What do you think of my creosote buildup?

[mnowaczyk]

I have possibly burnt about four cords of wood in my slammer install of my ~1980 Vermont Stove Company - Shelburne non-cat stove. Maybe more. I know you aren't supposed to do slammer installs, but I guess I decided to live on the edge.

My chimney is approximately 40 feet tall, masonry with 13x13" clay liner, and on the side of the house, but only exposed externally for very small sections. I would be tempted to call it an internal chimney.

Well, here's the video of me laying in the fireplace and looking past the ~4" damper (removed). There is a coating of a few mm just about everywhere in the chimney.

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Does anyone have any suggestions for good types of chimney brushes for this setup? My smoke shelf appears to be angled until it gets to the clay liner that is a straight shot to the top of the stack.

 

[HotCoals]

Looks good I would say. Must use low MC wood!
No idea on the brush you would need.
I know back in the day people used to rattle a chain down through them.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Wow. That sure makes me feel good. I had a heck of a time learning to burn, and realized that the wood makes all the difference and do everything I can to keep the stove hot as heck when I burn. The old thick stove is really solidly built and try to keep the temperatures on the face of the stove above 450 F at a minimum. Having a slammer install I worry a lot about creosote. On the plus side, I should be burning hot, dry, and have a killer draft with the 40 foot tall flu. (We do get some smoke smell in the house on rare warm days when the weather quickly changes to warm, but those aren't wood burning days.)

I honestly expected to get a "DONT BURN ANOTHER FIRE" response. I think it looks pretty nasty and could see myself getting a gallon of creosote flakes out of the chimney.

So I'm debating on what to do for my next burn.

- Should I burn an open fire and cook the chimney clean with an amazing roaring fire? With some creosote remover fire additive?

- should I just burn the old smoke dragon with the creosote remover additive?

Feeling a little better about the initial response, I'm tempted to start a fire before I even get the brushes. We currently don't have heat since I'm working on the heating system with the radiators drained. Cooking in the kitchen and the sun seems to heat the house enough, but I've got about 6 cords of mixed and black locust that is seasoned for 2 years and 6 months respectively. I need to get rid of some wood!

I can't wait for a toasty fire.

Patience... Patience...

 

[Hogwildz]

Does that chimney even have a clay liner in it?
Living on the edge is exactly what your doing. From what I see there is a good bit of build up in there.
The worst part will be up top, have you checked up top?
Not preaching, but if that were my place, I myself would not be burning that set up without cleaning the entire flue, and making sure it has a liner in it.
Especially if it is mostly inside the house. A chimney fire with an unlined chimney with any kind of breaks or cracks could be the demise of your home.
Just my two cents, but do what you gotta do.

If you can't find the right brush, these guys make custom brushes.
(broken link removed)

 

[mnowaczyk]

Thanks! That's more the type of answer I was expecting .

The smoke shelf is brick masonry and that's where the tilt and angle are in the flu before it meets up with about 30-35 feet of square 13"x13" clay liner that is about 1" thick.

It is a corner fireplace in a 45-degree wall. So there's a lot of space back there and a lot of masonry that is intended to have flames in it.

All you can really see in the video is that angled portion of the bottom of the flu.

I've really got no way of getting to the top without a slate roofer since I've got a 12-10 pitch slate roof and my 40-foot ladder doesn't even come close to getting me high enough to get I top of the stack. My slate roof repair man did drop a bucket from the top for me and we verified it is a straight shot.

Every time the chimney sweeps come out here promising that they will be able to clean the chimney, they take one look at the house and say they will come back with other equipment or they just can't do it. So it is time for me to figure out a means to do it myself.

 

[RockyMtnHigh]

I would call a professional chimney sweep and get a good evaluation of the entire chimney. If there is an issue with the clay tile on the interior of the chimney you will need to use a liner (which it should really have anyways). Dancing with the possibility of burning your home down isn't something to be taken lightly imo.

Aside from that it really doesn't look too terrible, soot isn't too bad its the nasty sticky creosote you don't want. They make drill attachments that have three chains attached by rods to knock that stuff off. I bet the top of the chimney is WAY dirtier than what you're looking at. Be safe my friend!

 

[weatherguy]

It would be so much easier to clean with a liner in there too, you could do a bottom up clean with a sooteater, If it was me I'd lay out the cost not just for the ease of cleaning but for peace of mind.

 

[Charles1981]

well it doesn't look like stage 3 glazed creosote... Find a way to sweep it before that occurs.

 

[blades]

Bottom up with a soot eater, You will need to make a removable block off plate to seal the bottom with a small hole to pass the rod through.
Line that monster asap.

