Stove at High Elevation + Softwood Questions

[BobTWB]

I'm planning on putting a wood burning stove in a mountain cabin at about 8800 feet elevation. Available local fuel is softwood, mostly lodgepole pine with some aspen. I remember seeing winter temperatures there as low as -20 degrees in the past. The cabin has electric baseboard heaters, but I'd like to heat with the stove as much as possible.

Insulation will be good. The cabin is 1500 sq. ft, but the bedrooms have cathedral ceilings so the cabin will have a volume equivalent to about 2000 square feet with 8 foot ceilings. I'm thinking of getting a Jotul Oslo.

Does elevation change the recommended stove size? How about the type of wood used?

I searched the forums, but couldn't find the answer to these questions. Thanks for any help.

 

[littlesmokey]

Welcome, from a fellow Land of Zion'r. I think the fuel shouldn't be an issue. LPPine is a great fuel. Remember to season well, cut now for next year and the year after. Try to stay away from the Quakies, they have odor issues and don't offer as much BTu.

I can't speak to the stove. I know that Jotul has some specific recommendations regarding high altitude use. There are a couple of folk on the forum who will be in a very good position to advise you. I think they are about stack diameter and height, plus some other modifications.

Good luck, sounds like you're up the SoapStone or Chalk Creek, right?

 

[begreen]

Should be ok. PM mountainstoveguy about this. He sold Jotuls in Boulder and has done a lot of high altitude burning.

 

[Jags]

I agree with Begreen on contacting MSG. He would be an excellent source for specific info.

As far as drafting goes, I would think that heat differential would be more important than the density of the air. The heat alters density for you. I'm just taking a s.w.a.g here.

 

[BobTWB]

Welcome, from a fellow Land of Zion'r. I think the fuel shouldn't be an issue. LPPine is a great fuel. Remember to season well, cut now for next year and the year after. Try to stay away from the Quakies, they have odor issues and don't offer as much BTu.

I can't speak to the stove. I know that Jotul has some specific recommendations regarding high altitude use. There are a couple of folk on the forum who will be in a very good position to advise you. I think they are about stack diameter and height, plus some other modifications.

Good luck, sounds like you're up the SoapStone or Chalk Creek, right?

Christmas Meadows / Stillwater fork of the Bear River. We're "blessed" with lots of beetle killed wood right now.

I have a couple of cords of rounds in 16 inch lengths, but I'd better get started splitting my cut wood and cutting some longer logs.

 

[Jags]

If you are just now processing wood for THIS years fuel, you will be hugely disappointed. Its gonna burn like a pile of wet dog poo.

 

[BobTWB]

If you are just now processing wood for THIS years fuel, you will be hugely disappointed. Its gonna burn like a pile of wet dog poo.

No stove until spring, the cabin's currently being renovated.

The rounds I have now range from 2 years to 10 plus years old, so even unsplit, I hope the oldest stuff is going to be seasoned enough. I also have some trees felled 2 years ago cut into 5-6 foot lengths to work with.

Are you all judging seasoning based on performance in your stoves or are you using a moisture meter of some kind?

 

[d.n.f.]

You should really get a moisture meter. I bought one last year and was quite surprised to see some of my 'aged' fir and pine was not as dry as it looked.
If you can split it now. The dry winter will suck a lot of moisture out of the wood. Increase surface area, cover the top of the pile to keep the snow off (or not depending on who you talk to).

I have been at back country cabins skiing at high elevations and they burn green wood all the time at those elevations. No problem keeping a poorly insulated cabin warm (some are quite large greater than 1000 sq ft). Would be even warmer if they burnt dry wood.

 

[Jags]

If you are just now processing wood for THIS years fuel, you will be hugely disappointed. Its gonna burn like a pile of wet dog poo.

No stove until spring, the cabin's currently being renovated.

The rounds I have now range from 2 years to 10 plus years old, so even unsplit, I hope the oldest stuff is going to be seasoned enough. I also have some trees felled 2 years ago cut into 5-6 foot lengths to work with.

Are you all judging seasoning based on performance in your stoves or are you using a moisture meter of some kind?

