Rumford retrofit?

[LongshoreMatt]

I an considering retrofitting a rumford fireplace in our 11 year old house. Has anyone been down this road? The original fireplace was installed for primarily aesthetics but we chose a rumford to minimize the net negative that is typically associated with wood fireplaces. We heat the house with ground source heat pumps, so we run the rumford in the evenings sometimes and on the weekends. Meeting our heating needs 100 percent is not a priority, but it would be great to take some pressure off the heat pumps in the winter months. If it were up to my wife we would continue as is with the rumford. I desire a wood insert or wood stove so that we can increase efficiency and so we can have a sealed, safe fire. I am considering a Princess insert, but there is considerable masonry cost associated with the liner install (need to remove bluestone cap), new raised hearth, and everyone is hesitant to render the beloved rumford inoperable.

Another option we are considering is installing a stand alone stove adjacent to the rumford with its own chimney.

I am looking for advice from people who may have been down this road before and like minded wood burners.

 

[moresnow]

House size, configuration? Can't seem to find Applesucks2019! for a relative geographic location? Fill us in. Welcome to Hearth.

 

[LongshoreMatt]

House size, configuration? Can't seem to find Applesucks2019! for a relative geographic location? Fill us in. Welcome to Hearth.

sorry about that. I am located on the south shore of Long Island, so the climate is somewhat mild.

 

[EbS-P]

I’d be looking at freestanding stove to install in/ in front of the rumford. Small top vent options might be a morso, Jotul 602, VC Aspen C3. Bigger rear vent Jotul F45 I don’t see the Princess insert really looking good? What are the dimensions

 

[bholler]

Most inserts won't fit in a Rumford without lots of modifications

 

[DuaeGuttae]

I’d be looking at freestanding stove to install in/ in front of the rumford. Small top vent options might be a morso, Jotul 602, VC Aspen C3. Bigger rear vent Jotul F45 I don’t see the Princess insert really looking good? What are the dimensions

I was thinking about Woodstock’s Progress Hybrid in front of the fireplace.

 

[Bad LP]

Most inserts won't fit in a Rumford without lots of modifications

When designing our house I had visions of a Rumford FP but my mason didn't have a clue on them and did not want to start learning how at his age. I really wanted one and was disappointed.
In the end I'm so happy he didn't.

 

[ctyankee]

Welcome LongshoreMatt. This forum is truth be told a stove forum. Virtually all the discussions of open fireplaces are negative. Most fireplaces probably don't work well. Most on here have never experienced a well functioning fireplace, which makes sense. You appear to have a well functioning one. That's a nice chimney up there btw. If you have another spot for a stove (not adjacent ideally but another part of room, or another room), I'd say go for that. Best of both worlds. What's not to love?

 

[LongshoreMatt]

Welcome LongshoreMatt. This forum is truth be told a stove forum. Virtually all the discussions of open fireplaces are negative. Most fireplaces probably don't work well. Most on here have never experienced a well functioning fireplace, which makes sense. You appear to have a well functioning one. That's a nice chimney up there btw. If you have another spot for a stove (not adjacent ideally but another part of room, or another room), I'd say go for that. Best of both worlds. What's not to love?

thank you for the feedback. The chimney is one of the reasons I am hesitating with the retrofit. The installer said the blue stone cap needs to come off so he can line the chimney. That would require scaffolding and at least 4 men up there to lift it off. I tend to agree with you, that perhaps we should install a stove somewhere else and leave the rumford. Unfortunately, the best unused space I have on the first floor is adjacent to the existing FP.

 

[LongshoreMatt]

House size, configuration? Can't seem to find Applesucks2019! for a relative geographic location? Fill us in. Welcome to Hearth.

Hi Morsenow- the house is 3100 ft. Main level is 1800 and upstairs is 1200 Ft. Existing FP is in the great room (16x32) on the west side of the house. The house is very well insulated, closed cell foam beneath first floor and open cell in all exterior walls and roof joists. We Have one 3 ton water to water ground source heat pump that heats the main level with radiant and a 2 ton water to air GSHP upstairs. 10 KW photovoltaic system on the roof. I am hoping that if I install a stove, I will be able to decrease my electric consumption in the winter months, and maybe have a net zero cost on an annual basis.

