Steel, Iron, or Soapstone...and cat vs. non-cat?

[Nells]

I had assumed the statement was pointed at the OP, as I'm one of those too frequently accused of "BK fanboy" status. Yes, I have two Ashford 30.1's, and a Buck T-33, and a RealFyre G4, and a fireplace, and a fire pit. I guess we're pyro's.

I am a BK fanboy, but nearly equally so of Woodstock, Pacific Energy, and even Jotul in various regards. I'm a big fan of doing business with companies having proven track records in designing and producing consistent high-quality product, and standing behind their customers and supporting said products, when things go wrong.

Looking closer at that list, Jotul is weak on support, IMO, but has such a history of well engineered and superbly produced product, that they're hard to ignore. BK and Woodstock are absolutely unmatched on product support and ultra-wide burn time ranges, but each of their product lines satisfy relatively unique cosmetic tastes. Pacific Energy seems to hit a pretty sweet spot on all of the above, offering attractive and solid non-cat performers, and a very low number of complaints on this forum about their products or support.

There are many other good (and bad) companies I haven't even mentioned, the other members of this forum are your resource. The Ashford happened to suit my tastes, offer the highly-convective design I needed to make stoves jammed back inside large fireplaces work, and give the even and slow heat that only a catalytic stove can when running all day in a 190 sq.ft. room. If they weren't inside a masonry box, a Woodstock could've done the same. If I wasn't heating a large house from a small room, a PE Alderlea might be sitting here now. But I'm very happy to be a part of the BK club, it's fun to have people doubt you when you show them 36 hours of active catalytic burn time from a 2.8 cubic foot stove.

My advice to the OP is two-fold:

1. Make a list of your priorities and rank them. Then make a list of your stoves, and rank how well they satisfy each priority. This matrix will narrow your choices.

2. Don't sweat the decision too much. It's not a small decision, I know. But you're not marrying the thing, either. I had five stoves thru this house in 3 or 4 years, and got to a point where I could swap one out in an hour or two. I never lost much on the resale of any of my older stoves, and always timed the swaps for the summer, when it didn't impact my heating schedule. If you find the stove you chose first time out, or (more likely) you find your needs and desires change with h

I had assumed the statement was pointed at the OP, as I'm one of those too frequently accused of "BK fanboy" status. Yes, I have two Ashford 30.1's, and a Buck T-33, and a RealFyre G4, and a fireplace, and a fire pit. I guess we're pyro's.

I am a BK fanboy, but nearly equally so of Woodstock, Pacific Energy, and even Jotul in various regards. I'm a big fan of doing business with companies having proven track records in designing and producing consistent high-quality product, and standing behind their customers and supporting said products, when things go wrong.

Looking closer at that list, Jotul is weak on support, IMO, but has such a history of well engineered and superbly produced product, that they're hard to ignore. BK and Woodstock are absolutely unmatched on product support and ultra-wide burn time ranges, but each of their product lines satisfy relatively unique cosmetic tastes. Pacific Energy seems to hit a pretty sweet spot on all of the above, offering attractive and solid non-cat performers, and a very low number of complaints on this forum about their products or support.

There are many other good (and bad) companies I haven't even mentioned, the other members of this forum are your resource. The Ashford happened to suit my tastes, offer the highly-convective design I needed to make stoves jammed back inside large fireplaces work, and give the even and slow heat that only a catalytic stove can when running all day in a 190 sq.ft. room. If they weren't inside a masonry box, a Woodstock could've done the same. If I wasn't heating a large house from a small room, a PE Alderlea might be sitting here now. But I'm very happy to be a part of the BK club, it's fun to have people doubt you when you show them 36 hours of active catalytic burn time from a 2.8 cubic foot stove.

My advice to the OP is two-fold:

1. Make a list of your priorities and rank them. Then make a list of your stoves, and rank how well they satisfy each priority. This matrix will narrow your choices.

2. Don't sweat the decision too much. It's not a small decision, I know. But you're not marrying the thing, either. I had five stoves thru this house in 3 or 4 years, and got to a point where I could swap one out in an hour or two. I never lost much on the resale of any of my older stoves, and always timed the swaps for the summer, when it didn't impact my heating schedule. If you find the stove you chose first time out, or (more likely) you find your needs and desires change with time, swap it out!

