Weird outlet wiring

[faultymechanics]

Hello all,

My wife and I just closed in a house and I’ve been going through replacing almost all the outlets.

I came across an outlet today that was different from the others (still a typical 15a US outlet). Instead of the normal 2 white, 2 black and ground bundle, this one had 3 white, 1 black and a ground. The extra white was on the same side as the hot wire(black). Is that normal?

I don’t want to burn my house down....

 

[bholler]

Hello all,

My wife and I just closed in a house and I’ve been going through replacing almost all the outlets.

I came across an outlet today that was different from the others (still a typical 15a US outlet). Instead of the normal 2 white, 2 black and ground bundle, this one had 3 white, 1 black and a ground. The extra white was on the same side as the hot wire(black). Is that normal?

I don’t want to burn my house down....

Nothing else in the box at all? That is very odd

 

[PA Mountain Man]

Hello all,

My wife and I just closed in a house and I’ve been going through replacing almost all the outlets.

I came across an outlet today that was different from the others (still a typical 15a US outlet). Instead of the normal 2 white, 2 black and ground bundle, this one had 3 white, 1 black and a ground. The extra white was on the same side as the hot wire(black). Is that normal?

I don’t want to burn my house down....

No not normal. Do you have 2 romex coming into the box? or is it conduit?
Pictures would help
You need one these

3-Wire Receptacle Tester

 

[brenndatomu]

Instead of the normal 2 white, 2 black and ground bundle, this one had 3 white, 1 black and a ground. The extra white was on the same side as the hot wire(black).

Does the extra white wire have black electrical tape wrapped around it? You see that sometimes where someone used the wrong wire color, but taped the ends to be the right color...

 

[PA Mountain Man]

Does the extra white wire have black electrical tape wrapped around it? You see that sometimes where someone used the wrong wire color, but taped the ends to be the right color...

If the wires come into the box thru conduit, I could see that. But romex comes with 1 black and 1 white...

 

[brenndatomu]

If the wires come into the box thru conduit, I could see that. But romex comes with 1 black and 1 white...

Maybe there is an extra romex...with the other wires cut off? Some weird stuff out there...

 

[PA Mountain Man]

Maybe there is an extra romex...with the other wires cut off? Some weird stuff out there...

Amen to that. I do mostly commercial and I see it there also.

 

[faultymechanics]

So it comes into the box as groups of cable, no hard conduit. The solid core wires are wrapped in a plastic like sleeving , so I’m thinking Romex?

My father suggested the extra white neutral wire is coming from a nearby light switch? Does that sound possible?

Almost like they’re routing power through the outlet by putting the neutral on the same side as the hot and then using the wall switch to control power to the light(or whatever it powers).

I do have a test I’ll be bringing with me to the house tomorrow.

 

[faultymechanics]

Does the extra white wire have black electrical tape wrapped around it? You see that sometimes where someone used the wrong wire color, but taped the ends to be the right color...

No electrical tape or anything signifying that. This was my initial thought, maybe they just ran out of black wire? Seems like a bad place to substitute white for black though.

 

[PA Mountain Man]

So it comes into the box as groups of cable, no hard conduit. The solid core wires are wrapped in a plastic like sleeving , so I’m thinking Romex?

My father suggested the extra white neutral wire is coming from a nearby light switch? Does that sound possible?

Almost like they’re routing power through the outlet by putting the neutral on the same side as the hot and then using the wall switch to control power to the light(or whatever it powers).

I do have a test I’ll be bringing with me to the house tomorrow.

I need pictures.

 

[xman23]

So this white wire and the black wire were on the hot side of the outlet. More than likely they just ran out of conductors from point A to B, and used the white wire. Not everyone is good at taping the wire to be the proper color.

One other scenario is when you split the outlet. That is use the top plug to be hot, and the bottom to operate from a switch. You cut a small metal piece between the two hot side screws. Hence the two wires.

 

[faultymechanics]

So this white wire and the black wire were on the hot side of the outlet. More than likely they just ran out of conductors from point A to B, and used the white wire. Not everyone is good at taping the wire to be the proper color.

One other scenario is when you split the outlet. That is use the top plug to be hot, and the bottom to operate from a switch. You cut a small metal piece between the two hot side screws. Hence the two wires.

It seems to make the outlet tester happy so it may very well be the first part you mentioned. I know it has been wired this way for probably 50-60years.

Unfortunately I was busy installing more outlets today to pull the outlet and take some photos.

I ended up running into a few more issues.

I have three outlets with loose outlet boxes. Two of those outlets also had the holes made too big so they sink into the wall AND the plate doesn’t cover the hole.


I need a non invasive solution for this if there is one haha.

 

[brenndatomu]

I have three outlets with loose outlet boxes. Two of those outlets also had the holes made too big so they sink into the wall AND the plate doesn’t cover the hole.


I need a non invasive solution for this if there is one haha.

Looks like a good place for oversized or jumbo outlet covers...

 

[mcdougy]

Red green found duct tape painted, solved alot of issues?? That hot white wire is heading somewhere, be careful changing light fixtures or switches it might show up when your not expecting it....everyone knows an electrician, I suggest letting one have a quick look at what is going on....by the way the boxes were cut in (hammer) someone was pretty crude.

 

[PA Mountain Man]

It seems to make the outlet tester happy so it may very well be the first part you mentioned. I know it has been wired this way for probably 50-60years.

Unfortunately I was busy installing more outlets today to pull the outlet and take some photos.

I ended up running into a few more issues.

I have three outlets with loose outlet boxes. Two of those outlets also had the holes made too big so they sink into the wall AND the plate doesn’t cover the hole.

