Why so much hate over electric vehicles?

[peakbagger]

I have seen various reports that urban fleet operators that have transitioned to EVs have had very good payback although the "fly in the ointment" has been Tesla parts and support. The usual reports are that it takes a while to sort out the quality issues that got shipped with the car and from then on, their maintenance and operating costs plummet. They dont have to worry about the charging aspect as they charge them at the yard and dispatch them so that they are back at the yard before they need a charge.

Its not that Tesla has a great EV business model, its that the legacy companies seem to be intentionally doing a half assed job. I dont think the legacy automakers would get away with the Tesla approach of letting the buyers be the product testers, fan boys might accept that but a typical car buyer would not.

 

[clancey]

I have a friend who was visited by another friend over the holidays and they owned a electric vehicle a smaller type of car but very streamlined and beautiful and at their home they charge their car and just drive it on shorter trips for the wintertime can be rough on batteries and the info structure has a lot to be desired on longer trips. With encouragement they actually let me drive it around the block---what beautiful driving and it was so so quiet and smooth...It's out of my computer range here--lol---lots of different gadgets but they sat at my side and helped me....These cars are the future but I believe people should leave the market decide on them and not mandate them as different states are on the path to do and there is real space for gas vehicles for they are making them much more cleaner and much easier for the vehicle owner to repair and much cheaper as well.., also the economy benefits with the different parts that these gas powered ones will buy in the future. There are a lot of electric vehicles sitting on lots because most people can not afford them even with the rebates...My other friend was going to buy one that was used but the battery needed replacement and that replacement part was 16,000 dollars--wow...They are just wonderful for in town shopping with your own charging system but not for long distance driving especially in winter conditions but the charging system in houses can be a real drag on the electric power grids in the assorted cities and it takes a long time to charge them up as well as the authorities having complete control over your car and if they want to shut it down they can in the future--no privacy here and no control as well...I say let the market be the judge for most people cannot afford them losing their freedom to drive to different places and will be bunched up in commercial electric vehicles with lots of other people having to use these as well...It's not my future and I believe that I have been very fortunate but there are much more days ahead with changes that truly takes our decision making and independence away.. old clancey

 

[bholler]

I have a friend who was visited by another friend over the holidays and they owned a electric vehicle a smaller type of car but very streamlined and beautiful and at their home they charge their car and just drive it on shorter trips for the wintertime can be rough on batteries and the info structure has a lot to be desired on longer trips. With encouragement they actually let me drive it around the block---what beautiful driving and it was so so quiet and smooth...It's out of my computer range here--lol---lots of different gadgets but they sat at my side and helped me....These cars are the future but I believe people should leave the market decide on them and not mandate them as different states are on the path to do and there is real space for gas vehicles for they are making them much more cleaner and much easier for the vehicle owner to repair and much cheaper as well.., also the economy benefits with the different parts that these gas powered ones will buy in the future. There are a lot of electric vehicles sitting on lots because most people can not afford them even with the rebates...My other friend was going to buy one that was used but the battery needed replacement and that replacement part was 16,000 dollars--wow...They are just wonderful for in town shopping with your own charging system but not for long distance driving especially in winter conditions but the charging system in houses can be a real drag on the electric power grids in the assorted cities and it takes a long time to charge them up as well as the authorities having complete control over your car and if they want to shut it down they can in the future--no privacy here and no control as well...I say let the market be the judge for most people cannot afford them losing their freedom to drive to different places and will be bunched up in commercial electric vehicles with lots of other people having to use these as well...It's not my future and I believe that I have been very fortunate but there are much more days ahead with changes that truly takes our decision making and independence away.. old clancey

How exactly will electric vehicles take away freedom? Also you do know that it's just as easy for the authorities to have complete control of gas vehicles as well right?

 

[clancey]

Because the authorities through AI can shut the car off anytime that they desire...clancey

 

[sloeffle]

Because the authorities through AI can shut the car off anytime that they desire...clancey

That’s not true.

If they did it, it wouldn’t be through AI. Generative AI is currently being used for things like chat bots, writing articles, things like that ( someone posted a AI written article on hearth recently ). It hasn’t taken over the world like the conspiracy theorists want you to believe.

 

[begreen]

Like Deja Vu all over again. The legacy carmakers kept beating the dead horse back in the early 70's putting band aids on carbureted V8's wanting the gov't to block out imports and not impose CAFE regulations. Now the import EV's will take over the market and the legacy makers will want help.

