Summit Insert burning too fast and dropping temps quick

[atom631]

I had started this thread a few days ago and this is sort of a continuation. Almost all questions were answered, I followed everyones advice. My wood is not incredibly dry, but not terrible. I adjusted the latch which solved my brown stains (definitely air leak there). I apologize if this is against the TOS of the site, but I thought this was deserved of its own thread. Below is some visuals of what I am experiencing with my new Summit Insert.

This is my biggest issue and I am unable to determine what the problem is.

To start with, last night I loaded about 80% full at 11pm (northeast, temps were in the upper 20s). I then when through the chokedown process, etc. until it appeared to have a nice secondary burn. I got up at 7am and I had a hot bed of coals. the temp on the thermometer was reading around 275.

I then added 4 splits, medium size - about 7-7:15am. I never opened the damper. I left it fully closed. It lit within 2 minutes and developed a nice secondary burn within 10 minutes. Thermometer got up to about 560 degrees.

This video was taken at 8:05 am about an hour later - The damper remained fully closed.. Temp has dropped to around 500. Im not sure, but i feel like its burning way too fast and not just from the secondaries.

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This next video was taken at 8:24 am - Fire is just about out, temp has dropped 80-100 degrees in the span of 20 minutes.

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The picture attached was taken at 8:55 am. Im not sure if you can read it, but the temp is down another 80-100 and right about 300 degrees.

As of 9:22 (no pic) temps are under 300 and reading in the creosote zone on my thermometer. So this is where I am at. in the span of apx. 2hours, I am down to under 300 degrees and could feasibly re-load the stove.

Doesny anyone have any ideas what my issue might be? At this rate, I am going to blow through my wood.
.

 

[atom631]

Also, on a side-note - for those with newer Summit Insert models.... where are you placing your thermometer? As you can see, this newer design doesnt have the gap where the top of the stove meets the surround (where the blower air comes from). Instead, the blower air on my unit comes from under the overhang and blows directly across the glass and almost straight down. I thought this to be a strange design because it makes the door handle very hot and instead of blow out into the room, its hitting my floor in a very turbulent manner.

 

[atom631]

anyone?

 

[Grisu]

Wet wood. When not opening the air during the reload you don't give the wood time to burn off the excess moisture. You have enough coals and high enough temps to get a fire going but the internal moisture is still there and you get plenty of coals that cannot sustain the burn. With the wood you have you need leave the air open more. 4 splits is also not a lot of wood. It is more efficient to fill the firebox completely with every reload. To burn down the coals, rake them forward, place a small split of dry (soft)wood on top and leave the air open some. After about an hour you will have enough space for a full reload.

You have a large stove. If you need to keep it above 300 F all the time you need like 3 full reloads per day, that's 8 to 9 cu ft of wood. You will need a lot of cords for one winter. How well is your home insulated?

I have the Super insert and measure the temp just above the door in the center with an IR thermometer. That spot is 100 F to 50 F lower than the top of the insert.

 

[Hogwildz]

I load 2 full loads a day, approx 12 hours apart. IN the shoulder season it goes longer between loads.
When you say damper, are your referring to the air intake lever?
Split size can be a matter of opinion as tow what is small, medium and large.
You won't have secondaries the entire burn. Not opening the air intake to char the new load is not something I do.

How far into the burn did it take to get to 560? Did it get higher than 560? If not something is wrong, and what I see in the pics, is you still have a good bit of wood in there.
If the temp is dropping that soon, I agree the wood is not as dry as it should be. I would get at least another 4+ hours of burn based on the second photos worth of wood.

Something is not right, but it is not the insert.
How tall is the liner?

The only place to put a thermo is on the face above the door in one corner or the other. I use two, one on each corner.

 

[Dix]

Glad you guys checked in here,

I've been trying to help Atom, but this stuff is beyond my knowledge.

Grisu, if you check the prior thread, firewood was moisture metered, and came in pretty fair for first year.

Hogz, I'm glad you're watching this thread.

Weird stuff going on here

IMHO.

 

[atom631]

yes, air intake lever. i find that if i dont choke it off as quick as possible, a lot of the split is already burned down.