That's great advice! I've been trying to do just this and the looks of the stove are important to the wife, and I like seeing a flame through the glass. The two on our short list are the Alderlea T6 and the BK Ashford 30, but if they heat relatively similarly and go through about the same amount of wood each season then at this point I'm strongly leaning towards getting the T6. But if I get that and it doesn't suit my tastes (or the wife's), then I'll sell it and go with the Ashford!

 

[Ashful]

Either is a great choice. One thing worth pointing out, since there's so much discussion of the "black box" behavior of BK's on this forum, is that they only go black when you turn them way down, like below the range where a T6 could ever even run. When run at similar burn rates, both stoves will have similar flame show off the wood. The T6 can have additional secondary flame show up top, for portions of the burn, which some enjoy. But don't be under the impression you have to run any BK black. It's an option, not a mandate.

 

[bholler]

Either is a great choice. One thing worth pointing out, since there's so much discussion of the "black box" behavior of BK's on this forum, is that they only go black when you turn them way down, like below the range where a T6 could ever even run. When run at similar burn rates, both stoves will have similar flame show off the wood. The T6 can have additional secondary flame show up top, for portions of the burn, which some enjoy. But don't be under the impression you have to run any BK black. It's an option, not a mandate.

This is very true. But if you are always running the bk at that level the benifits of the bk aren't going to be used very well. So why pay for cats in that case?

 

[stoveliker]

The other benefit of a BK, often forgotten here, is the better stability of heat output due to the thermostat.

 

[bholler]

The other benefit of a BK, often forgotten here, is the better stability of heat output due to the thermostat.

That is very true. But personally I don't see that difference to be enough to justify the cost of cats. But some people absolutely will so it's a matter of preference

 

[stoveliker]

The bottom line is that you need to think of the range of outputs that the stoves you're looking at can provide, and your (seasonal) burning wishes.

Larger stoves can provide more heat than smaller stoves, but have a harder time providing low heat when it's not that cold out.
The BK has extended the output range to lower values than it would otherwise be with a firebox of near 3 cu ft.

I do think the T6 can go a bit higher in output than the Ashford (41 vs 36 thousand BTU, I think, if these numbers were obtained using similar tests). The thermostat in the Ashford limits the max a bit - that's the cost of the safety that it provides (in addition to the stable output): it's harder to overfire this stove.

The Ashford will go lower than the bottom of the T6. Of course you can make a small fire in a big stove to decrease output - at the cost of having to do that every 6 hrs or so (because small fire). The Ashford can go down to the output that is the same as that of three and a half 1.5 kW plug in electric heaters (!). And it does so for 30 hrs on one load (depending on what wood, how tightly packed in the firebox, etc.). This is no marketing gimmick. I've gone 36-37 hours on a load of red oak before the combustor dropped out of the active range and the output was too low to be useful. Of course this is only useful in shoulder seasons, as most of the winter (here, near the coast) I'm running 12-16 hr reloading.

Montana can be cold, and if you have a good shoulder season heating option, so you don't need the lower output, the BK looses a lot of the advantages.

The good news is that you can't really choose wrong on quality between these two.

 

[Ashful]

This is very true. But if you are always running the bk at that level the benifits of the bk aren't going to be used very well. So why pay for cats in that case?

Good point. I can only speak for my case, in which I run one stove at a range easily achievable by a T6 in the dead of winter, but then take advantage of the BK low-burn ability in fall and spring. I also didn’t pay more for my BKs, than I would have for a T6 at the time, but I know I got an unusually good deal by shopping around and buying two on the same order. YMMV.

But if going non-cat for budget, there are many good options less costly than the T6 we were discussing, which shouldn’t be ignored. Not as pretty, perhaps not as well engineered, but many heat their homes just fine for far less than these two top-dollar brands.

Bottom line, every stove is a compromise, none is perfect. Pick your compromises as best you can, and don’t resist changing it later, if your priorities or assumptions change!

 

[begreen]

Good advice Ashful. There are a lot of good choices. If the stove hearth is generous then swapping for a different stove is often not that big a deal. We went through 3 stoves in 4 yrs. due to a change of stove location and remodeling, before settling on our stove.

but then take advantage of the BK low-burn ability in fall and spring.

As are we with the T6. 13+ hr burns are keeping things comfy without overheating. It's not so much the stove as it is about how one runs it.

 

[Wildflush]

Couldn’t the OP go with a PE summit? Montana gets cold and the Summit will heat up quickly. Can easily heat over 2k sq ft. Large fire box for long burn times and less money than the T6 and BK. Also OP wants ease of use for his wife and kids. Also nice glass for viewing. The Summit checks all boxes.

