Wanted: Garn style builders

[pulseing]

Hello everyone,

I own a welding/fab shop that I'm looking to move from a commercial space that I rent to a ~8000sqft shop that I built next to my home.

I was initially going to purchase a wood gun or a garn, however, I would like to build one with a lot more storage so it didn't require as often firings.

I'm in the process of designing a ~5000 gallon garn style gasser to heat the shop and my home as well. However, I cannot find a lot of the photos and information that I had found before? Anyway, Just wondering if anyone has contact information for the following members since they haven't been online in quite a while.

allan
Wade
brad068

I would like to collaborate with them to try and get the design and build right the first time, I have PM'D them but as I said, they haven't been online in quite a while. Anyone else who has built a garn style boiler is also welcome to Pm me.

Please Pm me if you have any of their contact infomation

Thanks in advance!

 

[TCaldwell]

Not sure I can offer much, Alan went under the name here of garnification, I believe he converted a 3000gal milk tank and used a tube bundle in the last pass. His uncle went under the name of high e, also building a Garn clone.
For awhile, about 9 years ago we spoke frequently about o2 control, often wondered what happened.

 

[salecker]

How about a different twist...
Build a Garn clone in a size that has been done,no experimenting then.Then add additional storage as required.The additional storage could be used when the temps dictate more BTU's.Shoulder seasons would be more controllable without having to heat the giant Garn when not required.
Just spit-balling to see what sticks.

 

[leon]

Save your money!!, buy a clean insulated surplus railroad tank car from the CPRR or CNRR and sell the trucks and axles back to the auction house.

The railroads are listing many old retired tank cars as surplus for sale units that have reached their life limit and have been retired.

They already have a manway in the top and bottom tappings for pipe connections on them already so.......... the plumbing will be simple enough.

The bigger the tank car is the lower the cost per gallon so keep that in mind and the work for building it has already been done and the more hot water you have the less energy you need to reheat it by the way. If you purchase an insulated surplus tank car you will be able to place it outside next to a small forest eater or a coal stoker from portage and main and be able to heat this water with little effort.


A small firebrick lined outdoor boiler will make lots of hot water for you to store simply by circulating the water.

 

[pulseing]

How about a different twist...
Build a Garn clone in a size that has been done,no experimenting then.Then add additional storage as required.The additional storage could be used when the temps dictate more BTU's.Shoulder seasons would be more controllable without having to heat the giant Garn when not required.
Just spit-balling to see what sticks.

That's defiantly an option, however I would still prefer to speak with as many people who have built them before since this will be my first... Maybe multiple tanks could be a good solution. I just don't want to have to feed it constantly, I would prefer to build as large a firebox/exchanger as possible and have one large burn that would last me a day or 2.

 

[pulseing]

Save your money!!, buy a clean insulated surplus railroad tank car from the CPRR or CNRR and sell the trucks and axles back to the auction house.

The railroads are listing many old retired tank cars as surplus for sale units that have reached their life limit and have been retired.

They already have a manway in the top and bottom tappings for pipe connections on them already so.......... the plumbing will be simple enough.

The bigger the tank car is the lower the cost per gallon so keep that in mind and the work for building it has already been done and the more hot water you have the less energy you need to reheat it by the way. If you purchase an insulated surplus tank car you will be able to place it outside next to a small forest eater or a coal stoker from portage and main and be able to heat this water with little effort.


A small firebrick lined outdoor boiler will make lots of hot water for you to store simply by circulating the water.

I also contemplated this idea, I like the heatmaster units, but again, none of them are really large enough to maintain my heatload. If I went that route with a smaller btu boiler with a large storage tank, I would still have to babysit a boiler until the tank volume got up to temp. That's one thing I really like about the garn style, I can build it to specs that I want.

 

[Fred61]

What are you doing, heating with the doors open? Tighten the buildings up and get a big Garn.

 

[TCaldwell]

Building the boiler is only part of the equation, and probably not the first if you only want to fire once every 2 days. Have you done a heat loss on the buildings, what type emitters, how low will you effectively be able to draw storage to? These need to be answered to determine storage volume. Keep in mind, no matter how well you insulate, the larger the tank the larger the standby losses, might not be a issue if it’s in a space you heating anyway.
The Garn website provides as built dimensions, you will have to source the parts elsewhere. One recommendation would be to use a vfd and 3ph motor, then if your build differs slightly you can adjust the airflow.
If you search not your grandfather’s Garn on this site, and YouTube o2 controlled Garn, it will show some of my Garn changes.

 

[pulseing]

What are you doing, heating with the doors open? Tighten the buildings up and get a big Garn.