12 hours? when you say 12 hours, how long before it turns to coal? on a full load my wood burns down to coal in around 4 hours. then ill get another few hours of heat out of coal bed (3-5).. but it doesn't stay above 500 degrees once its coal. it usually hangs around 300-325. and keep in mind...it hasnt even been that cold yet.

the highest ive seen it go is 600 and didnt hang there for very long. it hits around 560-600 within 20-25 minutes of loading it up. once i choke it off and kick the blower on it drops to around 500. it stays in that area for as long as there is a visible flame. once that is gone, it goes down to 300-350. does the blower affect the temps?

im not 100% sure how tall the liner is. im gonna say somewhere between 15-20'. i do not have a block off plate. they stuffed roxul where the old damper was and more right by the chimney cap.

the insert is in the great room and my house is a ranch. maybe 40' L x 14' W with catherdral ceiling peaking around 13'. i also have 3 skylights and 2 sliding glass doors. the doors are definitely drafty. not too sure about the skylights. off the great room is my living room and then a hallway leading to my bedroom area. the heat barely reaches the bedrooms. as it is, it wont be enough for me to make the insert my main source of heat for the winter. i will definitely need to kick my boiler on, which really sucks.

 

[atom631]

this where the summit is installed now.

floor plan

 

[Dix]

You get stars for the lay out pics

BUT ... that's a tough lay out to heat the bedrooms.

Your first is the burn times. Second issue is heat to the bedrooms.

I think once you take care of the burn times, the rest is easy

 

[atom631]

I think once you take care of the burn times, the rest is easy

thats my hope. i figured once its consistently burning and burning hot... it will make its way to the bedrooms. i added a 2nd return for my CAC (not on my floor plan) that is on the far wall opposite the insert within the great room. i figure i could always turn on the fan and try circulating the air that way. however, since it really hasnt gotten hot enough to even break 75 in the great room, i havent tried it.

 

[Dix]

A simple floor fan will handle moving the air towards the stove.

*Caveat * the fan will have to be at the right side of the floor plan, pushing the colder air to the great room, creating a convection loop, which will move the warmer air into the right side of the house.

I'm sticking with you

 

[atom631]

i just loaded up for the night. i put a few smaller, lighter pieces on the bottom an about 4 heavier pieces on the top. loaded all N-S. about 60% full (not very cold tonight.) kicked the air intake to start. after about 20-25 minutes it just didnt seem like it was going to get hotter than 575 degrees. most of the smaller stuff on the bottom was 1/2 burned down already. i choked it down about 2/3 for 5 more minutes. temps stayed around 560-575. i then fully choked it off and turned the blower on. temps dropped down to 425 and seem to be holding there. the small stuff is about gone on the bottom. this fire will be fully burned down to a bed of coals by 1am.

 

[Dix]

What kind of firewood are you using?

Pine, oak, cherry?

 

[Hogwildz]

yes, air intake lever. i find that if i dont choke it off as quick as possible, a lot of the split is already burned down.

12 hours? when you say 12 hours, how long before it turns to coal? on a full load my wood burns down to coal in around 4 hours. then ill get another few hours of heat out of coal bed (3-5).. but it doesn't stay above 500 degrees once its coal. it usually hangs around 300-325. and keep in mind...it hasnt even been that cold yet.

the highest ive seen it go is 600 and didnt hang there for very long. it hits around 560-600 within 20-25 minutes of loading it up. once i choke it off and kick the blower on it drops to around 500. it stays in that area for as long as there is a visible flame. once that is gone, it goes down to 300-350. does the blower affect the temps?

im not 100% sure how tall the liner is. im gonna say somewhere between 15-20'. i do not have a block off plate. they stuffed roxul where the old damper was and more right by the chimney cap.

the insert is in the great room and my house is a ranch. maybe 40' L x 14' W with catherdral ceiling peaking around 13'. i also have 3 skylights and 2 sliding glass doors. the doors are definitely drafty. not too sure about the skylights. off the great room is my living room and then a hallway leading to my bedroom area. the heat barely reaches the bedrooms. as it is, it wont be enough for me to make the insert my main source of heat for the winter. i will definitely need to kick my boiler on, which really sucks.

