Solution needed for poor draft, please

[Pinetar]

Hey gang, could use some help here as I just can't figure out how to get my insert running well.
Stats: 2750sqft ranch house, ~15ft center chimney with rain cap. House is tight -- oil furnace required outside air intake.
Insert: Jotul 550, all fresh splits read 20% or less on the moisture meter and most species is maples with some oak, cedar and some randoms mixed in. Wood burning is new-ish for me.
Issues: I have to run the stove with the door cracked, i.e. latched but not tight and not locked for 2 fills before I can try to lock the door tight. When I do lock it, the bright yellow flames go to the deeper oranges and the fire teeters on staying lit to failing. It usually fails and I have to break the seal on the door to get active flames again. Also, on every load smoke gets into the house; not smoked out, but enough to scent the house with that wood burners smell. So what gives? I've thought about everything from somehow extending the chimney to looking into balanced ventilation systems. I've ramped up quickly and am pretty proficient in getting good fires and great coal beds going, but leaving the door cracked is getting to me :/

 

[Huntindog1]

Use full firebox but leave enough room on top of your main wood load a pile a good kindling and a good fire starter.
Your wood could still be a little to much moisture. These EPA stoves dont work well with partial loads.

Are you using a liner?

Also your 15 foot chimney is a little on the short side.

 

[Grisu]

You can easily check whether your house is too airtight: Crack a window close by and see if that improves draft. The solution then would be to put an outside air kit in although that may prove difficult with an insert. Is there an ash dump in the fireplace underneath the insert?

15 ft of chimney is just minimum height. Does it have an insulated liner? It could be extended with an adapter plate and class A chimney.

Is the air control fully open when you close the door? Did you check whether the baffle sits correctly? The baffle plate on top of the burn tubes should be all the way to the back.

 

[weatherguy]

Best bet for better draft is to extend liner, I'd start there. Are you testing moisture content on a fresh split?

 

[Pinetar]

Use full firebox but leave enough room on top of your main wood load a pile a good kindling and a good fire starter.
Your wood could still be a little to much moisture. These EPA stoves dont work well with partial loads.

Are you using a liner?

Also your 15 foot chimney is a little on the short side.

Yes, using a 6" SS liner. I first thought my chimney was taller but a new calc put me closer to 15 + the cap. Getting to the partial load, most of my splits are 17-19 and I try to get three good splits in (I get this is relative) before I get smoked out -- I'm not cramming this thing full like when I first start it every time I add wood, I will try really loading it up on next fill to test.

 

[Pinetar]

Best bet for better draft is to extend liner, I'd start there. Are you testing moisture content on a fresh split?

I found this example for extending the liner -- is this what you mean? Also, testing on fresh splits, plus everything I'm burning is in the garage for a few weeks and in the house a week or so.

 

[Huntindog1]

Yes, using a 6" SS liner. I first thought my chimney was taller but a new calc put me closer to 15 + the cap. Getting to the partial load, most of my splits are 17-19 and I try to get three good splits in (I get this is relative) before I get smoked out -- I'm not cramming this thing full like when I first start it every time I add wood, I will try really loading it up on next fill to test.

So sounds like your draft is poor , so you should try extending the liner.

 

[Pinetar]

You can easily check whether your house is too airtight: Crack a window close by and see if that improves draft. The solution then would be to put an outside air kit in although that may prove difficult with an insert. Is there an ash dump in the fireplace underneath the insert?

15 ft of chimney is just minimum height. Does it have an insulated liner? It could be extended with an adapter plate and class A chimney.

Is the air control fully open when you close the door? Did you check whether the baffle sits correctly? The baffle plate on top of the burn tubes should be all the way to the back.

My new system is open the front door of the house, then open the insert door, this helps some with the smoke. I will try the window to check the tightness.

Liner is not insulated, I will google the what you wrote about the adapter and plate.

Air is fully open (can never shut it down), I will check the baffle tomorrow as I'm burning now-- it was a pro install so I hope it's right.

Forgot to mention - insert is sitting on the ash dump rendering it useless.

 

[jatoxico]

How long have you had the insert? Is this a new development? Cap obstruction? I agree with HuntingDog, 15' is the minimum and other factors can affect draft such as location of other structures or prevailing winds.

You said the wood is good but that's always a concern. Do what Grisu suggested, try running with a window open. Oh dumb question but just in case; you are opening the primary air all the way by sliding the knob fully to the right?

 

[rijim]

15' is short. I'm at 16' and burning when above 40 deg is near impossible. You air control lever is open when at full right; do you notice any difference when you move this? If you think the house is too tight; can you open a nearby window to test this?

 

[Pinetar]

How long have you had the insert? Is this a new development? Cap obstruction? I agree with HuntingDog, 15' is the minimum and other factors can affect draft such as location of other structures or prevailing winds.

You said the wood is good but that's always a concern. Do what Grisu suggested, try running with a window open. Oh dumb question but just in case; you are opening the primary air all the way by sliding the knob fully to the right?

Insert is brand new this year and I got seasoned wood in August in anticipation of this burning season. It was mostly big splits so I split most of it and all the last few test splits were all under 20% using one of the cheaper testers. And thanks for asking - the primary air is wide open to the right!

 

[Pinetar]

15' is short. I'm at 16' and burning when above 40 deg is near impossible. You air control lever is open when at full right; do you notice any difference when you move this? If you think the house is too tight; can you open a nearby window to test this?

Air lever is working as I can kill any flame by moving it to the left. I will test with the window soon.

 

[Pinetar]

If opening the window ends up proving the right draft -- what's my next move?

