible than the Meeco? If so, I believe the size difference might be accounting for the different compressed thicknesses of the two, as the woven gaskets much have a higher compression ratio (to relaxed diameter) to achieve the same seal.

I prefer the stiffer braided gaskets, as they're definitely more durable, but they're also pretty un-forgiving to installation error. They just don't compress as easily and nicely.

 

[Squisher]

By all reports. The PE's pretty well require the stock gasket to work properly. Nothing to do I think with how a non OEM one is installed. Just what the stove is designed for.

 

[Ashful]

By all reports. The PE's pretty well require the stock gasket to work properly. Nothing to do I think with how a non OEM one is installed. Just what the stove is designed for.

Not arguing, but just saying that OEM gasket is likely woven, whereas his Meeco gasket is likely the stiffer braided. It would be nice to properly identify the OEM gasket, for future reference. Many PE owners here, who will need the gasket, someday.

 

[Squisher]

Begreen has the stats. It's graphite impregnated or something or rather. I don't believe it's available aftermarket. I'd be curious to know if anyone knows of a good off brand source?

It's not hard to identify which one to get. It's the PE one from your dealer for your model of PE.