Why a cord is such a difficult cancept

[mtarbert]

Can Someone (anyone) tell me why the concept of a Cord of wood is such a difficult measurment to understand.
A gallon of milk or gas isn't a hard measurment but, a Cord of Firewood causes so many differnt outcomes.
Sure the guy selling the wood wants to give as little wood as a customer is willing accept but,a cord is 128cubic feet.
Could someone help me out here?
Mike T

 

[They Call Me Pete]

Last time I checked 4x4x8 is a cord but don't forget some sell a face cord. Correct me if I'm wrong though

 

[ericjeeper]

3 rows of sixteen inch long wood ... But who cuts firewood 16 inches long? I always cut mine 20 inches.. So we sell a rick.... Which is a better deal.

 

[Lignums]

I cut mine 12", so I get 4 stacks 8 feet long.

 

[TMonter]

3 rows of sixteen inch long wood ... But who cuts firewood 16 inches long?

Lots of people actually. 20 inch wood is far less common because many stoves do not accept logs that long.

Just remember a cord is 128 cuft neatly stacked. Just measure L x W x H.

An 8' Pickup bed stacked 4' high with a few extra pieces to cover wheel wells is basically a cord.

 

[swestall]

I think everyone knows its 4x4x8. SOME Sellers have a picture of that being smaller, SOME buyers of it being larger, the one who has to stack it sees it a definately larger, when you burn it it seems a lot smaller but in the end it is what it is.....

 

[webbie]

128 cubic feet of spaced and stacked wood - which in reality should equal about 80-85 SOLID cubic feet of wood if there was no air between it.

 

[Harley]

Not to beat it to death... no not a difficult concept in theory - a stack measuring 4X4X8, or 128 cubic feet. You can certainly cut it down depending on how it is stacked.

Here, in MA, anyway, I believe they frown on advertising selling wood bt the "cord", but have pushed toward selling by cubic feet. I think that casused more problems, and leaves a lot more leeway to those who might sell it based on scooping a pile of loose wood up in a buckect loader, and using that as the basis of measuring the load to deliver.

If you ran into a problem with the amount you got.... probably not much in the way of recourse for you, but the best way of buying would probably be from word of mouth as to which firewood sellers really deliver a true cord, versus a significant amount less due to the possibility of (for lack of a better term) "weasel wording" in how they might advertise.

 

[WALJ]

Hello, I been "lurking" on this forum for a couple of months now. Thought I had better introduce my self before you guys call "Dateline NBC" The Ohio Department of Agriculture has an interesting read on firewood sales. It is illegal to sell wood in any measurement other than a cord or fraction thereof. I pasted part of article. It is interesting to see what they define as "seasoned wood" 50% moisture! LOL. Bill

Avoid Getting Burned When Purchasing Firewood

REYNOLDSBURG (December 13, 2004) – Before Ohio consumers prepare to settle in next to a cozy fire this winter, they should prepare to save money and headaches by following basic wood buying tips -- including purchasing unit, moisture content and pests -- from the Ohio Department of Agriculture.

“Consumers should be sure they buy from a well-known and reliable dealer to avoid over-paying for wood,” warned Ohio Agriculture Director Fred L. Dailey. “Ohio law mandates that non-packaged firewood must be sold by the cord, or by fractions of a cord.”

Bulk firewood can also be purchased by weight, in ton measurements, if it is weighed on a certified scale. Any other unit of measurement, such as rick, rack, face cord, or truckload, is prohibited by law. “Truckload” portions vary from dealer to dealer and can be misleading to consumers, who often buy wood in order to cut their heating bills.

Consumers can avoid ambiguous measurements by purchasing wood by the cord, half-cord, or quarter-cord. A cord is 128 cubic feet. When a cord is properly stacked, it should be at least as large as a stack that is eight feet long by four feet high and four feet wide. When making the stack, the wood pieces must be placed parallel to each other in a compact manner. Consumers should contact the seller immediately if they do not receive the quantity purchased.