Yes I have a moisture meter, yes I judge seasoning based on performance.
And NO, wood does not season well in the round. I'm not picking on ya or nothin'. Its just the truth.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

Hey Bob I can't comment on the stove, but my staple fuel is pine beetle kill Lodgepole pine. I like it because most of the the stuff I get is already seasoned and dry enough to burn right away, or at least the same year, which means I don't have to stockpile huge quantities and wait until my kids graduate before it's dry enough to burn. Also I have learned it's one of the better pines to burn, with only the rare Pynion pine being higher in BTUs. You won't find Lodgepole pine on any of the BTU charts though, probably because the Easterners who publish those charts are a little embarrassed that any pine would rank so closely to their precious oak.
Of course not all the pine beetle kill trees will be seasoned properly, you'll want to look for trees that are dead standing and have lost most of their needles. d.n.f.'s advice is good, get yourself a moisture meter and learn how to use it, it will help you selecting which wood to burn now and which to wait a bit.
Having that moisture meter helped me to realize that standing dead trees will, as a rule, be dryer than ones that have fallen over. I think it has to do with the fact that they catch less rain and standing up like that, and they are exposed to the air and sun more which facilitates drying. However the standing dry trees will often show higher moisture readings in the first few rounds I cut off the stump end, but by the time I cut up 5 or 6ft the moisture level will often drop down below 20% or more. 20% being the level you want to be blow to consider the wood dry enough to burn properly.
For the stuff that isn't quite seasoned, if I split it up it dries within a couple months, even in the winter, as long as it's not exposed to the rain and snow.
Of course if you won't be burning till next year, you'll have lots of time to stockpile.
Welcome to the forum.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I'm planning on putting a wood burning stove in a mountain cabin at about 8800 feet elevation. Available local fuel is softwood, mostly lodgepole pine with some aspen. I remember seeing winter temperatures there as low as -20 degrees in the past. The cabin has electric baseboard heaters, but I'd like to heat with the stove as much as possible.

Insulation will be good. The cabin is 1500 sq. ft, but the bedrooms have cathedral ceilings so the cabin will have a volume equivalent to about 2000 square feet with 8 foot ceilings. I'm thinking of getting a Jotul Oslo.

Does elevation change the recommended stove size? How about the type of wood used?

I searched the forums, but couldn't find the answer to these questions. Thanks for any help.

The oslo would be perfect for your application. Good burn times, its not draft sensitive, and it can put the heat out for a long time. Pines at that altitude have similar properties to harder woods at sea level. High elevation pines are dense and full of btus. If you want the best fuel , try to find some doug fir or blue spruce. I would plan on a 16' chimney at that elevation.

 

[snowtime]

We are at 3500' but are considerably north of you. Most of our forest is spruce, balsam with maybe 10% pine. I go after the lodge pole pine for its small size and burn qualities. Beetle killed pine is good to burn 2 year after turning red. Also the beetles are all gone so you will not bring any bugs home. I noticed someone commented about fallen trees vs standing trees. If a tree does not hang up and is laying on the ground for more than 2 years it is not considered a forest fire problem around here. Our area is wet in summer and the trees just soak up the water. I am sure in a dry climate it would be different.

I forgot to add that we see -50 up here so your situation is very doable.

 

[SteveKG]

We're at 8500 and burn lodgepole, ponderosa, and occasionally blue spruce. Right now, and for the foreseeable future, it's almost all beetle kill.

Anyhow, you do not need to size a stove differently due to elevation. The main factors are size of house, insulation, and outside temp's just like anywhere else.

We don't have any other wood available except the aspen now and then. We heat only with wood, you'll have zero trouble. It is really dry here [Colorado] year around, and for years I just stacked my wood outdoors and sometimes had to pull off the upper layers to get to dry stuff if it's snowed. I never had a problem. Then, I finally built a 3-cord wood shed with open sides and a roof. Now I don't even have to set aside the wet stuff.

Don't worry about the altitude.