 

[BobUrban]

Look into the soot eater and cleaning from the bottom. Nice house!

 

[mnowaczyk]

Thanks again everyone!

Soot eater it is! An ebay seller recommended that product too. I had been looking at square brushes. I may buy myself a nice little collection of tools.

Thanks for the comment on the house. It looks like one, but is actually two. I'm attached to a neighbor, so if I burn down the house, I might burn his down too. It really is a well build brick house, made in 1929, and the whole neighborhood is on the National historic register. So burning it down would be a real shame.

I debated the liner question for a while, but understand that both the damper and a significant amount of fire brick would need to be knocked out to put in a $3000+ liner installation. I'm too cheap. Also, my (unattached) neighbor (who I share a woodpile with) loves to burn in his open fireplace. He had his lined, and is having a heck of a time creating a draft a bunch of times. Getting smoke in the house, and ultimately burning a lot less now. With the amount he likes to burn, it's a crying shame. It makes me feel a LOT better about my decision to not line it. Personally, I think with our longer flu lengths that the larger diameter is justified. As I said before, it always drafts really well, except for rare days when the chimney top must heat up from the sun and warm weather.

In winter 2010/2011 I installed a triangle tube mod-con boiler (coming from oil) and I think our heating costs dropped to 1/3rd due to efficiency and switching from oil to N.gas. We are also up to ~5-6 cords of wood and I don't think I've ever burnt more than 2.5 a season. So it is much harder to justify the time feeding the stove, and I'm really considering removing the insert to not worry as much about creosote. The early feedback from the video makes me feel a lot better about my text-book-dangerous slammer install. So I will definitely go another season.

TMI, for sure. I sure do appreciate everything I've learned on this site. Unfortunately, I think my only contributions may be the manuals for the VC 044/046 fireplace insert and the Vermont Stove Castings - Shelburne insert (I have two of).

(I have long thought of using the extra shelburne to burn in the garage, but figure burning wood in the garage where flammables are stored is way too dangerous. So I do have my limits on danger. )

 

[Hogwildz]

Adding a liner for your insert is going to increase the draft if anything. His open fireplace calls for a larger exhaust path, yours calls for a smaller one to match the outlet of the stove.
A 13" x 13" flue is actually slowing your draft, which also causes more creosote.
$3k for a liner install is a gouging at best.
Research chicken ladders if your serious about cleaning yourself. Soot eaters are great, but a yearly inspection of the upper portion of the chimney is the most important area to check.

 

[mnowaczyk]

You are right hogwildz. My insert calls for an 8" liner. I'm also not sure what size my neighbor had put in. I'm just not so committed to the insert that I want to do the liner job.

Apparently a good portion of the estimate for the liner job is over $500 to rent the boom for the few who estimated.

I never knew the term "chicken ladder", but a ladder with a hook over the peak is the way my slate roofer got up there. I guess I'm a little afraid of heights these days. I used to climb the 40-foot ladder with no fear, but the last time I got above the third story on that thing in my driveway got me a little shaky and thinking about the fact that I've got a few kids to take care of now. Tough decision when it comes to risking the life of myself (ladder) or my entire family (chimney fire). I think I did get up on my roofer's "chicken ladder" when he got up on the chimney, but I sure didn't have the balls to climb up on that cap like he did.

So I was thinking that with the soot eater I could connect extensions until I got to the top and then started cleaning my way down. I assume that would tell me how nasty it is up there. Perhaps if the worry is tarry gew at the top, then I should clean from bottom up and inspect the brush for gew by pulling out the brush immediately after brushing the top (rather than cleaning on the way down).

This has already been a very informative thread for me. So thank you all very much for your help!

Sincerely,
Mike

 

[begreen]

Forty feet of liner is going to draw like locomotive. You should discuss downsizing the liner to 7" or possibly to 6" to compensate.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Round:
Pi * r^2 = area
6" --> 28.26 square inch
8" --> 50.24"

square:
12x12 --> 144 square inch
13x13 --> 169

No matter what I do will be a dramatic difference. Since I'm not committed to the fireplace insert, for the long haul, I am not ready to make the drastic change to the chimney.

The stove does make it much easier to manage the fire, and my Shelburne does have the ability to run like an open fire with an included custom fit screen. So, maybe I could commit for the long haul, but...

Next step:
Soot eater and maybe some brushes. Maybe study up on cleaning the chimney.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

Beautiful house, if your the owner call a chimney sweep and install it correctly....