 

[LongshoreMatt]

When designing our house I had visions of a Rumford FP but my mason didn't have a clue on them and did not want to start learning how at his age. I really wanted one and was disappointed.
In the end I'm so happy he didn't.

Bad LP- honestly, I used to love the rumford. It drafts well, throws some heat into the room, and it sounds great. Then two years ago I started using a Kozy Heat Z42 at a seasonal cabin that I spend time at. Now that I have seen how much more useful heat can be obtained from a stove/insert, I want one for home.

 

[ctyankee]

I have a Morso stove and use it just about every day of the heating season. Supplemental heat in the kitchen. I heat primarily with oil. I use a fireplace only occasionally. So if I HAD to choose I would probably go with a stove. But I could live without the stove, I could live without the fireplaces. Fortunately I can have both. Maybe you can too. I only say not adjacent mostly for aesthetic reasons, maybe practical as well. Most here are retrofitting pos heatilators etc. You're in an uncommon situation.

 

[EbS-P]

thank you for the feedback. The chimney is one of the reasons I am hesitating with the retrofit. The installer said the blue stone cap needs to come off so he can line the chimney. That would require scaffolding and at least 4 men up there to lift it off. I tend to agree with you, that perhaps we should install a stove somewhere else and leave the rumford. Unfortunately, the best unused space I have on the first floor is adjacent to the existing FP.

Is the flue straight? If so it might be possible to push/pull the liner up from the fireplace. I emphasize the might part. Never done it. Seen a few videos. Put the flue cap on from the top and leave the stone in place??

 

[Bad LP]

Bad LP- honestly, I used to love the rumford. It drafts well, throws some heat into the room, and it sounds great. Then two years ago I started using a Kozy Heat Z42 at a seasonal cabin that I spend time at. Now that I have seen how much more useful heat can be obtained from a stove/insert, I want one for home.

Wanted ours mostly for ambiance thus the full sized masonry mass we built because the house is RFH.
I quickly decided that paying for LP and sending heat up the flue wasn’t going to fly sooooo in went the insert.

I never could have done that if the Rumford had been built. The bullet just missed me.

 

[N.E.K. - D.D.S.]

Welcome LongshoreMatt. This forum is truth be told a stove forum. Virtually all the discussions of open fireplaces are negative. Most fireplaces probably don't work well. Most on here have never experienced a well functioning fireplace, which makes sense. You appear to have a well functioning one. That's a nice chimney up there btw. If you have another spot for a stove (not adjacent ideally but another part of room, or another room), I'd say go for that. Best of both worlds. What's not to love?

This is very good advice for your particular situation.

thank you for the feedback. The chimney is one of the reasons I am hesitating with the retrofit. The installer said the blue stone cap needs to come off so he can line the chimney. That would require scaffolding and at least 4 men up there to lift it off. I tend to agree with you, that perhaps we should install a stove somewhere else and leave the rumford. Unfortunately, the best unused space I have on the first floor is adjacent to the existing FP.

There is no good reason to pay good money and go through this hassle to ruin a fireplace and chimney that (seemingly) actually works decently. Plus, the wife likes it. I bet you may like it again on a damp spring day when it is not cold enough for a wood stove.

If the space you have available is next to the fireplace, well so be it. It does not give you the range of heating location, but it still gives you the choice of using the stove or the fireplace (or both, actually). If you don't mind the look of metal insulated chimney pipe for the stove going through any levels above the stove and through the roof, then the separate stove sounds good to me.

Price it out, because I don't think you are going to save money by putting a liner in the fireplace chimney vs. putting in a stand alone metal chimney pipe. In fact the reline might cost you a lot more. And THEN they are going to say, OH you have to bring the stove out in the room more, you are blowing all the hot air out the chimney. THEN they are going to say, it is out so far, you need to extend the hearth. And on and on. They are not wrong. But, as you see, if you have a spot where the stove looks good and is convenient to access it and has proper clearances.... that will be the smoothest situation.