 

[BobTWB]

Thanks, everyone. This forum is very helpful. I'm sure I'll waste, er, spend lots of time reading here.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

We're at 8500 and burn lodgepole, ponderosa, and occasionally blue spruce. Right now, and for the foreseeable future, it's almost all beetle kill.

Anyhow, you do not need to size a stove differently due to elevation. The main factors are size of house, insulation, and outside temp's just like anywhere else.

We don't have any other wood available except the aspen now and then. We heat only with wood, you'll have zero trouble. It is really dry here [Colorado] year around, and for years I just stacked my wood outdoors and sometimes had to pull off the upper layers to get to dry stuff if it's snowed. I never had a problem. Then, I finally built a 3-cord wood shed with open sides and a roof. Now I don't even have to set aside the wet stuff.

Don't worry about the altitude.

Great points about the local woods, but i do disagree about the elevation and sizing stoves differently. The stove will have more continuous use and a longer season then a stove sold at lower elevations. As you know, there is only one month that we are guaranteed snow free, August. People that live in colder climates tend to want longer burn times, and houses loose heat faster in the windy conditions and super cold temps that high altitudes bless us with all year. You also need taller chimneys that are well insulated, preferably in the building envelope. You also have to up size them based on fuel sources. lodgepole and ponderosa do not have the same density as spruces and firs, so you cant fit as much wood into a stove like you can at lower elevations that get to use hardwoods.

 

[SteveKG]

MountainStoveGuy, I suppose you are correct. I wasn't thinking in terms of how long someone would use the stove and etc. due to altitude, just the basic operation and efficiency of it. I can't speak with authority to the chimney height, as we have a half story upstairs and I made our pipe tall enough to get well above that roof. Hadn't thought about it, really.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I agree, that the operation and efficiency does not change, its all the other odd ball factors of mountain living that go into it

 

[littlesmokey]

Man, someone should consolidate this into a paper about burning at altitude. That in part was what brought me here originally. Bob's lucky because the area he is in is full of standing dead for a number of years. If you are not going to use the stove until Spring, cut, split and stack now. You will have an easy time in a month with the ground freeze for day long wood trips.

MSG, are Jotul's more sensitive to altitude than other stoves? I seem to remember somewhere they were set to us a 5" flue and a taller stack, right?

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Man, someone should consolidate this into a paper about burning at altitude. That in part was what brought me here originally. Bob's lucky because the area he is in is full of standing dead for a number of years. If you are not going to use the stove until Spring, cut, split and stack now. You will have an easy time in a month with the ground freeze for day long wood trips.

MSG, are Jotul's more sensitive to altitude than other stoves? I seem to remember somewhere they were set to us a 5" flue and a taller stack, right?

Some of the models are more draft sensitive then others, the castine and F100 need a good tall, properly sized, strait chimney. The F100 is only listed for a 6" even though the collar is set up ~5" (metric) from Europe.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

lodgepole and ponderosa do not have the same density as spruces and firs.

Not sure what variteies of those trees you have down there MSG, but that's far from the case here.
The local spruce around here sits way down at the bottom of the list, next to Poplar and Aspen, then Poderosa, and on up to Lodgepole pine and Douglas Fir being nearly equal in BTU content. Of course any of these pines or firs become denser as they get older and larger and have to support their own weight. If you are cutting up little lodgepole trees that are only 10" diameter or less at the base it might explain why you rate them so low, or perhaps you have a different variety than we have up here.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Lodgepole does seem better then the spruces, it might be, like you said do to the size. Most of the lodgepole's we have are small in my local area, the blue spruces are big. The fir's still top the list.

Douglas Fir 26.5 5050 3075
Western Juniper 26.4 5410 3050
Western Hemlock 24.4 5730 2830
Port Orford Cedar 23.4 4370 2700
Lodgepole Pine 22.3 4270 2580
Ponderosa Pine 21.7 4270 2520
Jeffery Pine 21.7 4270 2520
Sitka Spruce 21.7 4100 2520
Red Fir 20.6 4040 2400
Incense Cedar 20.1 3880 2350
Coast Redwood 20.1 4040 2330
White Fir 21.1 3190 2400
Grand Fir 20.1 3880 2330
Sugar Pine 19.6 3820 2270
Aspen 14.7 2295

 

[Bigg_Redd]

I'm planning on putting a wood burning stove in a mountain cabin at about 8800 feet elevation. Available local fuel is softwood, mostly lodgepole pine with some aspen. I remember seeing winter temperatures there as low as -20 degrees in the past. The cabin has electric baseboard heaters, but I'd like to heat with the stove as much as possible.