Buyers should understand basic firewood terms and rules to make sure the product meets what is being touted. If firewood is sold as “seasoned,” then it must have moisture content lower than 50 percent. Unseasoned wood produces only two-thirds of the heat of seasoned wood. In addition, if a seller claims the wood is a specific type, the delivered load must contain at least 90 percent of that species.

“Firewood sellers must provide buyers with a sales invoice with the name and address of the vendor and purchaser, delivery date, cord or weight price, amount delivered and total cost,” said Dailey. “And consumers should always keep firewood receipts for their records.”

The agriculture department and 92 local weights and measures jurisdictions are responsible for enforcing Ohio's laws regulating firewood sales. If there is a problem with a firewood sale, and the seller will not correct the problem, contact the department's Division of Weights and Measures at 1-800-282-1955. A pamphlet titled How to Avoid Getting Burned When Buying Firewood is also available free of charge by calling the same toll-free number.

http://www.ohioagriculture.gov/weights/curr/news/wght-nr-purchasefirewood-121304.stm

 

[SlyFerret]

This may be the case, but I'm noticing that most of the guys on Craigslist Columbus haven't gotten this memo.

-SF

 

[DiscoInferno]

There really are fundamental problems with the cord as a unit of measure, including that it's not repeatable with any precision and changes through various processing stages. "Well stacked" is simply not an objective term. However, to paraphrase Churchill, a cord is the worst way to measure wood, except for all the others. Ideally we'd either pay by dry weight (minus water) or true (solid) wood volume, but there's no easy way to measure either. With honest people, of course, this wouldn't be such an issue.

 

[Kilted]

A cord of wood equals 128 cubic feet, 4'x4'x8'. You can take cubic feet and convert to cubic inches for 221,184 cubic inches.

A cubic foot is 1728 cubic inches 12"x12"x12".

So you have some one trying to sell you a funny sized stack. Get out your measuring stick and get the inches Length, Width, and Heigth. Lets say W-22", stacked H-60" by L-120" for 158,400 cubic inches / 1728 = 91.7 cubic feet. And 91.7/128 = .7161 and at $275 x .7161 per cord for oak in my neighborhood about, $197 worth of wood.

Very simple math I spelled it out for those who have never had to buy firewood. Doing the calculations this way you can measure a stack of wood on a dealers lot or measure your truck bed and know how much you are getting.

 

[SPED]

There really are fundamental problems with the cord as a unit of measure, including that it's not repeatable with any precision and changes through various processing stages. "Well stacked" is simply not an objective term. However, to paraphrase Churchill, a cord is the worst way to measure wood, except for all the others. Ideally we'd either pay by dry weight (minus water) or true (solid) wood volume, but there's no easy way to measure either. With honest people, of course, this wouldn't be such an issue.

Well said, in my experience it is the stacking that really throws everything off. First of all, as said above, it cannot be reliably repeated. Second, I've only once had firewood delivered that was stacked in the trailer/truck. While I appreciated this and it allowed to know exactly how much I was getting, I don't expect to see it again.

My usual delivery yearly is 3 green cords, but it comes in a big ol dump truck and it's not stacked. I've gotten anywhere from just over 2 cords to just under 3 cords with this(notice never over 3 cords ). I honestly don't think this guy is trying to rip me off, and the only reason I go back is it is always always good solid hardwood. BTW, the gentlemen who delivered it stacked a few weeks ago(didn't get my usual green delivery last year) gave me wood with nice maple on top and rotten oak all the way through which of course i didn't realize until after he was long gone, so the stacking was for his benefit . I would say in general, out of all the things I purchase, wood is by far the most stressful and least reliable commodity to purchase, maybe it's me.

 

[jbrown56]

Hi, 25 years ago I would buy log length or "grapple loads", try measuring that! After a few years I finally got tired of the mess all the time and switched to buying 4' lengths. In the late 90's, I found a local wood guy who uses a hydraulic shear to cut his wood to length and it really opens the ends up. Although I am two years ahead, I could use this wood the first winter if I had to. He delivers real good cord and is real consistant.

