Whats in that everburn ceramic thing?

[Vermontster]

I have a Lopi Leyden, which I have been told has the same system as the VC everburn.
So my question:

What is in that ceramic port (combustion brick) in the back of the stove? - Or supposed to be in it?

I stuck a vacuum hose in and pulled out chunks of ash (seems like ash), I do not know what kinda ash, but it's in hard compact form.

is this normal, should I get all this ash stuff out?

I have no idea what to do with this thing.
Thanks

 

[branchburner]

Are you talking about vacuuming the combustion brick, or what's behind it, the actual combustor? If you're poking the combustor that could be trouble. If it's made of the same ceramic fiber as my Harman Oakwood, it doesn't take kindly to being disturbed except with kid gloves. How big are these solid-ash chunks you're talking about?

 

[trailblaze]

hmmm, it seems as if you sucked out parts of the insulation type material behind the everburn...

i'd remove it and check it out before the burn season starts....you might be fine, but your might have to replace something

 

[Vermontster]

thanks for the replies

The ash is kinda different than you typical fire box ash, but it is in these 1/2 to 1 inch round chunks, and I might assume that ash from in there it would be a bit compacted.
the chunks are from the bottom, below the combustion ports, where ash would be

I used the vacuum to clean it out because I could not remove the unit fearing damage to the bolts. The manual recommends vacuuming the 6 tiny holes directly under the combustion ports.
The manual of course gives no clue to what is contained inside this unit.

anyone know of a diagram, cross section type picture of unit like this?

 

[N/A N/A]

Can you post a picture of what your getting out of your stove? We might be able to tell you for sure then if we could get a look at it.

 

[N/A N/A]

And also show a pic and point where your exactly getting the mystery ash from.

 

[branchburner]

I did notice checking the Leyden manual online, on p35, they show firebox parts, including combustor (w/ a little note, "take care not to damage this component"). On p33, Cleaning the Combustor, it shows where the ash builds up at the back of the firebox.
This is where my Oakwood combustor was damaged - the previous owner must have wedged the vacuum down there and cracked it - now I know why he said the stove didn't draft well for him! But I couldn't say how that translates to your stove, other than that ceramic fiber stuff is about as solid as styrofoam... handle with care.

 

[Vermontster]

heres a picture. I am pointing to the opening and the fact that I am vacuuming in a downward fashion (to get ash)
Some of what I found for "ash" you can see sitting in the bottom of firebox, those "chunks"

I did see the note about damaging the unit, but I am pretty sure they are referring to the cracking the bricks upon removal.
and of course mine does not have the clean out ports as shown in the manual, they added that right after mine...

anyways, thanks for the info

 

[KeithO]

Visit someone with a microscope and look at one of the chunks. If it has fiber in it, you know you have damage. Bear in mind these fibers have a diameter of 2-8 microns (that is about 0.08 - 0.32 thou). The primary problem with the refractory is that the binders that hold this stuff together are pretty crappy. If stove makers spent a bit more money, there is much higher grade material available that would be perfectly robust, but as usual everything is expected to be almost for free on the supply side with a hefty markup on the sales side. If I owned one of these stoves and had a problem, I would look at getting alumina firebrick (will withstand 2000F) and remaking the offending parts out of that instead. Having said that, I do have the benefit of having expert knowledge on these materials, whereas your typical consumer is pretty much on his own with his warranty and has to pay whatever the manufacturer demands. In my opinion, this is a much less reliable and ultimately much more expensive kind of stove than catalytic stoves from companies like Blaze King or Woodstock Soapstone, and I would not recommend anyone buying one.

 

[branchburner]

Just looking at the pic (but again, not knowing your stove) that looks like a piece of your combustor. Notice how the chunk is flat, kinda like a scrap of sheetrock? If you look closely, squeeze it with your fingers, and it doesn't crumble like ash then it's probably not ash. If it looks/feels like some weird, lightweight material from another planet, it's probably your combustor.
When I discovered my Oakwood combustor was damaged (quite by accident, reaching my hand down the back of the firebox feeling for ash/creosote) I decided to tear down the stove. That's when I ruined the combustor completely (I thought I could take it out the front of the stove, but mine comes out the back). A new piece ran $280 - ouch
Hopefully someone with a Leyden will post info on the best way to access/remove/inspect your combustor. Good luck!

 

[R&D Guy]

If you pulled that out from behind the 2 slots in your pic then I'm quite sure it's part of the combustion pack. Like said, it looks like dry wall and is about as hard. Was this a shop-vac? I wouldn't think a house vacuum cleaner would be strong enough, but if a shop-vac sucked onto it and you pulled it free I imagine it could break something like that. Can you see any damage though the slots? Could be it broke over the heating season and fell to where you sucked it into the vacuum.