Yes, American car of the late 70s and early 80s when the Arab oil embargo took affect were pathetic. They tried stuffing poor quality 4 cylinder engines into 3500 pound barges. My mom had one and it was not only rediculously anemic, the engine was so overworked and the transmission so poorly matched, that it spent most of the time in the shop. Meanwhile, Honda introduces the sophisticated CVCC engine in the Civic and the Accord and had runaway successes. Toyota and Datsun followed and soon racing circuits were racing Datsun 510s and 240Zs. This happened within a few years. I suspect the same thing will happen as soon as BYD, Geely, or NIO sells cars here. It is already starting to happen in Europe.

 

[begreen]

That’s not true.

If they did it, it wouldn’t be through AI. Generative AI is currently being used for things like chat bots, writing articles, things like that ( someone posted a AI written article on hearth recently ). It hasn’t taken over the world like the conspiracy theorists want you to believe.

Agreed. AI has nothing to do with that ability. Any car that has wireless software updates has the potential to be bricked.

 

[EbS-P]

The legacy makers are not transitioning because of govt CAFE regs, or a threat of a ICE ban in 2035 in a couple states. They are transitioning because sales of ICE vehicles (globally) have been falling since 2018, other major markets (China and EU) are already close to 50% EV market share, and they are looking at bankruptcy in a few years if they don't switch ASAP.

In the US, you are not seeing a failure of EV adoption (which is still growing rapidly), you are seeing a failure of Ford and GM to build market viable EV products. Tesla, VW and Kia do not have huge inventory on their lots, they are selling.

This and this and some really smart guy that keeps saying dumb stuff with initials EM. Imagine if someone of the Steve Jobs temperament were in charge instead of him. Imagine if the CEOs of the big three were only concerned about making a decent new product instead of keeping a century old business model viable. Change is hard the changes coming in the next 15 years will be nothing like the changes experienced in the last 299.

 

[Eman85]

A lot of the info or reasoning against EV's sounds a lot like Y2K.
Just my opinion or reasoning about the drain on the power grid. If EV owners charge at home with slow chargers it would seem that the majority of charging would be done in off peak hours. The storage of the energy in the EV batteries would be making use of energy that normally wouldn't be used, the power plants are running but demand is low in off peak hours.
Gasoline powered vehicles that are easier to repair? I must have missed out on that memo.

 

[woodgeek]

...EM. Imagine if someone of the Steve Jobs temperament were in charge instead of him.

Jobs was widely considered an ogre by the people who worked for him.

I remain unconvinced that any self made billionaire is a person that I would like to be friends with. I still think that Jobs, Gates, Ford, Edison, etc are/were all absolutely horrible people. They vary a bit in the amount of PR they did, hagiographies they paid to have written, and the philanthropy they did at the end of their lives.

Elon does little PR, no charity and tweets his bathroom trips. As far as I can tell, his politics are very similar to that of Ford and Edison in their days.

 

[Garbanzo62]

How are they being shoved down our throats?

CA has a regulation that no new Internal combustion vehicle can be sold in the State in like 2034. CT was thinking of doing the same thing. there are a handful of states that have laws linking themselves to CA's environmental regulations. THAT IS HOW

 

[woodgeek]

CA has a regulation that no new Internal combustion vehicle can be sold in the State in like 2034. CT was thinking of doing the same thing. there are a handful of states that have laws linking themselves to CA's environmental regulations. THAT IS HOW

Its 2035. Do you think all the car makers are switching to EVs, and people are buying them, because a few US states (representing a few percent of global car sales) are merely threatening to ban ICE cars 11 years from now?

Why don't they all just call California's bluff... not make any EVs for the next 11 years, and then watch CA and others delay the ban bc there are no alternatives?

 

[Garbanzo62]

I have no problem with electric vehicles. I have a problem with Gov't subsidies attempting to make them 'Affordable' and with new emissions standards that make it practically impossible to continue with Internal combustion engines. The free market should dictate what is built and sold. And if you are praying at the Climate Change Alter, your energies should be directed at the biggest polluters. China and India. A new COAL fired plant comes online like every two weeks in China. We should put a additional 10% tariff on all goods coming from China for each additional 200 Megawatts of coal fired power generation.

 

[Garbanzo62]

Its 2035. Do you think all the car makers are switching to EVs, and people are buying them, because a few US states (representing a few percent of global car sales) are merely threatening to ban ICE cars 11 years from now?

Why don't they all just call California's bluff... not make any EVs for the next 11 years, and then watch CA and others delay the ban bc there are no alternatives?

It is too big of a market. They would not want to give up that much market share to existing EV companies

 

[begreen]

CA has a regulation that no new Internal combustion vehicle can be sold in the State in like 2034. CT was thinking of doing the same thing. there are a handful of states that have laws linking themselves to CA's environmental regulations. THAT IS HOW

Not quite. Like other states, hybrids are included. Also, this just means new car sales. By 10 yrs from now this will be a moot point.