I was recentl;y stuck putting in a stove in front of one of my fireplaces because it got ruined by a crook of a chimney "licensed" "professional" and the fireplace is no longer usable. Yes there are a great many advantages to stoves, and I certainly advocate for them in many ways, but I kind of wanted ONE of my FOUR historic fireplaces to actually be a darn FIREPLACE.

One good thing is that there are certainly some honourable pros on this site and a lot of people are happy to give advice and discuss. The level of intelligence is quite high (relatively speaking) on this forum, compared to many other platforms.

I quickly decided that paying for LP and sending heat up the flue wasn’t going to fly sooooo in went the insert.

I never could have done that if the Rumford had been built. The bullet just missed me.

This is a completely understandable perspective from Northern Maine.

But down there... southern coast of Long Island... pfff.... have a short monitored fire to take the chill off a damp day... then close the flue.
The difference is that he CAN still have the stove, even though the Rumford has been built.

 

[stoveliker]

The Southern coast of long island has been 16 the last few nights and in the 20s during the day...

"Close the damper" in the chimney does not prevent heat going up. They don't seal. The damp day is perfect for a small fire in a stove without sucking in a lot of cold damp air because the fireplace blows out massive amounts of air thru the chimney.

With a stove and insulated block off plate, not much heat goes up there.

So, while the appeal and choice for a fireplace can be made based on aesthetic reasons, many of your arguments are just not correct.

 

[bholler]

This is very good advice for your particular situation.

There is no good reason to pay good money and go through this hassle to ruin a fireplace and chimney that (seemingly) actually works decently. Plus, the wife likes it. I bet you may like it again on a damp spring day when it is not cold enough for a wood stove.

If the space you have available is next to the fireplace, well so be it. It does not give you the range of heating location, but it still gives you the choice of using the stove or the fireplace (or both, actually). If you don't mind the look of metal insulated chimney pipe for the stove going through any levels above the stove and through the roof, then the separate stove sounds good to me.

Price it out, because I don't think you are going to save money by putting a liner in the fireplace chimney vs. putting in a stand alone metal chimney pipe. In fact the reline might cost you a lot more. And THEN they are going to say, OH you have to bring the stove out in the room more, you are blowing all the hot air out the chimney. THEN they are going to say, it is out so far, you need to extend the hearth. And on and on. They are not wrong. But, as you see, if you have a spot where the stove looks good and is convenient to access it and has proper clearances.... that will be the smoothest situation.

I was recentl;y stuck putting in a stove in front of one of my fireplaces because it got ruined by a crook of a chimney "licensed" "professional" and the fireplace is no longer usable. Yes there are a great many advantages to stoves, and I certainly advocate for them in many ways, but I kind of wanted ONE of my FOUR historic fireplaces to actually be a darn FIREPLACE.

One good thing is that there are certainly some honourable pros on this site and a lot of people are happy to give advice and discuss. The level of intelligence is quite high (relatively speaking) on this forum, compared to many other platforms.


This is a completely understandable perspective from Northern Maine.

But down there... southern coast of Long Island... pfff.... have a short monitored fire to take the chill off a damp day... then close the flue.
The difference is that he CAN still have the stove, even though the Rumford has been built.

How would they be ruining their fireplace? It's just putting a liner and block off plate in all easily reversible.

 

[N.E.K. - D.D.S.]

The Southern coast of long island has been 16 the last few nights and in the 20s during the day...

"Close the damper" in the chimney does not prevent heat going up. They don't seal. The damp day is perfect for a small fire in a stove without sucking in a lot of cold damp air because the fireplace blows out massive amounts of air thru the chimney.

With a stove and insulated block off plate, not much heat goes up there.

So, while the appeal and choice for a fireplace can be made based on aesthetic reasons, many of your arguments are just not correct.

If the theme of my post was "Wood stoves are garbage! Fireplaces awe awesome!", then I could understand receiving push back.

But this is not a fireplace vs. stove argument. If I had to choose only ONE device, it would be a wood stove.
This is a choice between option #1 a wood stove or option #2 a fireplace AND a wood stove.

My opinion is that #2 is better and I feel that this is obvious. The arguments that I have made in support of this opinion are not incorrect.