 

[begreen]

Couldn’t the OP go with a PE summit? Montana gets cold and the Summit will heat up quickly. Can easily heat over 2k sq ft. Large fire box for long burn times and less money than the T6 and BK. Also OP wants ease of use for his wife and kids. Also nice glass for viewing. The Summit checks all boxes.

Both the T6 and the Summit have the same firebox. The difference is in the cabinet encasing the steel stove body. The Summit has a porcelain steel jacket and the T6 has a full cast iron jacket. Both heat similarly with the Summit being a bit quicker to release heat and the Alderlea having a bit more heat retention due to the mass of the cast iron.
Member Jimbob has been heating with a Summit up in northern Canada since 2007.

 

[Wildflush]

Both the T6 and the Summit have the same firebox. The difference is in the cabinet encasing the steel stove body. The Summit has a porcelain steel jacket and the T6 has a full cast iron jacket. Both heat similarly with the Summit being a bit quicker to release heat and the Alderlea having a bit more heat retention due to the mass of the cast iron.
Member Jimbob has been heating with a Summit up in northern Canada since 2007.

Correct I knew the difference. Cast iron retains heat well just like my old Griswold skillets. Virgin steel back in those days.

Both are really nice stoves with the steel versions less money. Do you know offhand the difference in price? I know if I was in northern Canada I’d have either a BK, T6 or Summit 👍🏻

 

[begreen]

The difference in price a year or so ago used to be about $200-300, but the stove price market went nuts last season, so it's better to ask around and see what the local dealers are charging. My guess is around $2900 for the Summit and $3400 for the T6, but it could be higher on the east coast.

 

[VirginiaIron]

I'm new to the forum and there's a tremendous amount of great information here, but I am hoping for some help in narrowing down what seem to be some viable options. Our house is in the foothills of the Rockies at about 3,500 ft elevation, and we have an old stove we wan to replace (it came with the house so I'm not sure what brand it is). The stove is on the bottom floor, but the house has a good design that allows heat to rise to the floor above. The area we're looking to heat is about 2,000 sq ft, and the chimney is just about 30 feet total from the stove to the top outlet. The wood we burn is a mix of fir, larch, and birch, all seasoned for more than two years. In the coldest months (late October - March), we run the stove non-stop. With that said, I'm looking for a stove that's on the larger side, and some that I think might fit the bill are the Woodstock Progress Hybrid, Pacific Energy Alderlea T6, Hearthstone Mansfield or Manchester. I've had cast iron and steel stoves, but never a soapstone stove. A longer burn time and relatively easy operation is important so my wife and kids can manage it well as I'm often gone for extended periods for work. And none of the stoves I've owned have had catalysts (I did have an insert with a catalyst, but it was quite old and not particularly impressive). Any recommendations or advice would be very much welcomed anppreciated!

Hi, and welcome to the forum. I am not a fan of catalyst, but many here swear by them and get great burn times. I am a fan if what runs good for your needs at a fair price. We love the appearance of the large equinox soapstone, but the last I checked the heat transference is low through the soapstone. That said, we believe it's perfect for all day feeding if someone is home. We have someone home at all times but decided against it due to the price and the liner mods required. We had an early (92?) Quadra fire steel unit in Keystone CO, 8900 ft. that replaced a name brand with 30 foot pipe, and dropped our wood consumption down and creosote from over 5 gallons to several quarts, and no catalyst. Currently, we have a cheapy steel clean burner that holds great temperature close to 14 hours, haven't checked the time recently. We find that feeding the steel unit with one or two splits after bringing it up to temperature gets the most heat transfer for the fuel used. It's been several years now and the stove has paid for itself in the first few months of use.

 

[Wildflush]

The difference in price a year or so ago used to be about $200-300, but the stove price market went nuts last season, so it's better to ask around and see what the local dealers are charging. My guess is around $2900 for the Summit and $3400 for the T6, but it could be higher on the east coast.

Yup,I’m seeing just over $4K now for the T6.

 

[EbS-P]

That is very true. But personally I don't see that difference to be enough to justify the cost of cats. But some people absolutely will so it's a matter of preference

^^^^this^^^^

Put what you save on cats into a heatpump. My life isn’t predictable enough to run a BK to take advantage of what it offers. My wood is inconsistent, weather even more so. But I still want want.

