Some help new build would be greatly appreciated...

[usernametaken]

Hi guys. New guy here. To avoid the "search is your friend" and "didn't we just cover this?" replies, I've been reading thread after thread trying to make informed decisions for my new home build. I was trying to avoid another "new guy here" thread but alas, the more threads I absorb, the more unsure I am. So, hopefully you all can set me straight!

I'm building a new home with plenty of acreage for a free(ish) wood supply. I've heated with wood my whole life until my current home and have missed it since the day I stopped 5 years ago. The new house will be approximately 3000 sq/ft, have radiant floor heat, and have a LP boiler. In the past I've always had wood fireplace inserts. Vermont Castings Winter Warm and Avalon Rainier were my two recent ones. Now we are finally doing a build and can do what we want from the get go so it's time for a wood boiler... Man are there a lot of options. Eko, Tarm, Varm, WoodGun etc. for indoor and if I decide to go outdoor, the list doubles. I have read tons of threads on indoor vs. outdoor and tons more on brand choices and am no closer to a decision. Either would work for me and I know the advantages of each. I guess what's most important is a trusted nearby dealer and installer to work with. Central Boiler seems to be the only company to have a decent dealer locator system on their website. If I go indoor, any advice on dealers and installers in Western MA would greatly appreciated. I also would gladly take any advice on brand decision and the reasoning behind it. In other words, give me everything ya got! Thanks much in advance...

 

[maple1]

I was kind of set on as simple and easy to live with as possible - the getting it in & working things is the quick part, and will be forgotten about after years of living with it. Having a dealer close was not even on the chart, since there weren't any dealers anywhere within hundreds of miles of me selling anything worth considering. I was also comfortable doing the DIY thing.

That lead me to what I have. Natural draft is huge for me in a rural area prone to outages. From what I have seen, there is only one choice there. Maintenance & durability has been 100% - takes me 5 minutes once a week to brush & clean, no tools needed (aside from the brush). I could even do it while the boiler is burning, if I wanted to bad enough - I don't of course but that highlights the easy to do part & through design. Zero dollars spent on repairs etc. in 5 1/2 years of burning. I do have some cracked upper refractories, but have just left them in place with a layer of ash over them after seeing the first crack in my second year. The Varms don't even have gaskets on the doors to worry about. I am 20 something hours away from the dealer in another country, I think my boiler was in my driveway before my money went the other way - top notch, great service.

I would consider storage as a necessity, it makes overall operation so much more cleaner, efficient and easier to live with. Most gasifiers require it - some will work 'ok' without it. Can't help you on installer info, but the dealer or distributor may have local recommendations.

 

[salecker]

I wouldn't touch a Central Boiler with a barge pole,they have a lot of baggage,so does their dealer network.
I wouldn't put the boiler in my house,especially since i have had the pleasure of having mine in a separate building.
I have an Econoburn,i spent 3 months reading on here before i spent any money, Thank God.
I was all set with a list of 2 boilers to chose from and was going to pick up a bunch of underground pex in the drainpipe with pool noodles.Neither of those boiler/water heaters had good reviews.All would have been wasted money.
Now i have a system that heats our home at any temp with no issues.Plus we have no flame source in our home,no chance of carbon monoxide poisoning,no smoke,no bugs,no dust.And i have a warm workshop all winter long.
Econoburn has an excellent customer service policy that they live by.
A few more considerations,both my wife and daughter have asthma,our town has a volunteer fire department,our boiler building is our fire insurance.

 

[usernametaken]

Thanks much for the thoughts guys. As far as the importance of a local dealer, that would go hand in hand with a local installer. If a certain brand isn't sold locally, then there would likely be no one who is very familiar with said brand to be competent enough to install it. That was my line of thought there. I do like what I read about the ease of setup and cleaning of the Varm so, I'll continue reading there. Again, I have no idea who might sell them so I'll have to make some calls. You would think they would have a dealer locator on their site...

As to the indoor vs. outdoor, if I go indoor, technically it would be in the garage and not the basement. I realize that would still be having a flame source in an attached building but it wouldn't have quite the impact on the bug, smoke, CM, and dust fronts. It would also keep me from heading to the barn/woodshed area to fill in the worst weather. I do realize that CB has a sketchy past though and am researching other options if going outdoor. Econoburn is on the top of the list... My same concern about a local dealer (and finding one) applies there but perhaps I'm going at this from the wrong direction. Maybe I need to find an installer first and see what experience they have with certain brands instead of the other way around.

 

[maple1]

I would first settle on a boiler. Then if you are going to have it installed, find a good installer. A good installer should be able to install any good boiler - a good install comes more down to the install design than the appliance. If you can't find someone, ask the dealer you are buying from for a local recommendation. If I had prioritized having a local dealer I would have ended up with junk.