There is no exact science, or timing as each load differs and varies, that said, Typically, you should get at least a couple hours secondary action if good dry wood and temps over 400-450 and higher.
Here is my typical scenario.
I load a full load, usually 3-4 large splits on the bottom, then fill in the top with mediums to almost large, whatever fits. I load it tight. but do try to spread the splits a little so there is a small channel for air to get through, which equated to flames as it gets going.
Usually, In about 15 minutes I am at 300-350(reload at about 200-250, sometimes higher. The stove sometimes will drop 50-100 degrees while new load is firing up.
At 350, depending on how much the load is charred, and what the secondaries are doing, I will either cut it back to 50% air, or sometimes cut it all the way low.
If I cut it to 50%, and the load is not as charred as other times, I'll set my timer for 10 minutes, then when the timer chimes, I cut the air all the way low. Other times when it looks charred well and secondaries going fairly good, I'll cut it to 50 for a minute for two, then all the way low.

After that it does all the work. It will climb to 500-600-700 sometimes 750. At this point it does its own thing. It will cruise at about 700 for an hour or two, then settle in at 650ish for a few hours. The slowly drop. I load at midnight, and at 9:00AM or 10:00AM it is still at anywhere from 300-400. It slowly declines. At about 12 hours it will be 200-250 sometimes a little higher. I scoop the ash from the front, then spread the coals over the entire firebox floor. I have changed my practices over the years, and this is my current method.

After several hours cruising as it's sweet spot, the stove will slowly decline as the fuel source diminishes. That is how these stoves burn.
Realistically, once the secondaries burn off the nasties, your looking at the coaling stage. May be full glowing splits looking like coals, but there is plenty of fuel yet.
These stoves burn from the top down. Yes there will be flames on the bottom at the beginning, but the baffle jets do a major part of burning the load.
I'll bet the skylights are not insulated as well as they should be, if at all. I have two stories with a huge loft and two upper bedrooms, approx 22' of cathedral ceiling with ceiling fan in the stove room, and also have skylights.
I am in the process of air sealing my ceiling as it is T&G with no drywall behind it, and just tar paper based FG insulation behind the T&G, Talk about heat loss. The one thing i have going is an awesome convection loop. And only 1 room is cold. Opposite corner of the house.

With your set up, you prolly have squat for a convection loop, and heating those bedrooms is going to be challenging. Dixie gave the only advice you may see anyone give, a fan blowing the cooler air from the bedroom area, toward the stove room. That great room should be no problem to heat, and would think it would heat you out of there.
The HVAC fan usually doesn't work in circulating the heat, but maybe you will have different results.

That room should be well into the 80s, possibly 90 with a good hot burn going on.

Here are the things we have to look at to figure out what is going on.
These things come to mind:
1. Draft, are you getting good draft from your flue system? Does the stove billow smoke in the room while the door is open? Or does it seem like there is a good draft.
I can actually hear the air being pulled into the stove when I have the air intake open. with 27' of liner, I have a strong draft, and may be why my stove runs hot and needs air all the way low.
2. Wood supply. It appears your wood is dry, but wet wood is the number 1 culprit to poor burning, and inability to achieve upper burn temps.
What species are you burning? What are the true sizes of the splits? Take a few photos of the wood sizes you're burning and post.
What makes no sense it the load burning away prematurely, and not achieving higher temps. Usually if the load burns away quickly, there is a too strong of draft, too much air, or too little splits sizing.
Usually, not achieving high enough temps, is poor draft, wet wood, too little air, or a combo of some or all three of those. And the load burning too quickly is not conducive of this scenario. Usually the opposite, smoldering, low temps, incomplete burn.

I would say there are many that fail to realize a stove is a space heater, and many homes are not set up to achieve complete house heating from a stove. Many of us are fortunate enough to have a type of layout, that we can heat the whole home or majority with the stove. But just because one puts a wood burning stove in, is not a given that it will heat the entire home.
Expectations need to be realistic for the layout of a given home.

The thing that stands out to me, is that room should be hot, and higher than 75, unless you have a serious heat loss issue.
The first thing I would do, is install a proper metal block off plate closing off the damper area of the old fireplace. There can be some serious heat loss and draft issues without one. Which may be a big part, or at least some of your troubles.

where in the NE are you?