View attachment 271285View attachment 271286View attachment 271287View attachment 271288
I need a non invasive solution for this if there is one haha.

Oversize cover plates might work. Bigger problem is the boxes moving.These look like metal cut in boxes and you need to get the clips to secure them to the wall board if its not broken out too far.
This might cover the hole

https://www.lowes.com/pd/CARLON-2-Gang-Blue-Plastic-Old-Work-Standard-Switch-Outlet-Wall-Electrical-Box/1000975972

Then you need a different cover plate.
Or do the duct tape...

 

[brenndatomu]

That's not a bad idea, go to a double box, (cut in a much more precise hole this time) then just get a cover with one side blank...

 

[PA Mountain Man]

It seems to make the outlet tester happy so it may very well be the first part you mentioned. I know it has been wired this way for probably 50-60years.

Unfortunately I was busy installing more outlets today to pull the outlet and take some photos.

I ended up running into a few more issues.

I have three outlets with loose outlet boxes. Two of those outlets also had the holes made too big so they sink into the wall AND the plate doesn’t cover the hole.

View attachment 271285View attachment 271286View attachment 271287View attachment 271288
I need a non invasive solution for this if there is one haha.

Oversize cover plates might work. Bigger problem is the boxes moving.These look like metal cut in boxes and you need to get the clips to secure them to the wall board if its not broken out too far.

That's not a bad idea, go to a double box, (cut in a much more precise hole this time) then just get a cover with one side blank...

Improvise, adapt and overcome

 

[brenndatomu]

Oversize cover plates might work. Bigger problem is the boxes moving.These look like metal cut in boxes and you need to get the clips to secure them to the wall board if its not broken out too far.

It almost looks like there is a clip only on one side? (maybe none on the GFI?) Need to stick a second one on there to make a pair if so...should look like this...

These might help too...
(broken link removed)

 

[Bad LP]

It almost looks like there is a clip only on one side? (maybe none on the GFI?) Need to stick a second one on there to make a pair if so...should look like this...
View attachment 271301
These might help too...
(broken link removed)

Madison Bars is what they are called.

 

[rwhite]

Hard to say without a pic of the wiring but it does sound like a 1/2 switch outlet like this
The other issue is the box. The large plate may cover the hole but shouldn't be relied upon to stabilize the outlet. If it were me I'd try to replace with an old work box and maybe the arms would get some purchase on the wallboard. The other option is try to square up the hole to get a plate of some type behind the wall and then cut a piece of wallboard to fit the square and screw it together. Then you could hide it all behind the plate.

 

[rwhite]

Based on the shoddy installation I'd check a few other things as well. Make sure you don't have a random switch that does nothing. That usually means they replaced outlets and just swapped wires and didn't break the tabs. I'd check every outlet on the circuit. Also make sure that when the breaker is off there is no power to either the top or bottom plug ins.

 

[Highbeam]

We don't have plaster or other weird wall coverings here in the PNW very often and I've made life very miserable for myself trying to save the old sheetrock. I've changed my approach to this type of problem over the years and now I just cut out a big 12"x16"square of drywall, fix the electrical shortcomings, replace the box with a new work box, and then install a new drywall panel.

It's really easy to work with drywall and mud. If this is some sort of horsehair lathe stuff from the 1800s then I don't know but since you have romex I suspect you're working with sheetrock.

If the hole is just oversized but the box is tight and the electrical all good then there are ways to repair the oversize hole. You might have to make the hole a little bigger to start but it's not a hard deal.

 

[rwhite]

It appears to be a celotex type wall board. If the thickness is the same it can be patched with drywall.

 

[blades]

If you really want to have fun , try playing with low voltage switch circuits circa late 50's early 60's . The 110v line switching is handled by relays which also means there is one or more step down transformers hiding out ( typically 24v ac) which may or may not be located in or on the box of the outlets or fixtures. ( that's the cheap way) Proper way was everything was brought to a master cabinet with all the relays and step down transformers there in. I have had 2 homes with this over the years. First one was a nightmare - nothing like digging through 12+" of blown in fiberglass to find a malfunctioning relay/ transformer ( switches seldom go out but relay contacts go south). So instead of a couple bucks for a new switch its $20-30 ( or it used to be) for a relay/ transformer even more fun when it is part of a multiswitch for the same fixture circuit. A lot like chasing down malfunctioning doorbell wiring ( generally 22 gauge bell wire( may or may not be in twisted pairs).

 

[rwhite]

If you really want to have fun , try playing with low voltage switch circuits circa late 50's early 60's . The 110v line switching is handled by relays which also means there is one or more step down transformers hiding out ( typically 24v ac) which may or may not be located in or on the box of the outlets or fixtures. ( that's the cheap way) Proper way was everything was brought to a master cabinet with all the relays and step down transformers there in. I have had 2 homes with this over the years. First one was a nightmare - nothing like digging through 12+" of blown in fiberglass to find a malfunctioning relay/ transformer ( switches seldom go out but relay contacts go south). So instead of a couple bucks for a new switch its $20-30 ( or it used to be) for a relay/ transformer even more fun when it is part of a multiswitch for the same fixture circuit. A lot like chasing down malfunctioning doorbell wiring ( generally 22 gauge bell wire( may or may not be in twisted pairs).

My last home wiring was done by a monkey with a hammer. They ran partial new wire to switched outlets but left the old wire for the bottom plug. Everything checked out fine with a tester but in reality they didnt break the tabs and they put the switch on a different circuit. So even if you shut off 1 breaker it was back fed by the other. That was a mess to straighten out.