Can I still drive my gasoline car after 2035?​

Yes. California is only requiring that all NEW cars sold in 2035 and beyond are zero-emission vehicles which includes battery electric vehicles, plug-in hybrid electric vehicles and fuel cell electric vehicles. Gasoline cars can still be driven in California, registered with the California Department of Motor Vehicles and sold as a used car to a new owner.

Cars and Light-Trucks are Going Zero - Frequently Asked Questions | California Air Resources Board

Visit the Advanced Clean Cars II web site for more information on the regulations.

ww2.arb.ca.gov

 

[woodgeek]

It is too big of a market. They would not want to give up that much market share to existing EV companies

I guess my opinion is that several of the legacy car makers will be bankrupt from being outcompeted BEFORE the California 'ban' may be enacted.

 

[NHWS]

Imagine if someone of the Steve Jobs temperament were in charge instead of him.

If Steve Jobs was still alive and was a major player in EVs, you would not be able to change the windshield wipers yourself without voiding the car's warranty.

 

[begreen]

I guess my opinion is that several of the legacy car makers will be bankrupt from being outcompeted BEFORE the California 'ban' may be enacted.

It's not a total ban, hybrids are still permitted, like NY, WA, etc,

 

[NHWS]

I guess my opinion is that several of the legacy car makers will be bankrupt from being outcompeted BEFORE the California 'ban' may be enacted.

Or they don't spend money on tech that would disrupt their current business, and expect to get "too big to fail" bailouts later.

 

[EbS-P]

Jobs was widely considered an ogre by the people who worked for him.

I remain unconvinced that any self made billionaire is a person that I would like to be friends with. I still think that Jobs, Gates, Ford, Edison, etc are/were all absolutely horrible people. They vary a bit in the amount of PR they did, hagiographies they paid to have written, and the philanthropy they did at the end of their lives.

Elon does little PR, no charity and tweets his bathroom trips. As far as I can tell, his politics are very similar to that of Ford and Edison in their days.

All true but Jobs’ image at the time helped sell the products.

If Steve Jobs was still alive and was a major player in EVs, you would not be able to change the windshield wipers yourself without voiding the car's warranty.

yeah…yeah but I’ve swapped more Apple batteries than I care to remember never had a new Apple product defective during warranty period. And that was a reason to hate Apple but they overcame that. And now sell replacement parts to the consumer

 

[woodgeek]

Or they don't spend money on tech that would disrupt their current business, and expect to get "too big to fail" bailouts later.

It is interesting to note that the US govt is not allowing the import of cheap Chinese EVs yet, while the EU is. Protectionism at its finest, but it probably can't hold forever.

 

[bholler]

I have no problem with electric vehicles. I have a problem with Gov't subsidies attempting to make them 'Affordable' and with new emissions standards that make it practically impossible to continue with Internal combustion engines. The free market should dictate what is built and sold. And if you are praying at the Climate Change Alter, your energies should be directed at the biggest polluters. China and India. A new COAL fired plant comes online like every two weeks in China. We should put a additional 10% tariff on all goods coming from China for each additional 200 Megawatts of coal fired power generation.

Do you feel the same way about all the subsidies given to the oil and gas industry?

 

[kennyp2339]

I'm not completely sold on the charging times if your plans to travel are above the batteries storage capacity, it doesnt sit well with me. I'm also not completely sold on having all travel electrified since large geographic area's can experience power outages, stranding the mass population, ie: Florida after a hurricane, California during wildfire season, NE from a large snow / ice event, Texas with its closed looped grid.
Maybe its a fear of the unknown because I'm use to something else (ice) or maybe the voice of electric is far louder then the carbon users because the carbon users are out traveling / working and dont have time to make they're voice heard.

 

[begreen]

I'm not completely sold on the charging times if your plans to travel are above the batteries storage capacity, it doesnt sit well with me. I'm also not completely sold on having all travel electrified since large geographic area's can experience power outages, stranding the mass population, ie: Florida after a hurricane, California during wildfire season, NE from a large snow / ice event, Texas with its closed looped grid.
Maybe its a fear of the unknown because I'm use to something else (ice) or maybe the voice of electric is far louder then the carbon users because the carbon users are out traveling / working and dont have time to make they're voice heard.

Good points. These are additional reasons why hybrids make sense for the next decade. The new regs take this into account. Over time things will change and improve. Batteries will get more robust and charging faster and more ubiquitous. Grids will become more distributed and less vulnerable.

 

[Garbanzo62]

Do you feel the same way about all the subsidies given to the oil and gas industry?

Generally yes. Some subsidies are necessary to keep vital industries in the US for national security reasons. Those are the only ones that I can see as being necessary