 

[Hogwildz]

Are you loading front to back or side to side?

 

[Hogwildz]

Here is my reload I just loaded. I have had it fuller with less air space, but it seems to be a little milder tonight. And I did a little earlier cause I didn't pack it full at noon today.
I won't reload till noonish tomorrow. On milder days I can wait till even later and still have plenty of coals for reload. Box temp is actually 150 at this reload, a little cooler than I like, but I it happens.
Keep in mind, a stove is not like a furnace, you will have temp swings anywhere from 3-5 degrees or more depending on outside temps, wind, tightness of house etc.
These are things we have to live with, its not a set it and forget it thing.

 

[Hogwildz]

Okay since I was lazy and reloaded at 150, you can see after 15 mins, still 150.
Just starting to burn. My fault for loading at low temp. Also loaded with wood pulled off the outside pile this evening, so prolly has some residual moisture in it.
Just set the timer for another 15 mins.
I personally set the oven timer eery reload. The times I don't, sure as shat, I get involved in other things and forget about the stove. Not a good habit to get into, and don't do it very often. Did today though, another reason I didn't get the full 12 hours out of this afternoons load. For me, timer is a must, unless your babysitting right there in the stove room the entire time after reload.

 

[madison]

Are you sure that the air lever is operating properly.
i.e. do you see a change in the fire when the lever is opened and closed? and are you sure that you have the orientation correct - left open, right closed?

 

[atom631]

Im not 100% sure what species I am burning. I know its a mix. Attached is an image of a typical load. Occasionally there are some bigger, thicker pieces...but this is pretty average. Also, the wood looks wet b/c its raining out and just brought it in. Also attached is a pic of the 5 cords I had delivered around July. It was claimed to be seasoned, but you know how that goes.

As for draft - since my wood isnt 100% dry, I will get a little smoke with I open the door if there is a few pieces in there that havent lit yet. Not much at all though. However, if its coals or burning, i get no smoke at all.

I am on Long Island.

I notice that there isnt a huge change with the air lever. Not until I fully choke it does it seem like it makes much of a difference.

 

[atom631]

here is a clearer picture of the wood once i stacked it. its not a pretty stack, i know. im a newbie and i have since cleaned it up and set the tarp up better.

 

[The Cank]

A simple floor fan will handle moving the air towards the stove.

*Caveat * the fan will have to be at the right side of the floor plan, pushing the colder air to the great room, creating a convection loop, which will move the warmer air into the right side of the house.

I'm sticking with you

I've always put the fan at the ends of the room blowing into the colder rooms to draw the heat from fireplace room into colder rooms...Have I been doing it all backwards??

 

[Seanm]

I've always put the fan at the ends of the room blowing into the colder rooms to draw the heat from fireplace room into colder rooms...Have I been doing it all backwards??

Yup! You want to place small fans on the floor in hallways and doorways pushing cold air towards the stove. It doesnt take much. Cold air is easier to move than warm air.

 

[atom631]

so can someone ID what Im burning? Also.... are my splits too small? Compared to Hogwildz load, my splits seem like they are a lot smaller.

 

[Rickb]

It looks wet....... Looks like what mine does in spring when I cut it.

 

[Hogwildz]

Tough for me to tell the species from the photos. Think I see some Maple in there.
Those splits in my opinion, are mostly smalls, and very thin.
By appearance, some of that stuff looks fairly freshly split. But I am going on what I can see.
Are you left with lots of unburnt coals at the end of the burn?
Not so sure on 5 cords, but tough to say given limited view. What is the length x width x height of the stack?

Try digging out 7 or 8 of the largest splits you can find, load the stove full on a nice hot bed of coals and see how that performs.
I have a feeling your issue is both too small of splits and less than dry wood.
4 of those splits will not last very long, but the stove should still reach higher temps with them, just for a shorter period of time.
If it doesn't then I suspect less than dry wood.

Maybe one of our Long Island members can pony up a stove load of good dry wood and see how that performs.
Those splits are way too small for full time heating. That is the stuff they sell to campers around here.
Oh Dixie, any help?