What every gasifier wants to be when it grows up

[heaterman]

Viessmann recently purchased this company. Unfortunately they currently have no plans to bring the residential/light commercial product over here. The huge sizes possibly in a year or two. I think that sucks. We should sue for discrimination............or something.

Note the features on this boiler that make it easy to use, super efficient and low maintenance.

1. The combustion air path is horizontal through the wood which virtually eliminates burn outs, problems starting a fire and bridging.

2. Hinged cleanout door over the flue tubes with built in cleaning turbulators

3. Draw through combustion fan equals no smoke in the house when filling or cleaning

4. Ash pan under the flue tubes in back with a separate cleanout door

5. Built in emergency cooling coil

6. Lambda (O2) sensor control of the combustion process for clean burning even at 50% output.

I could go on but I'd just get more frustrated...........

Here's the link you can copy and paste to your browser. It's a 1.5Mb PDF file

(broken link removed)

I think it would help if a few hundred of us e-mailed Viessmann and encouraged them to bring some pieces like this over here.

Their e-mail is [email protected]

 

[firebird400]

looks like a great system wish they were here

 

[Redox]

Wow; CAN-BUS on a wood boiler, I'm impressed. It's pretty, too.

 

[Burn-1]

Yow! just when I thought the Vitolig 200/Windhager units were the top. I liked the Herlt setup too.

Now, if we were looking at $15-18K for a Vitolig 200. What would the MSRP on something like this run?

 

[Redox]

Yow! just when I thought the Vitolig 200/Windhager units were the top. I liked the Herlt setup too.

Now, if we were looking at $15-18K for a Vitolig 200. What would the MSRP on something like this run?

And how long would it take to make up the difference between it and the Eko?

"Poland! Don't forget Poland!" :lol:

Chris

 

[Eric Johnson]

I'll be at the World Bioenergy Conference in Sweden in late May. Hopefully they'll have all these boilers on display and I will be able to check them out firsthand, take some pics, and maybe talk them into sending a few to North America. Maybe a "test" unit or two.

 

[Nofossil]

The burning question (so to speak) is how they manage to get a lambda (wideband O2) sensor to survive. That's clearly the only way to get real control of the combustion process.

Interesting idea to use a blower on the exhaust. I' assuming that they have servo controlled shutters to regulate the primary / secondary air balance.

 

[heaterman]

Draw through combustion air (negative pressure firebox) is actually quite common on a lot of the more modern gasifier designs from Europe. It eliminates smoke problems which are typical of "pressurized" fireboxes. This makes installation in the living space very doable, something that can't be said for typical designs with the air forced into the combustion chamber.

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

Induced draft (fan on the exhaust) is the most controllable way to deal with combustion. But it's harder on the fan, so it's a trade-off.

Servo-actuated dampers for each air path are easier to operate than speed-controlled motors.

Joe

 

[heaterman]

Induced draft (fan on the exhaust) is the most controllable way to deal with combustion. But it's harder on the fan, so it's a trade-off.

Servo-actuated dampers for each air path are easier to operate than speed-controlled motors.

Joe

You're right on the control issue Joe.

I think that on these units, being they have such good control of the combustion, the temps in the exhaust stream are probably not an issue for the fan wheel.

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

I think that on these units, being they have such good control of the combustion, the temps in the exhaust stream are probably not an issue for the fan wheel.

Usually not so much an issue of temperature as corrosiveness ("stainless" is stain-less, not stain-proof) and possible large particles, creosote, and even embers.

Joe

 

[heaterman]

I think that on these units, being they have such good control of the combustion, the temps in the exhaust stream are probably not an issue for the fan wheel.

Usually not so much an issue of temperature as corrosiveness ("stainless" is stain-less, not stain-proof) and possible large particles, creosote, and even embers.

Joe

I too think that corrosion could be a problem but you would see it mainly in non gasification units where there are a lot of "wet" combustion byproducts. A gasifier has just a fraction of the material in the exhaust stream compared to a conventional wood boiler.
Having looked at a number of Garns that have been in service for 10+ years, I don't see corrosion as being to much of a problem. The Garns have the blower wheel directly in the exhaust stream where temps are routinely in the 250-400* range. I haven't talked to an owner yet that has had to replace the wheel and the one's I have actually laid my eyes on show little if any wear and tear.

 

[heaterman]

Yow! just when I thought the Vitolig 200/Windhager units were the top. I liked the Herlt setup too.

Now, if we were looking at $15-18K for a Vitolig 200. What would the MSRP on something like this run?

And how long would it take to make up the difference between it and the Eko?

"Poland! Don't forget Poland!" :lol:

Chris

Pricing is anyone's guess but they would be at the upper end for sure. I myself would gladly pay an extra couple grand for this technology because I know the benefits it would provide. From what I understand, the controller is set up out of the box for solar integration, DHW production and
charging the buffer tank.
Had an interesting conversation regarding Euro vs US pricing with my brother just last week. He operates one of the largest Husqvarna dealerships in the US (600-700 saws per year, most of them the Professional grade) He told me that lately he's been getting e-mails from Germany, Italy and other EU countries inquiring as to whether he'll ship saws to them. Seems that the pricing here in the US is far less than across the pond. Our retail pricing is less than wholesale is over there. I have no idea what is up with that or if the same things would apply on the wood boilers. Interesting Huh?