Two things I'd consider -

Is your unit still under warranty? I don't know if it would cover damage from cleaning, but it's always nice to know if you're paying out of pocket for sure or only potentially.

Second, I'd burn the unit. I'm willing to bet the combustion brick is one unit so if they need to replace it, your not going to incur additional costs if you damage it more. If it burns about as clean (or dirty) as before and your warranty has expired, then I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[efoyt]

You might find this thread helpfull, it is all about a woodstove that uses the VT dutchwest everburn system.

 

[Vermontster]

You Guys are freaking me out.

now, lets say this space age sheetrock is now dust.
do you really need it? Stoves of the past never had it. I mean, without it, it's like a old Vigilant, a damn good stove.

I hate to think I will need one of these every season or less.

 

[begreen]

Yes, the refractory assembly + combustor is necessary for this stove's proper operation. This is a very different design than the old Vigilant.

To eliminate the obvious, was any construction debris burned last season?

 

[Vermontster]

Hmmm... I burned some maple flooring scraps at the end of the season. other than that, I can't be sure of anything else, mostly just maple, cherry and ash.

 

[begreen]

OK, I just wanted to eliminate the possibility of a chunk of sheetrock ending up in the stove. It does sound like a careful inspection of the stove combustor may be needed. This should be a warranty issue. I would have the dealer come out and do the job. The combustor is covered by a 3 yr parts and labor warranty.

 

[Vermontster]

3 Years
Good news!!

thanks for that, I was assuming something like a year or 90 days....
and like many things I will bet there is a quality difference in a replacement part, as they are out there doing warranty work. Or, at least I hope so.

so the store I bought from, is over an hour away in New Hampshire, I think there is a closer dealer. Can I contact the closer dealer to do the work?

 

[branchburner]

Not to put water on your fire, but I'm wondering if the warranty is going to cover that - those things don't fall apart by themselves, I wouldn't think. When I pulled mine out, it seemed to have damage from overfiring as well as being broken by a vacuum or poker. Plus I bought the stove used, plus I was going to be dealing with Harman, I figured pursuing the warranty was a lost cause for me.
I hope the dealer is responsive and helpful. Since I didn't buy from a dealer I didn't expect to get the time of day (another good reason to not buy used!)
Does anyone know what the life expectancy and/or heat tolerance is for these things? I'd be bummed to find out that my $300 ceramic fiber combustor needs periodic replacement!

 

[Vermontster]

I really do not think the vacuum did any damage at all. The chunks and more just came right out.

The rig is one year old, almost to the day. I think warranty should be honored.
But, I think that is a very good question, how long do these last? what is the life expectancy?

I use my stove for 95% of my heat, it never really occurred to me that might be too much.

 

[branchburner]

I found KeithO's comments about the cheaper consumer quality of ceramic fiber products interesting - I noticed his comments from a post of last October: "Just so you know, most of the ceramic board materials are alumina silicate. Silicate is basically glass. Unless the alumina content is at least 80% or more, it loses its mechanical properties fast at any temperature over 600 deg C." That's 1100 deg F - how hot does a fire get in a normal burn vs an "overfire" burn? If you need 1000 deg to get your secondary combustor to burn gases and your secondary combustor starts to braek down at 1100 deg, that's not a lot of wiggle room. I'd be a bit discouraged if that's the material in my stove!

 

[begreen]

Vermonster, I would work with the dealer you purchased the stove from. The bad news is you might need to bring the stove to their shop. Contact them this week and let them instruct you.

 

[Vermontster]

*Update*
I contacted the store I bought the stove from. They asked me to take some pictures, and email them over, because as he said, "we need to take care of this".
They did, I got a call, to let me know it was covered and the part is on the way!

Fantastic! Truly one of those rare experiences with great customer service.

Though, I still don't understand why this failed in the first place...

 

[branchburner]

That's great news! I admit I was overly pessimistic, but I always am when it comes to warranties and customer service and where the buck stops.
In looking at various threads, it seems that this ceramic fiber material may become unstable in some stoves after only a few seasons of burning. In comparing my new piece to the two-year old part I removed from my Harman, the old one had sections that were crumbly as well as sections that were very brittle and burnt-looking.
I will be interested to hear what your component looks/feels like when it's pulled out, and what they think was the cause of its demise.

 

[R&D Guy]

Hey that is great news!

Be sure to ask the dealer how you should clean it in the future.

 

[N/A N/A]

Great to hear its all going to work out for you!