I'm assuming your unfamiliar with how a welding/fabrication shops work, all the smoke created by the welding has to be removed from the building, The last thing i want to do is "tighten the buildings up"

I'm hoping to use the boiler to preheat the make-up air for the shop and also heat the water for the wash bay.

Oh and also heat my 2600 sqft home that has a 1200 sqft attached garage.

Also, a 3200 garn would be aprox 60-65k by the time it got here.

 

[maple1]

Also, a 3200 garn would be aprox 60-65k by the time it got here.

Really?

I didn't realize they were that expensive.

Does pressurized vs. unpressurized factor into this? Garn is not. Switzer is - have you checked them out? Unpressurized will need heat exchangers, which might hinder you getting most of the mileage out of storage as you can. Especially if you have emitters that need supply that is on the hotter side of things. I think if I was contemplating this kind of thing, I would get a big capable factory built pressurized boiler and add storage to it via 1000g LP tanks. If the built Garn type thing doesn't work out as you hoped, all your eggs are in that one basket.

 

[leon]

So what your saying is a 20-33 thousand gallon surplus tank car will not work even with a small coal stoker boiler to make heat?

I owned one of Gary Switzers wood and coal hand fed boilers for 33 years before I switched to a keystoker coal stoker.

Gary Switzer and his son inlaw make an excellent hybrid pressurized wood boiler and they also install them. You are still going to have the same problem with heat loss and one pipe steam heat is the only way your going to have a quicker recovery to keep up with the demand you are going to have.


The only way your going to gain anything is to invest in a coal stoker boiler with your scenario.
A coal stoker boiler fed from a bin like the Axeman Anderson S260, EFM DF520 or the AHS S1000
are your only other options with your heating load and the inherent heat loss.


With hot water under pressure or in an open system you have to keep in mind that a single circulator like a B&G NRF 25 will push 33 gallons per minute +- on speed three from storage.
In one hour you will have pushed 1980 gallons of cooler water through a heat exchanger and back to the boiler.

Short of going to a coal fired stoker to make steam you do not have a lot of options and a geothermal well with sand in the well casing will only give you 1 ton of heating and cooling per 100 feet of depth.
If you have a large amount of land you could trench and bury as much poly pipe as you need to let the ground act as your heat exchanger as long as you separate the lateral lines by at least 100 feet in a grid pattern.

Steam running at 1.5 PSIG can be used to feed steam to forced air garage heaters to all your heaters will be your friend in this case as the steam to hot air garage heaters will provide you with lots of heat just as a steam to hot air plenum will do in forced air duct work.

Steam will be your only friend in this case as single US pound of water heated to make steam will expand 1700 times to make heat.

The AHS, EFM, and Axeman Anderson anthracite coal stoker boilers s will be the ONLY ones I would recommend to you to make steam or hot water.


Another option would be the All Canadian Heaters coal stokers designed to make hot water for large hot water installations and they have a quick payback period.
The only issue with these boiler is that you will only be able to burn the western Canadian or Wyoming sub bituminous coal.



www.allcanadianheaters.com

 

[Karl_northwind]

I also contemplated this idea, I like the heatmaster units, but again, none of them are really large enough to maintain my heatload. If I went that route with a smaller btu boiler with a large storage tank, I would still have to babysit a boiler until the tank volume got up to temp. That's one thing I really like about the garn style, I can build it to specs that I want.

Heatmaster does have a Biomass unit that's rated for 500 kbtu (and a 1million too). if you have stuff you can chip or have a source of chips locally.
500kbtu continuously without having to load it every day would do 20,000 SF most places. several different bin sizes and configurations. I can get you budget pricing if you're interested.

nothing wrong with 2 g-400's either and heatmaster will roll big storage tanks too, a G-400 with storage will do a lot. you can put something like 300 lbs of 36" long hardwood in there, which will deliver a lot of heat if you load twice a day. 150,000 btu/h if you can load it twice, plus whatever you benefit you get from as storage.

I'm doing a 1700 gallon buffer tank for the 1mmbtu boiler we're planning right now. Pretty cheap for that size, in whatever dimensions I want, and ports wherever I want, in 409 stainless.

8000 sf plus a house should not be too hard to heat, but of course canada is a big place. what part of Canada?
I can get you budget pricing if you're interested.

 

[surefire]

Also, a 3200 garn would be aprox 60-65k by the time it got here.

60k is about right once you convert the list price to Canadian, and include the shipping into Canada (I was quoted in the neighbourhood of 2k USD, but I'm not sure if that is to my door). The 3200 is 2.4x the price of a 2000.