Jim

 

[backpack09]

"Massachusetts law specifically prohibits the terms "cord", "face cord", "pile" or "truckload" from being used in advertising the sale of cordwood or firewood."
http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=pressre...=ocapressrelease&prFile=05_12_01_firewood.xml
Measurements of firewood should be only discussed in cubic feet here in Massachusetts.

Now if they would only dictate what "seasoned" firewood is...

 

[burntime]

How can they measure it accurately when it can not even be spelled corectly? ;~)

 

[burntime]

Good one Pook! I can tell you that once you start burning for heat...if you have to pay for it, you will know its measurements by heart. If you scrounge, you will learn it as well, just slower...

 

[bokehman]

Wood is sold by the kilogram here. When you buy it it's already split. The guy has a splitter powered by his tractor. Take a moisture content meter along and you can break a piece open and test it. If they say it's ready to burn it's normally less than 25%. Main choices are: pine, almond, olive and carrasca (an evergreen oak) which is the dearest.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

A fellow goes to buy some firewood and asks how much it will cost.

Man selling firewood: "I have 3 prices; $125, $175 or $250.

The fellow asks, what is the difference? Is this the same wood?

Man selling firewood: "It is all oak and has been cut, split and stacked for 3 years. However, that stack of $125 wood; if a dog goes chasing a rabbit and the rabbit tries to escape, he can run through the wood pile and the dog can follow. That stack for $175, the rabbit can go through but the dog has to go around the pile. The one selling for $250, both the rabbit and dog have to go around."


Here in Michigan most folks just don't seem to know what a cord of wood is. They all just think it is a 4 x 8 stack (rick). I once cut a cord of birch for a fellow. He was a decent sort and didn't have a lot of dollars but really wanted the wood. Once I had it split and stacked, I called him and told him $90 for the full cord. To make a long story short, he would not buy even though he had committed to buying it. Seems I couldn't convince him how much was in a cord and he was so mad he wouldn't listen. I ended up giving it to my neighbor for burning in his fireplace.

 

[biggins08]

"Massachusetts law specifically prohibits the terms "cord", "face cord", "pile" or "truckload" from being used in advertising the sale of cordwood or firewood."
http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=pressre...=ocapressrelease&prFile=05_12_01_firewood.xml
Measurements of firewood should be only discussed in cubic feet here in Massachusetts.

Now if they would only dictate what "seasoned" firewood is...

The mass link is great. Every advertisement in the springfield paper uses the term cord....

 

[elmoleaf]

Here's the section from Mass General Laws (when's the last time you saw kindling sold, let alone by the bushel?)
PART I. ADMINISTRATION OF THE GOVERNMENT


TITLE XV. REGULATION OF TRADE
CHAPTER 94. INSPECTION AND SALE OF FOOD, DRUGS AND VARIOUS ARTICLES
WOOD AND BARK
Chapter 94: Section 298. Sale of cordwood; dimensions; standard units of measure defined

Section 298. Cordwood sold or offered or exposed for sale shall be four feet in length. The term “firewood” shall be construed to mean and include wood cut to any lengths of less than four feet and more than eight inches. Cordwood and firewood shall be advertised, offered for sale and sold only in terms of cubic feet or cubic meters which will be construed as indicating the closely stacked cubic foot or cubic meter content to be delivered to the purchaser. The terms “cord”, “face cord”, “pile”, “truckload” or terms of similar import shall not be used in the advertising and sale of cordwood or firewood. The term “kindling wood” shall be construed to mean and include all split wood, edgings, clippings or other waste wood averaging eight inches in length. Except as provided by sections two hundred and forty-three and two hundred and forty-seven, the standard unit of measure for kindling wood shall be the bushel of two thousand one hundred and fifty and forty-two hundredths cubic inches.