I never should have uttered the word "damper". People are going to point out that once the fire dies down, warm air of the room will go out the chimney, and this is true. My point was simply to enjoy the fireplace on that kind of day, monitor it, and then shut it down. Or don't! People can throw their fireplace in the garbage if they want!

I see the fireplace as more of a novelty to be used on an "as needed" basis, and quite a nice experience. The stove will be there and could be used for actual prolonged heating.

As for climate, yeah Long Island is relatively cold right now in the middle of January... but I can imagine some moment in some season when it would be pleasant to use the fireplace (which already exists in an apparently good install). The point was that I was actually agreeing with the experience Bad LP had about a fireplace being not useful for his situation in his climate.

How would they be ruining their fireplace? It's just putting a liner and block off plate in all easily reversible.

It is easily reversible for you. For LongshoreMatt it is reversible by paying a good amount of money to a professional.

I would bet that they are going to recommend an insulated liner. If they can't fit that in the chimney, they would do pour in insulation. I suppose it is still 'reversible'.... but in my case, I could not even find someone willing to remove the liner and poured insulation. They had enough easier straightforward jobs to do. On Long Island, I would bet the OP could get someone to do it, but I can't imagine it being cheap.

Matt can correct me if my inferences are incorrect, but it seems that:

- They already paid for the pretty and functional (as reported by the OP) fireplace.
- Wife likes to use this fireplace.
- OP appreciates advantages of a wood stove but also reports fondness for the "beloved rumford"
- The fireplace will no longer be functional

To me, that sounds like ruining the situation.
Even if the chimney itself is technically not "ruined", I think it is clearly a waste to decommission the fireplace and good chimney.

The installer said the blue stone cap needs to come off so he can line the chimney. That would require scaffolding and at least 4 men up there to lift it off.

Hahaha. Yes.
This is exactly what I mean.
Everyone really has to step back and look at the entirety of the situation.

This is not a stove vs. fireplace argument.
A wood stove is going in.
Why decommission the fireplace???

 

[bholler]

If the theme of my post was "Wood stoves are garbage! Fireplaces awe awesome!", then I could understand receiving push back.

But this is not a fireplace vs. stove argument. If I had to choose only ONE device, it would be a wood stove.
This is a choice between option #1 a wood stove or option #2 a fireplace AND a wood stove.

My opinion is that #2 is better and I feel that this is obvious. The arguments that I have made in support of this opinion are not incorrect.

I never should have uttered the word "damper". People are going to point out that once the fire dies down, warm air of the room will go out the chimney, and this is true. My point was simply to enjoy the fireplace on that kind of day, monitor it, and then shut it down. Or don't! People can throw their fireplace in the garbage if they want!

I see the fireplace as more of a novelty to be used on an "as needed" basis, and quite a nice experience. The stove will be there and could be used for actual prolonged heating.

As for climate, yeah Long Island is relatively cold right now in the middle of January... but I can imagine some moment in some season when it would be pleasant to use the fireplace (which already exists in an apparently good install). The point was that I was actually agreeing with the experience Bad LP had about a fireplace being not useful for his situation in his climate.



It is easily reversible for you. For LongshoreMatt it is reversible by paying a good amount of money to a professional.

I would bet that they are going to recommend an insulated liner. If they can't fit that in the chimney, they would do pour in insulation. I suppose it is still 'reversible'.... but in my case, I could not even find someone willing to remove the liner and poured insulation. They had enough easier straightforward jobs to do. On Long Island, I would bet the OP could get someone to do it, but I can't imagine it being cheap.

Matt can correct me if my inferences are incorrect, but it seems that:

- They already paid for the pretty and functional (as reported by the OP) fireplace.
- Wife likes to use this fireplace.
- OP appreciates advantages of a wood stove but also reports fondness for the "beloved rumford"
- The fireplace will no longer be functional

To me, that sounds like ruining the situation.
Even if the chimney itself is technically not "ruined", I think it is clearly a waste to decommission the fireplace and good chimney.



Hahaha. Yes.
This is exactly what I mean.
Everyone really has to step back and look at the entirety of the situation.

This is not a stove vs. fireplace argument.
A wood stove is going in.
Why decommission the fireplace???