 

[mellow]

Ahh yes, thought I remembered this install, previous thread on the liner: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/liner-design-any-help-for-a-noob.45855/

You didn't want to alter the state of the fireplace to install the liner.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Beautiful house, if your the owner call a chimney sweep and install it correctly....

Thank you.

I am the owner. It's just half the house pictured. (Lots of "twins" in the neighborhood look like single massive homes, but are actually two normal-sized homes with 4-5 bedrooms built in the 20's.) There's no doubt it is a well built house. We just got central AC after about five years, and just removed the wall AC units from the brick a week or so ago, filling the holes with brick I stole from the garage by cutting an access hole to the shed behind. :thumbsup: I drained the radiators to replaced a missing radiator that belongs where one of the wall units was placed by a previous owner. The fireplace insert is going to get us through until I complete the install of that radiator. Getting it up the steps with just the help of my wife was a lot easier than I expected.

Anyway, the problem with the chimney sweeps around here is that nobody wants to go to the top for several reasons.
- Break a slate? $$$
- wrong ladders on the truck when they arrive, even if I provide them all the details prior.
I'm just tired of wasting my time with sweeps and want to invest in the tools to do it myself. I'm a cheap bastard too.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Ahh yes, thought I remembered this install, previous thread on the liner: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/liner-design-any-help-for-a-noob.45855/

You didn't want to alter the state of the fireplace to install the liner.

Impressive memory!

Surprised anybody wants to waste times on my threads.

 

[mellow]

Just wanted to post that so people purposing a liner can have some background knowledge of the subject.

You must be doing something right if you haven't had a chimney fire since you posted that in 2010.

Not sure I have seen someone use a sooteater on a 40 foot chimney yet, let us know how it goes.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Just wanted to post that so people purposing a liner can have some background knowledge of the subject.

You must be doing something right if you haven't had a chimney fire since you posted that in 2010.

Not sure I have seen someone use a sooteater on a 40 foot chimney yet, let us know how it goes.

I act like I'm scared of nothing on this forum, but I'm pretty scared of a chimney fire and try to keep that fire so damn hot when I burn.

I went ahead and started a fire shortly after hearing the initial response (my patience failed). We now have the windows open because it is almost 80 degrees inside now.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Here's a typical fire in my stove, during peak day time. I took some pics while I reloaded.

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And here is the wood. The scrawny black locust behind my house got cut down by the power company. People actually stole the wood out of the back of my truck while I was having dinner because the people that follow the power company trucks around at so aggressive. I had to "defend my wood" in order to get what I got. I then split it all myself, and gave about two cords to my neighbor that put it in his garage. This is what is left. Kindling is kept out front where the kids play "pick up sticks".

 

[Paul L]

I gotta say, working at the top of my 25 ft chimney can give me the wobbles but looking at the pic of your monster stack ... man that is a whole 'nother deal.

 

[bag of hammers]

Also, my (unattached) neighbor (who I share a woodpile with) loves to burn in his open fireplace. He had his lined, and is having a heck of a time creating a draft a bunch of times.

I thought liners were designed for heating appliances only - I didn't know you could line the chimney for use with an open fireplace (disclaimer - all I know about liners could be written on a matchbook)

 

[mnowaczyk]

I thought liners were designed for heating appliances only - I didn't know you could line the chimney for use with an open fireplace (disclaimer - all I know about liners could be written on a matchbook)

If you have a chimney fire, you have no choice but to get a liner, no matter what kind of fire you run inside it.

The slower draft of air limiting stoves/inserts causes the flu gasses to be both cooler, and slower-moving. The result is typically more creosote. More creosote means more risk of chimney fire --> need a liner. Also many masonry chimneys are too short and wide to draft properly with a wood stove (some even with just an open fire) --> need a liner to reduce diameter and make chimney quicker to heat.

On the other hand, inserts and stoves reduce the flow of air and sparks that cause fires. So my perception/belief is that you are somewhat less likely to have a chimney fire as a result of the way an insert burns. ...

But, the larger amount of creosote from air tight inserts and stoves is a larger contributing factor to fires.

The only person I know that had a chimney fire has an old crappy wood stove that they often ran like an both and open fireplace and stove, AND it also had a significant horizontal section where all the creosote built up just above the stove where there is significant risk of a chimney fire from sparks. Creosote will build up in horizontal sections due to the smoke path AND due to creosote falling from above.

Liners are proposed for both safety and creating better drafts. Unfortunately for my neighbor, it might simply not draft enough volume, but the velocity is probably better than his previous config. (His stack appears nearly a full story shorter than mine.)