 

[Nells]

The bottom line is that you need to think of the range of outputs that the stoves you're looking at can provide, and your (seasonal) burning wishes.

Larger stoves can provide more heat than smaller stoves, but have a harder time providing low heat when it's not that cold out.
The BK has extended the output range to lower values than it would otherwise be with a firebox of near 3 cu ft.

I do think the T6 can go a bit higher in output than the Ashford (41 vs 36 thousand BTU, I think, if these numbers were obtained using similar tests). The thermostat in the Ashford limits the max a bit - that's the cost of the safety that it provides (in addition to the stable output): it's harder to overfire this stove.

The Ashford will go lower than the bottom of the T6. Of course you can make a small fire in a big stove to decrease output - at the cost of having to do that every 6 hrs or so (because small fire). The Ashford can go down to the output that is the same as that of three and a half 1.5 kW plug in electric heaters (!). And it does so for 30 hrs on one load (depending on what wood, how tightly packed in the firebox, etc.). This is no marketing gimmick. I've gone 36-37 hours on a load of red oak before the combustor dropped out of the active range and the output was too low to be useful. Of course this is only useful in shoulder seasons, as most of the winter (here, near the coast) I'm running 12-16 hr reloading.

Montana can be cold, and if you have a good shoulder season heating option, so you don't need the lower output, the BK looses a lot of the advantages.

The good news is that you can't really choose wrong on quality between these two.

This is great advice. I didn't realize the BK would be harder to overfire, but your comment about shoulder season is also a primary consideration. Winter (and spring and fall) is relatively solid in terms of cold so a low burn doesn't seem as relevant as we also have a good fireplace insert on the main floor. And central heat if needed, but we do love the heat from a wood fire. Honestly at this point I think your last sentence is spot on... I could probably flip a coin and be just as happy with either the T6 or the Ashford. And I think the only way to decide is to see both of them and get a feel for which one appeals more. But as for ease of use (thinking about my wife lighting and maintaining a warm fire when I'm gone), which one is more user friendly?

 

[Nells]

Either is a great choice. One thing worth pointing out, since there's so much discussion of the "black box" behavior of BK's on this forum, is that they only go black when you turn them way down, like below the range where a T6 could ever even run. When run at similar burn rates, both stoves will have similar flame show off the wood. The T6 can have additional secondary flame show up top, for portions of the burn, which some enjoy. But don't be under the impression you have to run any BK black. It's an option, not a mandate.

This is also good to know... I agree with the consistent talk about the BK black mode, and was wondering about whether or not the Ashsford would make flames, or just smolder and make the glass go black 😅

 

[stoveliker]

In my opinion the ease of use is very similar. Start a fire and dial down at the right time.

The only difference is that one can do things wrong with a cat. But it's simple; literally watch the gauge, when it says active,.turn that handle, wait a bit and dial the thermostat down in steps to where you want it for heat output.

The T6 is similar: start the fire, let it get going, and dial down in steps, based on how the fire looks (and preferably a flue probe thermometer). Ensure it doesn't take off on you with very dry wood.

I think if you can read and operate your microwave, you're about three levels up from operating a BK and a PE.

Noncat users often think a cat stove is more complex, but it's in essence the same steps in the initialization of a burn cycle.

Then for a BK the thermostat takes over, and the PE users also say they can have long even fires (see begreen). It'll be slightly less even than the BK, IMHO, but I don't hear unhappy PE users saying they have to dial the air often to keep the stove doing what they want it to do.

So it'll be a wash. If you think you'd need the higher end of the T6 in winter, then the BK would need to be pushed. That's not desirable; you want to operate most machines away from the limits of their performance. Or you go with the BK King, but that is not your aesthetics and it would.make swapping out not easy as it needs a 8" flue.

If your weather"flips" from solid cold to "no heat needed" that's another advantage taken away from the BK.

See if you can visit a showroom and see (and feel) both, door operation, bypass, air etc.

 

[Ashful]

My life isn’t predictable enough to run a BK to take advantage of what it offers. My wood is inconsistent, weather even more so. But I still want want.

We all have different situations. I've been running mine all year on mostly red oak, that's been dried under a roof for 4 summers. I load it when the house gets cold, and short-load it when I know I'm going to want an evening reload. I used to just load every 12 hours on the clock, and dialed my output to hit 12 hour repeatable active cat cycles.

It is worth pointing out that to push the envelope on very long burn times, you will need good dry wood. If you can't provide that, then you'd best stick to burn rates above 0.25 cubic feet per hour. As bholler already noted, there are cheaper ways to hit those numbers, than a catalytic stove.