Ok yes the liner needs to be insulated. No it absolutely should not be poured especially if a wrapped liner won't fit. Pour in insulation takes more space than wrap. By the looks of things it is a 12x12 liner so no issue at all. But even if it's an 8x12 you just use an oval liner. The liner can easily be pulled back out block off plate removed and damper made functional again in less than 2 hours. Installing a stove or insert is absolutely not ruining the fireplace. Infact the vast majority of people would consider it an improvement.


Btw an install in that fireplace should cost about half of what a new freestanding stove and chimney install would cost.

If they need scaffold and 4 people on the roof to handle installing a liner in that chimney they need to find a new line of work. In most cases I would simply cut a 1" diameter hole in the cap drop my hoist cable down through and pull the liner up. Then cover with a stainless plate.

If that isn't feasible that is at most a 2 man job to stand that up and brace it with 2x4s untill the liner is in. But I would probably do it myself

 

[stoveliker]

Why decommission the fireplace???

Because it doesn't make a lot of sense to actively cool a home the majority of the time during heating season, and to actively cool the majority of the home while the fireplace room gets warm.

A fireview can be had behind a glass.door,.or even with some stoves that can run with the door open

 

[N.E.K. - D.D.S.]

Btw an install in that fireplace should cost about half of what a new freestanding stove and chimney install would cost.

If they need scaffold and 4 people on the roof to handle installing a liner in that chimney they need to find a new line of work. In most cases I would simply cut a 1" diameter hole in the cap drop my hoist cable down through and pull the liner up. Then cover with a stainless plate.

If that isn't feasible that is at most a 2 man job to stand that up and brace it with 2x4s untill the liner is in. But I would probably do it myself

IF it were half the cost to put a stove in the fireplace vs. a separate stove install, it could be considered, but I personally would still prefer to have both devices.

You know you are going to tell him to extend the hearth for a stove. You've already (correctly) pointed out that an insert is difficult to fit on a Rumford fireplace. What is going to be better in that room - hearth extension or stove off to the side? For me it is the latter. ThE fireplace is pretty as is.

This is good information that you give, but he doesn't have the option of hiring you. Let's seeeee the quotes and proposals that these jokers might give the OP for the work.

Installing a stove or insert is absolutely not ruining the fireplace. Infact the vast majority of people would consider it an improvement.

I will agree that a stove vs. a fireplace is an improvement.
However, a non functional fireplace vs. functioning fireplace is not an improvement.
Therefore a stove AND a fireplace is better than just a stove.
Especially when he ALREADY HAS the fireplace (whether that was a mistake or not). Remember, we are not talking about a new install from scratch of both devices. In that case, I'd probably say, "oh just get a a stove.... something with nice view through the glass".

We agree much more than it appears. We just need to be looking at the big picture of his total situation.

Why decommission the fireplace???
Because it doesn't make a lot of sense to actively cool a home the majority of the time during heating season, and to actively cool the majority of the home while the fireplace room gets warm.

The majority of the time??? He would presumably be using the wood stove (and heat pumps) for heating.

Yes, the only place a fireplace really excels is heating the area immediately near the fireplace as an experience.

Of course, in regard to efficiency, a fireplace is not even in the same ballpark as a wood stove. Efficiency is not the point of using a fireplace. However, this notion that it somehow creates a NET loss of heat in the house is something that many of us really take issue with. For those of us with well designed fireplaces it is not something we have measured and it simply NOT our experience on a subjective level. Do you honestly think we would be using the fireplace at all if it made us overall LESS comfortable??

I guess there are a bunch of people here that hate their poorly performing fireplaces, and rightfully so. Some of us have a very different experience (quite often those of us with antique fireplaces in old homes).

The OP is already using heat pumps, so let's put the question to him. Does running your fireplace make your house overall colder? Do you spend more in electricity to run the heat pumps by USING your fireplace, rather than NOT using the fireplace? Are the distant rooms in your house colder than they would be otherwise, while only your fireplace room is warm?

If the answers are yes, then fine, forget the fireplace. But I did not read his experience as being that way.

 

[stoveliker]

The heat pump depends on where the thermostat is.
The point is that the majority of the time, the fireplace is not providing heat (not in use) while shuttling room temp air up the chimney.
And when in use it shuttles massive amounts of air up the chimney.