 

[JohnDolz]

Hi guys. New guy here. To avoid the "search is your friend" and "didn't we just cover this?" replies, I've been reading thread after thread trying to make informed decisions for my new home build. I was trying to avoid another "new guy here" thread but alas, the more threads I absorb, the more unsure I am. So, hopefully you all can set me straight!

I'm building a new home with plenty of acreage for a free(ish) wood supply. I've heated with wood my whole life until my current home and have missed it since the day I stopped 5 years ago. The new house will be approximately 3000 sq/ft, have radiant floor heat, and have a LP boiler. In the past I've always had wood fireplace inserts. Vermont Castings Winter Warm and Avalon Rainier were my two recent ones. Now we are finally doing a build and can do what we want from the get go so it's time for a wood boiler... Man are there a lot of options. Eko, Tarm, Varm, WoodGun etc. for indoor and if I decide to go outdoor, the list doubles. I have read tons of threads on indoor vs. outdoor and tons more on brand choices and am no closer to a decision. Either would work for me and I know the advantages of each. I guess what's most important is a trusted nearby dealer and installer to work with. Central Boiler seems to be the only company to have a decent dealer locator system on their website. If I go indoor, any advice on dealers and installers in Western MA would greatly appreciated. I also would gladly take any advice on brand decision and the reasoning behind it. In other words, give me everything ya got! Thanks much in advance...

"Local" dealer is an interesting term when it comes to woodboilers. I would say you have one of the best dealers in North America local to you (just 1 person's opinion) in Tarm USA. They are located about 3 hours away from you (a great thing if you ever need a part in a hurry) and they carry 2 great brands of Indoor Gasification boilers. When I was looking for my system, storage and someone to install my system were my top priorities. If I had to do it over again my top priority would be a knowledgeable dealer or hydronic engineer to design my system. With a properly designed system, with drawings from a professional, most qualified plumber/installers should be able to get your install complete. Regarding installing in your garage, I imagine someone will weigh in with more detail but I have read (on this blog) that insurance companies frown upon woodboilers in a garage. If you are bored and ever want to take a drive to Burlington, Ct you are welcome to come take a look at what I have here.

 

[usernametaken]

Thanks for the thoughts and offer to tour John! I was thinking I'd call Tarm on Tuesday and what you say makes sense and confirms that's a good decision. I'll also have to talk to insurance about garage, basement, and remote (outdoor) installs....

 

[salecker]

As to the indoor vs. outdoor, if I go indoor, technically it would be in the garage and not the basement. I realize that would still be having a flame source in an attached building but it wouldn't have quite the impact on the bug, smoke, CM, and dust fronts. It would also keep me from heading to the barn/woodshed area to fill in the worst weather. I do realize that CB has a sketchy past though and am researching other options if going outdoor. Econoburn is on the top of the list... My same concern about a local dealer (and finding one) applies there but perhaps I'm going at this from the wrong direction. Maybe I need to find an installer first and see what experience they have with certain brands instead of the other way around.

For us the walk to fill the boiler is no issue. - 40 put on a heavy coat.Snowing put on a hat.raining like last night get a wet head.Seeing i always have a warm place to tinker priceless.
We lived in our basement for 16 yrs before we put the log house on the basement.I used the boiler building for carpentry work and finishing all the trim for the house.I leave my stinky work coveralls there before i head to the house.I bought the outdoor Econoburn because it was priced right and i wasn't sure if i was going to get the boiler building finished before i needed the boiler.Technically the outdoor boiler is better than the inside boiler,even for inside because the insulation is better.

 

[Bad LP]

Tarm or Varm were my short list boilers as I have stated in the past. The drive to Tarm is not bad from Western Mass, I did it from Middlesex County Mass a couple of times to get my tanks and they are also very helpful over the phone and shipping was pretty quick.

My basement was designed for wood burning. The mess is easily swept up with a push broom. I bought one of those Strongway log carts from Northern Tool to move wood from the cold storage area capable of storing 8+ cords to the boiler. I have not seen a bug other than the normal spiders in the basement in the 11 years this house has been built. The basement is my work shop with saws, jointer, planner, air filter, plus a Bridgeport milling machine so dust is no big deal. There is a lot less wood ash from the boiler than a wood stove and it is much more dense. I pull it out onto an old cookie sheet then dump it into an ash bucket with a tight fitting lid.