 

[tkirk22]

Except as provided by sections two hundred and forty-three and two hundred and forty-seven, the standard unit of measure for kindling wood shall be the bushel of two thousand one hundred and fifty and forty-two hundredths cubic inches. [/i]

The taxes are high up there aren't they?

Is there a law for how many cubic inches of pickled peppers Peter Piper can pick?

 

[streeter69]

Can Someone (anyone) tell me why the concept of a Cord of wood is such a difficult measurment to understand.
A gallon of milk or gas isn't a hard measurment but, a Cord of Firewood causes so many differnt outcomes.
Sure the guy selling the wood wants to give as little wood as a customer is willing accept but,a cord is 128cubic feet.
Could someone help me out here?
Mike T

I am glad you brought it up. I had to buy wood last year and part of the winter before! What a JOKE! Talk to some people and they way, " I have an honest cord" and I ask a Full/proper cord? They show up in a short bed 1/2 ton truck stacked to roof. I asked the guy if there is another truck comming, He said this is a full cord?!?! I told him I would take it (I needed heat) for $300 but, told him I will mark of what a cord is and show him a proper cord. I ended up with @3/4 of a cord. He left dust he left so fast :lol:

That is just one guy.........Some people just don't understand. On a side note, I came home with a truck load of wood, neighbor came over and said "My GOD you must have 1 1/2 cord on there" I laughed and showed him what a cord actually is, he gulped and went home :-/

 

[Gooserider]

The problem is that cordwood is one of the few commodities that is significantly non-uniform... It varies in size and shape from one unit to the next, and is large enough that "consumer quantities" will get significantly different amounts depending on how it's stacked. Other goods are liquids, or act enough like liquids that you can measure them in a simple uniform sized container - or are solids of specified size and shape.

Wood packs in differently depending on how you stack it - think of it as being like Tetris - a good player will get a lot less volume out of the same load of wood. OTOH, the more you split a pile, the more room it will take. If you dry it, it will shrink slightly. There is no way to "compact" cordwood without destroying it's value - for instance you can't chip it into uniform particles...

Bottom line, there is NO good way that I can see to accurately determine the amount of wood in a given stack. Measuring cords seems to be the "least bad" approach, but even that is awkward at best.

I've been working with a local "wood guy" - he mostly caters to the "casual burner" market, selling relatively small amounts of wood at fairly high prices, but delivered and stacked. What he sells as "firewood" I'd call kindling, as he claims this is what the customers want - but we split it down to about 2" x 2" on average, with most being 16" long. When making a delivery, we carry it from the truck to where the customer wants it stacked in 2 bushel cloth baskets, and you can tell a BIG difference in a basket full of small splits vs. one full of large ones...

When I'm stacking into my wood sheds, I pack as tight as I can manage easily, but my boss stacks much more loosely on deliveries - typically he does a lot of alternating rows stacking, with three splits per row on the cross rows, and 4 across on the visible ends (He does most of the stacking, I haul the baskets back and forth from the truck...) Nominally a 1/2 face is 8 baskets, and a full face is 16, but frequently he manages to do it with fewer. I wouldn't be happy with that sort of setup, but the customers seem delighted.

Some ways I think selling by weight better, but then you get into moisture content issues, plus the fact that different varieties of wood have different weights per volume - A ton of oak will be a lot less volume than a ton of pine, and a ton of mixed woods could be even worse to figure. It's also a lot harder to verify in some ways...

Gooserider

 

[cbrodsky]

Avoid Getting Burned When Purchasing Firewood

REYNOLDSBURG (December 13, 2004) – Before Ohio consumers prepare to settle in next to a cozy fire this winter, they should prepare to save money and headaches by following basic wood buying tips -- including purchasing unit, moisture content and pests -- from the Ohio Department of Agriculture.

If firewood is sold as “seasoned,” then it must have moisture content lower than 50 percent.

http://www.ohioagriculture.gov/weights/curr/news/wght-nr-purchasefirewood-121304.stm

Well that explains a lot of these wet wood deliveries we hear about on here all the time

-Colin