But if you ever find a need or desire for achieving 0.1 cubic feet per hour burn rates, or even less, the only way to safely and reliably do this is with a catalytic stove. If your home is set up such that this amount of heat can work for you in cold weather, then the BK may be ideal. However, if your heat loss is such that you only need such low burn rates when it's relatively warm out, then a heat pump may be a preferable option for some.

Somewhere earlier this year, I posted some burn times around 33 or 36 hours from a 2.8 cubic foot BK Ashford 30, yielding a burn rate somewhere around 0.08 cubic feet per hour. I have enough solar gain in that part of the house that this very low amount of heat can be too much during daytime, but too little overnight. One could argue I'd do just as well with a non-cat, loading a full load overnight and a short load for daytime, and they'd probably be right. Instead, I do one load per day, which is more convenient when I'm loading a second stove 2x per day, and re-adjust the thermostat to a lower setting in the morning, versus where I ran it overnight.

 

[Ashful]

Honestly at this point I think your last sentence is spot on... I could probably flip a coin and be just as happy with either the T6 or the Ashford.

Yes, I'd agree. If I ever had to replace the Ashfords with non-cats, the T6 would almost certainly be my first choice.

This is also good to know... I agree with the consistent talk about the BK black mode, and was wondering about whether or not the Ashsford would make flames, or just smolder and make the glass go black 😅

The glass on the Ashfords doesn't get so bad, even on low burns. It doesn't stay crystal clear, but I suspect all the past stories of ugly crusty glass is mostly directed at the BK Princess and King models, both of which pre-date the "BK20" and "BK30" boxes. I really think that when designing these newer models, BK took note of the criticism they received for dirty glass on their earlier models, and designed a more aggressive air wash system for the glass. That said, if you want perfectly clear glass, don't burn low. And if you don't ever burn low... T6 may win.

The good news is that a half hour running on a high setting will self-clean the glass of about 95% of anything that collected on it, during prior low burns. Not 100%, but good enough that you don't really notice the black remaining in the corners, without looking for it.

 

[BKVP]

Availability might be an issue if the models you are looking at qualify for the 30% federal tax credit. (You also have to be eligible to use the credit (see your tax advisor)). Of course the winter heating season is beginning to coming to an end in many places. You will find qualifying units easier to obtain over the next 3-4 months. Once the season kicks off for 2024, availability could become an issue.

All good comments in this thread. If you live near Missoula, the Axmen carrier many brands to review.

BKVP

 

[StoveInNH]

You also have to be eligible to use the credit

I did some some reading and can't find any disqualifiers. Do you know of any?

 

[BKVP]

Well, some folks are low income and won't benefit. Others live on SS and the credit may not help/apply. May be a few others...

 

[begreen]

But as for ease of use (thinking about my wife lighting and maintaining a warm fire when I'm gone), which one is more user friendly?

For ease of use and maintenance the PE. For shoulder season burning, the BK. Both are good stoves, just with different design strengths.

 

[BKVP]

On the maintenance side, I operate a King 40. Prior to that I have had 2 other King models, 1 pellet stove and 1 secondary combustion stove.

The King has a 9" deep belly AND in 2022 I burned softwood or NIELS. I shy away from hardwoods first because they take longer to get below 20% m.c. and because of the propensity to have much more coals.

My maintenance and this varies based on depth of firebox, is as follows.

1.) I empty the firebox of ashes after burning a cord of fuel. (Softwoods)
2.) I used a can of compressed air and blow out fly ash accumulation from the combustor cells once a year ( end of season)
3.) I replace my combustor after a period of 8 years.
4.) I never even try to clean the glass because I run on low 65% of the time. If I run on high it will remove buildup, but it just comes back on low. This is due to the firebox being 9" deep.
5.) I inspect chimney every year and due to proper operation and dry fuel, clean every 2 years.

As for operation:

1.) I build a kindling fire near mid October each year.
2.) I rake some hot coals to right rear corner and shovel out ashes each month.
3.) After a cleaning, with bypass still open, I toss small pieces onto hot coals and wait 10-15 minutes for "active" reading.

I repeat this process 4-5 each winter. As opposed to the first secondary wood stove, I have one additional function, opening and closing a bypass during start up and refueling.

NOTE: Although not common at this time, some secondary combustion stoves did/do have bypass requirements.