 

[pulseing]

Heatmaster does have a Biomass unit that's rated for 500 kbtu (and a 1million too). if you have stuff you can chip or have a source of chips locally.
500kbtu continuously without having to load it every day would do 20,000 SF most places. several different bin sizes and configurations. I can get you budget pricing if you're interested.

nothing wrong with 2 g-400's either and heatmaster will roll big storage tanks too, a G-400 with storage will do a lot. you can put something like 300 lbs of 36" long hardwood in there, which will deliver a lot of heat if you load twice a day. 150,000 btu/h if you can load it twice, plus whatever you benefit you get from as storage.

I'm doing a 1700 gallon buffer tank for the 1mmbtu boiler we're planning right now. Pretty cheap for that size, in whatever dimensions I want, and ports wherever I want, in 409 stainless.

8000 sf plus a house should not be too hard to heat, but of course canada is a big place. what part of Canada?
I can get you budget pricing if you're interested.

Pm'd you

 

[pulseing]

Also, a 3200 garn would be aprox 60-65k by the time it got here.

Really?

I didn't realize they were that expensive.

Does pressurized vs. unpressurized factor into this? Garn is not. Switzer is - have you checked them out? Unpressurized will need heat exchangers, which might hinder you getting most of the mileage out of storage as you can. Especially if you have emitters that need supply that is on the hotter side of things. I think if I was contemplating this kind of thing, I would get a big capable factory built pressurized boiler and add storage to it via 1000g LP tanks. If the built Garn type thing doesn't work out as you hoped, all your eggs are in that one basket.

I was considering using a pressurized pellet system for backup, and heat exchangers to heat everything on the pressurized side. My thoughts are that I can build a garn style boiler for substantially less then any pressurized system.

 

[pulseing]

So what your saying is a 20-33 thousand gallon surplus tank car will not work even with a small coal stoker boiler to make heat?

I owned one of Gary Switzers wood and coal hand fed boilers for 33 years before I switched to a keystoker coal stoker.

Gary Switzer and his son inlaw make an excellent hybrid pressurized wood boiler and they also install them. You are still going to have the same problem with heat loss and one pipe steam heat is the only way your going to have a quicker recovery to keep up with the demand you are going to have.


The only way your going to gain anything is to invest in a coal stoker boiler with your scenario.
A coal stoker boiler fed from a bin like the Axeman Anderson S260, EFM DF520 or the AHS S1000
are your only other options with your heating load and the inherent heat loss.


With hot water under pressure or in an open system you have to keep in mind that a single circulator like a B&G NRF 25 will push 33 gallons per minute +- on speed three from storage.
In one hour you will have pushed 1980 gallons of cooler water through a heat exchanger and back to the boiler.

Short of going to a coal fired stoker to make steam you do not have a lot of options and a geothermal well with sand in the well casing will only give you 1 ton of heating and cooling per 100 feet of depth.
If you have a large amount of land you could trench and bury as much poly pipe as you need to let the ground act as your heat exchanger as long as you separate the lateral lines by at least 100 feet in a grid pattern.

Steam running at 1.5 PSIG can be used to feed steam to forced air garage heaters to all your heaters will be your friend in this case as the steam to hot air garage heaters will provide you with lots of heat just as a steam to hot air plenum will do in forced air duct work.

Steam will be your only friend in this case as single US pound of water heated to make steam will expand 1700 times to make heat.

The AHS, EFM, and Axeman Anderson anthracite coal stoker boilers s will be the ONLY ones I would recommend to you to make steam or hot water.


Another option would be the All Canadian Heaters coal stokers designed to make hot water for large hot water installations and they have a quick payback period.
The only issue with these boiler is that you will only be able to burn the western Canadian or Wyoming sub bituminous coal.



www.allcanadianheaters.com

Sorry, there's no readily available coal where im located.. However I can buy firewood for under ~100/bush cord

 

[maple1]

I was considering using a pressurized pellet system for backup, and heat exchangers to heat everything on the pressurized side. My thoughts are that I can build a garn style boiler for substantially less then any pressurized system.

Have you budgeted out a build yet?

I was worried when I started getting into doing my new system about what storage was going to set me back. Then I got directed to a big scrap yard, an hour away from me, by I think someone on here. They had a mountain of used LP tanks. So the storage portion actually turned out to be the least expensive part. Not sure where you're at or your situation, but if you could find some of those, or maybe anhydrous tanks, that could drastically change the cost side of parts of your build. Then maybe the design - if you could use some LP tanks, you could maybe build a smaller boiler. Smaller on the water capacity side that is. Might make it easier to adapt everything to your space. Or not.

I like the modularity of separate boiler & storage. Allows you to add storage, or swap boilers if needed for some reason without disturbing your storage. And everything pressurized makes things simpler at least for my head - takes the HX things out of the picture. At the cost of extra expansion required, of course.