 

[Byrond]

(broken link removed to http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Tjernlund-Rooftop-Draft-Inducer-Wood-Solid-Fuels-Standard?gdftrk=gdfV23673_a_7c1677_a_7c8224_a_7c2560038&gclid=CPXjn-LX58ICFW4V7AoduV4Aiw)

Just a thought

 

[jatoxico]

Insert is brand new this year and I got seasoned wood in August in anticipation of this burning season. It was mostly big splits so I split most of it and all the last few test splits were all under 20% using one of the cheaper testers. And thanks for asking - the primary air is wide open to the right!

I know, had to ask. I would inspect the chimney to make sure the installer didn't pinch it getting it by the old damper and that the connection to the flue collar is tight. Push the skamol bricks up and to the side and you will be able to get a look at least part way up.

You could pop the cap off and add some cheap dryer vent and do a test to see if draft improves. I know you said you're checking moisture on a fresh split but you must be the only guy in the northeast that found a supplier selling wood that's actually seasoned. What does your moisture meter read on your palm? Should be like 35%.

 

[Pinetar]

I know, had to ask. I would inspect the chimney to make sure the installer didn't pinch it getting it by the old damper and that the connection to the flue collar is tight. Push the skamol bricks up and to the side and you will be able to get a look at least part way up.

You could pop the cap off and add some cheap dryer vent and do a test to see if draft improves. I know you said you're checking moisture on a fresh split but you must be the only guy in the northeast that found a supplier selling wood that's actually seasoned. What does your moisture meter read on your palm? Should be like 35%.

My wife just asked what the hell I was doing in the garage and I told her checking my palm moisture! 33-36 so my meter is alright. The stove guys warned me in July to get wood asap -- I got lucky with a mom and pop farm.

Old damper was notched out to make room but I will check as advised as soon as possible.

 

[Pinetar]

I've been running with the window open and the 550 loaded up (3d fill since 5PM) and door locked for about 50 minutes. Fire is out just now -- I have endless secondaries -- is this normal?

Given outside temps are not ideal, I will try this all again when temps drop.

 

[jatoxico]

Can you post some pics? Maybe something clicks. Other possibilities would be air escaping between the old chimney and the new liner. It's usually less of an issue for center installs but maybe it's stealing available draft from you. If the installer didn't insulate and seal up top that could be an issue.

If it takes getting the whole system hot before it drafts OK maybe you need some insulation or a block off plate. Are you comfortable taking the surround off? It's a bit of a pain but not too bad. With the surround off you can get a good look at everything down below.

Still betting on another 2-4' of stack helping.

 

[jatoxico]

I've been running with the window open and the 550 loaded up (3d fill since 5PM) and door locked for about 50 minutes. Fire is out just now -- I have endless secondaries -- is this normal?

Given outside temps are not ideal, I will try this all again when temps drop.

What are the stove temps?

 

[JBinKC]

My Jotul is a rear vented stove with minimal chimney length of 3ft back and 13ft up. (16 ft. total).I manage to make it work.For one I avoid building fires at temps above 45 degrees unless there is a decent breeze and I have poplar btu type firewood on hand.

Hope this helps.

I would first try fire building techniques to enhance draft first. A fire with logs placed E/W on top of 1 to 1 1/2 inch N/S kindling pieces using small sticks/splitter trash placed between them a fully loaded firebox placing the larger pieces (largest on windy days) in the front and smaller pieces in the back leaving a fire escape between them to the secondaries and make sure there isn't too much ash/coal build up in front of the air intake.

 

[Grisu]

I have endless secondaries

What do you mean by that? Is the air control still all the way open?

To make sure it is not the wood you could try burning some lumber scraps or some compressed wood logs (Envi-blocks, Biobricks etc.).

How much room did the insert have to the back of the fireplace? Did you put some insulation there?

 

[Pinetar]

What are the stove temps?

Temp is at 445 taking a reading aiming just inside the stove and above what some people call the dog house in the center of the stove using a laser thermometer.

Reading your last post I believe I have a block off plate. I can also post some pics -- what would help?

 

[Grisu]

Temp is at 445 taking a reading aiming just inside the stove and above what some people call the dog house in the center of the stove using a laser thermometer.

I assume you mean an IR thermometer with a laser pointer. Don't measure the temp in the firebox; that's unreliable and reflective surfaces like the door glass will throw off your readings. Take the hottest spot on the outside. Mine is in the front center just above the door from about 3" away.

 

[Pinetar]

What do you mean by that? Is the air control still all the way open?

To make sure it is not the wood you could try burning some lumber scraps or some compressed wood logs (Envi-blocks, Biobricks etc.).

How much room did the insert have to the back of the fireplace? Did you put some insulation there?

I mean that there are flames coming out of the tubes on the roof of the stove while no flame is visible on the logs - this went on while as I was burning with the insert door locked and the window open - I watched this happen for 5-10 minutes; longer than I've seen them before -- btw is that the wrong term to describe this?

I am going to chop up a kiln dried 2x4x8 I have and will burn that tomorrow.

No room or insulation behind the insert. It fit almost all the way to the back of the fireplace.

 

[Pinetar]

I assume you mean an IR thermometer with a laser pointer. Don't measure the temp in the firebox; that's unreliable and reflective surfaces like the door glass will throw off your readings. Take the hottest spot on the outside. Mine is in the front center just above the door from about 3" away.

Yes, that is what I mean! I just retook it and It's reading about 415 - same spot you described. When I said inside stove I meant inside the vent, not aiming at the glass