Even without subsidies fossil fuels are still cheaper. Perhaps at some future point alternative or renewables will be less expensive, but early adoption is extremely expensive. Without help to disrupt the market (legislation) and heavy investment (subsidies) there is no incentive to change, in our capitalist society anyway. When profits are prioritized over environmental costs there can be no change.I don't know that they will be the cheapest after the development is done on other tech. Especially if we stop subsidizing fossil fuels as well
Hydrogen fuel in CA is reported to be around $5/gal FWIW.It would lead to the cheapest which would be fossil fuels which is how we got to this position anyway.
Aye, there's the rub. The full costs of fossil fuels need to be tallied to level the playing field. That includes environmental and human health costs.When profits are prioritized over environmental costs there can be no change.
The Tesla Model X Performance is $109,000, without subsidies or Tesla financing. You need to dig like heck to find that number, though, they really try to hide it behind a lot of ”with assumed subsidies” claims.Most appear to fall in the $45-85k range.
We also have two Teslas in the family, and I’ve been chided for still buying gassers. My reasons are primarily price/value and dealer convenience. The Tesla owners have both argued that a Tesla “shouldn’t” need the same level of maintenance as my ICE’s, making the distance to the dealership a non-issue, but then both admitted to having to take them back to the dealer for bug fixes or upgrades at least 2x per year. Meanwhile my 4 and 5 year old ICE cars have each only had to visit the dealer once for a safety recall.I'll pass on all of them. Not at all interested. Cousin has a Tesla AWD SUV. $120 grand toaster.
I see with ALL of them, no price (even a suggested price) is listed.
The first year or 36,000 miles for an ICE vehicle are usually cheap, but if one follows the normal service schedule then costs often will be higher. Of course it depends on the terrain and usage, but one can expect to replace filters (oil and air) several times. As noted, brakes don't last 120k miles on ICE cars, but they can on EVs. Many cars need a timing belt replacement during the first 100k. Fluid changes for antifreeze, brakes and transmission are generally recommended too. And then there are the parts replacements when the mechanic tells you - while we-are-at-it, we recommend xxxxx (things like replace the water pump, belts, etc.). Spark plugs are often replaced by 70k miles. No matter how one looks at it, ICE vehicles are more complex and more expensive to maintain over a 120K/10 yr period.The supposed maintenance argument is bogus, IMO. Other than an oil change, which I can do in 20 minutes in my own driveway, most ICE’s don’t need a lick of maintenance outside of tires and brakes up to 120k miles. Meanwhile, it seems most EV customers I know are visiting their dealers a few times per year for unplanned recall or upgrade issues.
I do. Coolant, even if extended life is only good for 5 years and I keep my vehicles a lot longer than that and brake fluid, unless you live in the desert, needs to be changed (flushed out) every couple years because it absorbs moisture. Don't Tesla use a glycol based coolant to cool the battery pack? It needs to be renewed too.Other than the brakes, I’m just not seeing that, in my own vehicles. ICEs and EVs consume tires at the same rate. Oil and filters are too cheap to even discuss, and nobody actually changes coolant or brake fluid. Most timing belts are at 120k today, often beyond, this ain’t 1990.
Brakes are the one legit maintenance item, which wear much quicker on the ICE. That’s not enough to make up for the four extra trips a family member had to make to the closest Tesla dealer inside of 18 months, for various big fixes and updates.
Agreed. But ask your neighbors and co-workers when they last changed their brake fluid, and 99.9% of them will just return a blank stare. It’s not a point of contention in this debate though, the same people who do/don’t change their brake fluid in an ICE will be the same people who do/don’t change their brake fluid in an EV. So, it is not a point of comparison.Uhhh, you have to change brake fluid in everything. Brake fluid is hygroscopic and will build up water over time, like a few percent every year. As a result this lowers the average boiling point for the brake fluid and will result in brake failure, rust, or other damage if not changed every few years.