 

[pulseing]

Have you budgeted out a build yet?

I was worried when I started getting into doing my new system about what storage was going to set me back. Then I got directed to a big scrap yard, an hour away from me, by I think someone on here. They had a mountain of used LP tanks. So the storage portion actually turned out to be the least expensive part. Not sure where you're at or your situation, but if you could find some of those, or maybe anhydrous tanks, that could drastically change the cost side of parts of your build. Then maybe the design - if you could use some LP tanks, you could maybe build a smaller boiler. Smaller on the water capacity side that is. Might make it easier to adapt everything to your space. Or not.

I like the modularity of separate boiler & storage. Allows you to add storage, or swap boilers if needed for some reason without disturbing your storage. And everything pressurized makes things simpler at least for my head - takes the HX things out of the picture. At the cost of extra expansion required, of course.

Just wondering, With infloor heating if I were to go with your suggestion and use propane tanks and make it all pressurized, Wouldn't the cost of adding freeze protection to that amount of capacity be huge?

 

[salecker]

You will need freeze protection no mater what you do.
My system is pressurized,and split in two.My wood boiler and storage is water with provisions to circulate the water in event of no heat.The boiler and storage are in their own building.
Then i have a plate heat exchange that has glycol on the other side which is the underground lines, the house and backup boiler.
I do have a unit heater in the boiler building just in case.

 

[maple1]

Just wondering, With infloor heating if I were to go with your suggestion and use propane tanks and make it all pressurized, Wouldn't the cost of adding freeze protection to that amount of capacity be huge?

If you need it for separate boiler and storage then you will also need it for your 5000 gallon boiler. I think.

 

[leon]

Have you thought at all about making steam for a single pipe steam system with panel radiators for your home and steam to
forced air Zurn garage heaters using refrigerant grade soft copper tubing in the welding shop and your vehicle garage fed from a
steel pipe main.

You would not require storage of hot water for steam heat and the single pipe dry steam system is the simplest steam heating system to own and operate.

The AHS multifuel hand fed coal boiler comes in four sizes and can burn wood and they can have ASME inspection stamps-they require two ASME stamps to be certified. The inspection cost is not included in the base price.

The four sizes they offer in this boiler are:
150,000 BTU 40 gallons
225,000 BTU 55 gallons
265,000 BTU 75 gallons
400,000 BTU 95 gallons

If you can snag surplus insulated tank car with enough volume you can make plenty of hot water using a 3 speed B+G NRF25 circulator with the number one setting will move 12 gallons per minute 720 gallons per hour 5680 gallons per day 39,760 gallons per week if the math is right off the top of my head so that would be 6000 gallons more per week than the capacity of a surplus insulated 33,000 gallon tank car.

When I was burning wood I always found that if I keep the boiler water temperature at summer operating temperatures 140 low 160 high with 190 degrees as the dump zone temperature it recovered much more quickly with no wild pressure or temperature swings in my closed system.


The huge mistake many people make with in floor heating is keeping the temperature too high which ruins wood floors and wastes energy.

 

[Karl_northwind]

you would only need freeze protection for the heating system. not for the 5000 gallon storage. the way you want to lay out your system you could use no antifreeze, and use your backup boiler as freeze protection. antifreeze in the shop coils wouldn't be a bad idea. but beyond that, especially with your location it doesn't get really cold does it? like no below zero F right?

 

[pulseing]

You will need freeze protection no mater what you do.
My system is pressurized,and split in two.My wood boiler and storage is water with provisions to circulate the water in event of no heat.The boiler and storage are in their own building.
Then i have a plate heat exchange that has glycol on the other side which is the underground lines, the house and backup boiler.
I do have a unit heater in the boiler building just in case.

If you need it for separate boiler and storage then you will also need it for your 5000 gallon boiler. I think.

you would only need freeze protection for the heating system. not for the 5000 gallon storage. the way you want to lay out your system you could use no antifreeze, and use your backup boiler as freeze protection. antifreeze in the shop coils wouldn't be a bad idea. but beyond that, especially with your location it doesn't get really cold does it? like no below zero F right?

Karl answered my question. That makes sense, I could easily add a PHE to the pressurized/non-pressurized storage tank and also use the backup boiler as freeze protection. Everything except the storage tanks would not require freeze protection since I plan on keeping it all indoors anyway.

 

[maple1]

The storage tanks shouldn't need it either if put with the boiler. Which I'm thinking you should be able to do if you were first thinking about a 5000 gallon boiler.

 

[salecker]

Must be nice to think that having something inside is frost protection.
Up here being inside when something happens to the heat only means that you won't have to deal with any snow that falls.At -40C being inside an unheated building doesn't take long before your inside temp is in the freezing range.