I was not willing to deal with an outdoor boiler. Even adding one to my detached garage was not happening. Having fires burning in the home is not a worry. An insert is sitting in the LR fireplace and a large wood stove was always in the basement. I believe the boiler is safer than a wood stove now that I have it pretty much dialed in. We don't have a fire department in town, it's contracted out to a town south of here so any fire is not going to go well. I was 12 years on the FD down home in Mass so yes I'm careful. Loaded stream and large dry chemical units are close by.

All heat loss from the boiler and the tank storage room is within the building envelope. Putting on my slippers while half dressed is easier than boots and bundling up to trek out to an outbuilding. Humidity is being added by a steam unit installed in the central AC duct work.

 

[peakbagger]

I think a prior poster got a very key recommendation right which is get a good hydronic engineer. Unfortunately they are few and far between as most folks arent interested in paying for design. Thus it comes down to possibly that you get to become the hydronic engineer. The gold standard for hydronic engineers is John Siegenthaler and he has a few online courses. https://www.heatspring.com/app/courses/?query=biomass. The big key for maxmum efficiency ispend the money to build the house energy efficient from the beginning, Do a search for Pretty Good House which is high efficiency house standard that is intended to not break the bank like a Passivhaus (unless you really want to pay for green and sustainable cred, Passivhaus is quite pricey).

Now that you have tight envelope including insulated basement walls and floor, design for low temperature radiant. Strangely enough Sigenthaler is not a major fan on radiant floor across the board, he makes some very convincing arguments for radiant walls and ceilings and local panel emitters equipped with local temperature control. He used radiant floor slabs mostly in areas where there isnt wall space and specialty locations like bathrooms. One of the issues you run into is the This Old House effect, TOH gets paid to showcase product and sometimes the product is not the right product its the one they are getting paid the most to showcase. A radiant wall or ceiling is built on site and its not something you can buy out of distributor so its far less likely to show up on TOH.

I fundamentally believe that the heating source and storage should be in the heated envelope, any heat loss just goes into the space as uncontrolled heating. I am fan of installing an exterior bulkhead with a full height insulated "dog house" with an exterior insulated door at both the basement and exterior. I have removable steps and just dump the wood in with wheelbarrow. Its weatherstripped on the inside and no issue with bugs. I am not a fan of heating source outside the envelope as you are heating the outdoors. If you are worried about introducing a source of fire in structure put the boiler in separate room with rated firewall and put in fast response sprinkler heads.

I hear the comments about not minding going out to feed the boiler but I know of many folks where that got old fast. Realistically in Western Mass you are far better off with a big storage tank with low temperature hydronics to stretch your burns out 2 or 3 days during colder weather and once a day when you are down near design. Add in some PV generation with net metering and install a coupe of air to water mini splits and you are covered for shoulder season without burning any wood.

 

[maple1]

I fundamentally believe that the heating source and storage should be in the heated envelope, any heat loss just goes into the space as uncontrolled heating. I am fan of installing an exterior bulkhead with a full height insulated "dog house" with an exterior insulated door at both the basement and exterior. I have removable steps and just dump the wood in with wheelbarrow. Its weatherstripped on the inside and no issue with bugs. I am not a fan of heating source outside the envelope as you are heating the outdoors. If you are worried about introducing a source of fire in structure put the boiler in separate room with rated firewall and put in fast response sprinkler heads.

I hear the comments about not minding going out to feed the boiler but I know of many folks where that got old fast. Realistically in Western Mass you are far better off with a big storage tank with low temperature hydronics to stretch your burns out 2 or 3 days during colder weather and once a day when you are down near design. Add in some PV generation with net metering and install a coupe of air to water mini splits and you are covered for shoulder season without burning any wood.

Personally, I generally agree, but it becomes a moot point if your boiler is outside the house, but in another building where the standby loss will get used, and you are there a lot anyway. Such as in saleckers case.

 

[Karl_northwind]

I will say that Heatmaster has a good dealer locator. I've sold and installed a lot of different gasifiers over the years, and I'm glad I'm a heatmaster dealer. anything else positive I say about them would be considered salesmanship. 'nuff said.

 

[Chris Hoskin]

we've got several dealers in Western MA. Give me a call at Tarm (ext 113) or PM me. What part of the state are you in - some folks think anything west of the 495 loop is western MA!

 

[usernametaken]

Thanks for all the info and thoughts guys !

Chris, I'm just outside the Springfield area. To me, anything past Springfield is Western MA but I know exactly what you mean. Most people just assume that I live in Boston when I say MA. They are always shocked to hear that there are other towns...LOL

 

[Marshy]

Thanks for all the info and thoughts guys !

Chris, I'm just outside the Springfield area. To me, anything past Springfield is Western MA but I know exactly what you mean. Most people just assume that I live in Boston when I say MA. They are always shocked to hear that there are other towns...LOL

Chris is great to deal with.