All that air has to be supplied by sucking in outside air into the home during the heating season.

So, yes. Fireplaces actively cool the home.

I'll end this here for me. The OP asked for advice. I gave my view (ambiance can be had without having the fireplace cooling your home).

You stated yours.

 

[bholler]

IF it were half the cost to put a stove in the fireplace vs. a separate stove install, it could be considered, but I personally would still prefer to have both devices.

As someone who quotes out both types of installs regularly I can tell you it should cost about double to install a separate freestanding chimney and stove compared to a stove and liner install in a fireplace assuming similar hearth costs.

The big picture is that he said he wants a stove or insert which is why I advised in that direction. My own fireplace in this house and my previous one both sat completely unused untill I installed a gas insert in my current one.

 

[N.E.K. - D.D.S.]

The heat pump depends on where the thermostat is.
The point is that the majority of the time, the fireplace is not providing heat (not in use) while shuttling room temp air up the chimney.
And when in use it shuttles massive amounts of air up the chimney.

All that air has to be supplied by sucking in outside air into the home during the heating season.

So, yes. Fireplaces actively cool the home.

I'll end this here for me. The OP asked for advice. I gave my view (ambiance can be had without having the fireplace cooling your home).

You stated yours.

I didn't think you were actually suggesting that heat loss from having a fireplace sitting there doing nothing is significant enough to motivate someone to get rid of a fireplace. Sure, a damper is not air tight. Neither is a house door, but most people want a door. Some people want a fireplace. I'd also stick a wool plug in the flue when not using it.

Yes, the two opinions have been expressed.

The fact of whether the OP's fireplace causes a NET loss of heat from his home and actively cools the home has not been measured.

Every fireplace sends air out of the house, and more so than pretty much every wood stove. However, it certainly is not the case that every fireplace actively cools the house more than the heat it generates, resulting in a NET loss of heat. If there is data to refute this, I would be interested in it, but it seems to be a phrase that is simply repeated without basis.

To be fair, you did not say there was a "net" loss of heat... just an "active" cooling of the home, which I suppose is technically correct. But by that rationale, every wood stove also "actively cools" a house. Though it obviously heats a lot more than it cools.

I have already acknowledged that stoves are obviously more efficient... and that they are better in every single parameter, except for one, which is the experience of an open fire. I do not advocate for a fireplace instead of a stove, or even to build new fireplaces in general. I just think it can be pleasant to keep a well built fireplace that is already there in addition to a stove.

However, this acknowledgement will never be enough for many on this forum. One must denounce the Satan that takes the form of an open fireplace.

As someone who quotes out both types of installs regularly I can tell you it should cost about double to install a separate freestanding chimney and stove compared to a stove and liner install in a fireplace assuming similar hearth costs.

The big picture is that he said he wants a stove or insert which is why I advised in that direction. My own fireplace in this house and my previous one both sat completely unused untill I installed a gas insert in my current one.

I fully agree you would be the authority on the pricing of such jobs. But we should also not overestimate the credibility of this dude that needs "scaffolding and at least 4 men" to do what you said you would prefer to do alone... and with a reasonable explanation of your process.

You said the insert wont easily fit in a rumford (correct) and the advice on the stove and liner is certainly appropriate. It would be an especially good idea if the fireplace and chimney were junk. It is STILL a good idea if the OP doesn't want to use the fireplace.

I guess my point is there are costs already invested in the nice fireplace and chimney.
For me, the options ranked from worst to best are:

1) Fireplace
2) Stove
3) Fireplace AND separate stove

But the OP will decide what is best for them. The stove will work fine with either option, and it mostly comes down to the esthetics and setup, the cost differential, and if he wants to keep the fireplace or not.

 

[stoveliker]

Yes it has been measured. I recently posted a link to a peer reviewed scientific paper where, if my memory serves me correctly, the data show that homes with fireplaces use 20-30 percent more energy per heating season than homes without.

I'll see if I can find it again.

I'm sorry, but one can perfectly choose for aesthetics. But one can't change the facts of the consequences of that choice.