Insulation will be good. The cabin is 1500 sq. ft, but the bedrooms have cathedral ceilings so the cabin will have a volume equivalent to about 2000 square feet with 8 foot ceilings. I'm thinking of getting a Jotul Oslo.

Does elevation change the recommended stove size? How about the type of wood used?

I searched the forums, but couldn't find the answer to these questions. Thanks for any help.

1) About type of wood used: no, elevation makes no difference. Cut and burn what is close and convenient.

2) An Oslo will heat a well insulated 1500-2000 sq ft space just fine, but you should go with a Pacific Energy Summit Classic instead.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I'm planning on putting a wood burning stove in a mountain cabin at about 8800 feet elevation. Available local fuel is softwood, mostly lodgepole pine with some aspen. I remember seeing winter temperatures there as low as -20 degrees in the past. The cabin has electric baseboard heaters, but I'd like to heat with the stove as much as possible.

Insulation will be good. The cabin is 1500 sq. ft, but the bedrooms have cathedral ceilings so the cabin will have a volume equivalent to about 2000 square feet with 8 foot ceilings. I'm thinking of getting a Jotul Oslo.

Does elevation change the recommended stove size? How about the type of wood used?

I searched the forums, but couldn't find the answer to these questions. Thanks for any help.

1) About type of wood used: no, elevation makes no difference. Cut and burn what is close and convenient.

2) An Oslo will heat a well insulated 1500-2000 sq ft space just fine, but you should go with a Pacific Energy Summit Classic instead.

Can you offer some reasons for your recommendation? What are you using? Good post, but follow it up with some data.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

You should really get a moisture meter. I bought one last year and was quite surprised to see some of my 'aged' fir and pine was not as dry as it looked.
If you can split it now. The dry winter will suck a lot of moisture out of the wood. Increase surface area, cover the top of the pile to keep the snow off (or not depending on who you talk to).

I have been at back country cabins skiing at high elevations and they burn green wood all the time at those elevations. No problem keeping a poorly insulated cabin warm (some are quite large greater than 1000 sq ft). Would be even warmer if they burnt dry wood.

But we live in a marine climate with 50%-70% humidity. He lives at 8800 ft in pop-corn-fart-dry Utah. I'm guessing his 2-10 year old unsplit wood is drier than anything in our woodsheds.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

I'm planning on putting a wood burning stove in a mountain cabin at about 8800 feet elevation. Available local fuel is softwood, mostly lodgepole pine with some aspen. I remember seeing winter temperatures there as low as -20 degrees in the past. The cabin has electric baseboard heaters, but I'd like to heat with the stove as much as possible.

Insulation will be good. The cabin is 1500 sq. ft, but the bedrooms have cathedral ceilings so the cabin will have a volume equivalent to about 2000 square feet with 8 foot ceilings. I'm thinking of getting a Jotul Oslo.

Does elevation change the recommended stove size? How about the type of wood used?

I searched the forums, but couldn't find the answer to these questions. Thanks for any help.

1) About type of wood used: no, elevation makes no difference. Cut and burn what is close and convenient.

2) An Oslo will heat a well insulated 1500-2000 sq ft space just fine, but you should go with a Pacific Energy Summit Classic instead.

Can you offer some reasons for your recommendation? What are you using? Good post, but follow it up with some data.

Regarding fuel - Trucking wood over great distances doesn't make sense when adequate supplies can be had locally. And this is regardless of the BTU value of the wood. So, IMO, elevation makes no difference.

Regarding the stove - You can get a very attractive PE Summit with enamel finish and all the other pretties on is for less than a flat black Oslo, and the PE is a better heater.