 

[Eric Johnson]

I'll try to get prices on the boilers that I see. However, if you do some research, you'll see that the EKOs sell for considerably less in Europe than here--even with the exchange rate.

 

[Redox]

I'll try to get prices on the boilers that I see. However, if you do some research, you'll see that the EKOs sell for considerably less in Europe than here--even with the exchange rate.

Take some chain saws with you! Maybe you can trade them for one of those Vitoligs. Try getting that on the plane! :lol:

Actually, I just finished reading the ad copy for the Pyromat. What a sweet machine! Kinda like the BMW of the wood boiler world. Wonder what it would take to get one of these over to our side of the pond?

They also have a solution for burning sawdust and wood chips too. Guess that's the result of $8/gal oil for 'ya!

Chris

 

[Eric Johnson]

Not a bad idea. I can convert a couple of saws into Euros for beer money.

 

[skatedoktor]

There is a KOB distributor in canada. www.finkmachine.com

He quoted me a price on a pyromat eco

Pyromat ECO 45 kw c/w
- Grundfos pump for primary loop M20 (installed)
- Motorized 3-way mixing valve for primary loop Y20 (installed)
- Motorized 3-way mixing valve for primary loop Y28
- Controls panel (input voltage: 230)
KPM-ECO-45 15,968

Thermal safety valve 214.00
1 Control extension 512.00
1 Control wire 48.00
4 User groups 1,120.00
4 3-way mixer 1,696.00
2 Storage tanks 2,752.00
2 Tank insulation 2,070.00
1 Freight to Enderby 750.00
1 Travel and accommodations ??????

For a total of 25,130.00


This is in canadian funds. They are located in BC

 

[heaterman]

There is a KOB distributor in canada. www.finkmachine.com

He quoted me a price on a pyromat eco

Pyromat ECO 45 kw c/w
- Grundfos pump for primary loop M20 (installed)
- Motorized 3-way mixing valve for primary loop Y20 (installed)
- Motorized 3-way mixing valve for primary loop Y28
- Controls panel (input voltage: 230)
KPM-ECO-45 15,968

Thermal safety valve 214.00
1 Control extension 512.00
1 Control wire 48.00
4 User groups 1,120.00
4 3-way mixer 1,696.00
2 Storage tanks 2,752.00
2 Tank insulation 2,070.00
1 Freight to Enderby 750.00
1 Travel and accommodations ??????

For a total of 25,130.00


This is in canadian funds. They are located in BC

So.

The burning question (pun intended) is...........are you going to pull the trigger or not?

Looks like a material list for a very complete and sophisticated package.

 

[skatedoktor]

I might, i think there is a good amount of good negotiation that will have to take place before i make a decision. I think he can do much better on the price. I am in southern ontario so i will also have to pay for travel and accommodations. I am not sure if this gasification boiler would be that much better than a eko or atmos?

Comments?

 

[heaterman]

I might, i think there is a good amount of good negotiation that will have to take place before i make a decision. I think he can do much better on the price. I am in southern ontario so i will also have to pay for travel and accommodations. I am not sure if this gasification boiler would be that much better than a eko or atmos?

Comments?

In terms of simply comparing the gasification process between the brands you mentioned, there isn't a lot of difference once gasification has been established in the burn chamber. From looking at the design though, I have to think that the KOB is going to reach gasification much more quickly due to the air flow pattern. This will mean efficiency will be maximized and a clean creosote free burn will happen a higher percentage of each load.

In regards to the control aspect of the boiler and the burn process, there really isn't much comparison between them. The Kob is in a different league entirely. It appears from the material list that you have multiple zones in your system that require different water temps and the control on the Kpb will sort that all out for you. If you go with one of the others, that will have to be field engineered. Not saying that it can't be done, just that the person doing the installation will have to have some expertise in that field if you choose to install an aftermarket type control like a Tekmar or equivalent.

I'd buy the Kob based on one feature alone and that is the draw through combustion design. I've seen how this works on the Garn's that we have installed and I wouldn't purchase a boiler lacking that feature personally.

 

[penfrydd]

This draw-through combustion...is that any different than the fan being on the hot side of the fire, as in the Eshland Wood Gun? I can assure you; that didn't eliminate smoke in the house! Also, the engineering wasn't quite thought through, as the heat would travel down the shaft of the fan and smoke the blower motor bearings (several times).

 

[heaterman]

This draw-through combustion...is that any different than the fan being on the hot side of the fire, as in the Eshland Wood Gun? I can assure you; that didn't eliminate smoke in the house! Also, the engineering wasn't quite thought through, as the heat would travel down the shaft of the fan and smoke the blower motor bearings (several times).

Obviously different. The life of the bearings and heat the motor is subjected to would be function of how much heat is left in the flue gas at that point. The Garns typically see 275-350* at the motor which is easily tolerable. I would guess that the Kob is able to maintain a lower temp than that due to the tightly controlled combustion via the Lambda sensor. It is probably calibrated to maintain flue gas temps slightly above condensing territory which would be about 300*.

AFA the smoke issue is concerned, all I can say is that a Garn doesn't smoke with the door open even if there's a good sized fire burning. You have to see it to believe it. Again, I'm assuming that the Kob would be designed in the same manner judging from the way most of the higher end Euro stuff is engineered.