Wood gun Operation questions

[redryder2006]

Hi all.

So my AHS wood gun e140 has been running since November and keeping the house warm but I have a few questions, or maybe looking for some advice or experience from other users.

First is the creasote that is created. The boiler is vented to a 6" single wall stainless pipe then to a approx 35" stainless liner in a interior masonry chimney. All the joints are sealed with high temp sealant. I noticed some creosote forming on the outside of the chimney in early December and attributed to loading the boiler with wood that had been rained on and loaded wet with a high moisture content. I have since been bringing in about two weeks of wood at a time. Most are large splits with about 20%mc average. I shut the boiler down for a day and pulled apart the flue and found a considerable amount of creasote (light fluffy, not thick tar type) build up in the flue. I swept the rest of the chimney but from how this boiler was advertised and described is 2-3 mid season chimney cleanings normal?

If this is not normal I would my first guess would be an air leak somewhere allowing the fire to smolder. I adjusted the load door so that there is no creasote leaks during shut down. I don't seen any visible signs of leakage anywhere else. How do I know if an air leak is allowing the fire to smolder when the green light is off?

Other thought is since I could only fit an uninsulated liner in the masonary flue is that possibly the flue gasses are cooling too much. About the last 15feet of before the cap there is enough space that I could push some roxul or similar product down where the chimney exits the roof to insulate the pipe.

2nd it does create more visible smoke than I thought it would. on start up quite a bit less once it is hot and the refractory is up to temp. This is my first year burning with a boiler. My previous experience has been with older wood stoves that run wide open, hot, and create little to no smoke or creosote. (Barely ever needed to sweep the chimney) That being said I'm on par to burn about the same amount of wood this winter heating the whole house and my DHW as I had previously with space heating with the wood stove.

Thanks
Craig

 

[muncybob]

Other than in the firebox and the fresh air intake tube, the only place I have ever seen any creosote is at the final few feet of my 30+' exterior chimney. With an uninsulated single wall SS liner I guess there is not much I can do about that. Be sure to keep the air intake tube rim and the rubber type flap very clean. You could try insulating any exposed piping from the boiler to the chimney to keep flue temps a bit higher.
I agree, the WG does smoke more than I expected and advertised. Many times I see it is only steam but other times I'm glad I don't have any close neighbors. To me the few shortcomings of this boiler are offset by not needing storage, this saves some initial $$ but with that said I wish I had the space to have storage in the shoulder seasons.

 

[redryder2006]

I guess I should mention that the creosote build up was throughout the flue,even directly off the cyclone.

 

[muncybob]

That is odd on a unit only a few months old. You did buy it new? Only time I have ever had any problem in the cyclone area was due to heat exchanger and cyclone connection needing a good cleaning.

 

[redryder2006]

Yes brand new unit from AHS.

 

[redryder2006]

Do you seal the center refractory plug with cement?

Also this unit is heating a 2300sq ft house and our DHW, however due to an ongoing renovation we are only heating the first floor this year. Is it possible that I could be having this issue because off the heat load being too low for the 140?

 

[Fred61]

With the reduced load, are you still filling the firebox or have you adjusted the amount to reflect your load? Fresh, unburned (charred) wood produces a ton of moisture and creosote at idle without the intense heat to burn it and force it up the stack. If not I suggest you make smaller fires that will be mostly baked out by the time the unit goes to idle. Claims that Wood Gun doesn't need storage is a myth. They benefit from storage the same as Euro boilers. I can say my boiler doesn't need storage but I'm glad I have it.

 

[Buzz Saw]

I can say my boiler doesn't need storage but I'm glad I have it.

What boiler do you have?

P.S If you have it listed in your signature I can't see signatures using Tap-a-talk phone app.

 

[Fred61]

What boiler do you have?

P.S If you have it listed in your signature I can't see signatures using Tap-a-talk phone app.

I have an EKO 25. I had a Wood Gun 140 a few years back.

 

[Buzz Saw]

I have an EKO 25. I had a Wood Gun 140 a few years back.

What made you trade out the wood gun? I ask because right now the wood gun is my first choice and if there is something I should be leary of I would rather know sooner than later.

 

[Fred61]

What made you trade out the wood gun? I ask because right now the wood gun is my first choice and if there is something I should be leary of I would rather know sooner than later.

I don't want to list the problems here. After struggling with it for 8 years it finally became unusable and I had a junk dealer drag it on to his flatbed for a ride to the junk heap. When I start listing all the problems the folks with Wood Guns see it as bashing and become pretty unhappy with me. Let's just say that if you backed up to my door and offered me one for free, I wouldn't take it.

 

[muncybob]

I think if you do a search you will find that Fred's experiences are well documented here. While I do not dispute any of what he says he had happen to him I will say that I currently am in touch with several WG owners on a regular basis and while we have had some issues along the way, none of us had the situations Fred seemed to deal with on a continual basis. With that said, if I had the room for a min of 500 gallon storage and the room to fit a larger unit through the basement door would I buy a WG....I doubt it. There are units out there that the combined cost of the boiler & storage are in the ballpark of a WG.

Don't get me wrong, now that I have learned how to properly run my unit I am happy with it. I have very little smoke smell in my basement since I had the pipes welded( I have apprx 8' horizontal run from boiler to chimney) and any rubber type door seals replaced and my low wood consumption each year continues to amaze me.

 

[redryder2006]

I usually aim for 8-10hr burn times. I work 2nd shift so usually when I get home it is running and a hot bed of coals. I load it up with wood and shut the door. I usually hear it run for a few minutes get up to 180' then shut down. Maybe a half hour goes by and it starts up again runs for awhile then shuts down. When I get up in the morning it's usually a bed of coals again so I load it up with a small load, then load it again with a larger load before i leave for work.

If I'm home I have a habit of only putting in acouple splits at a time and checking on it every couple hours

 

[Fred61]

I usually aim for 8-10hr burn times. I work 2nd shift so usually when I get home it is running and a hot bed of coals. I load it up with wood and shut the door. I usually hear it run for a few minutes get up to 180' then shut down. Maybe a half hour goes by and it starts up again runs for awhile then shuts down. When I get up in the morning it's usually a bed of coals again so I load it up with a small load, then load it again with a larger load before i leave for work.

If I'm home I have a habit of only putting in acouple splits at a time and checking on it every couple hours

Of that 8 to 10 hour burn time perhaps half the time or more is idle time. If you load it up and burn for a half hour you are depositing tons of creosote in the burn chamber. You may think all potential air supply sources are sealed at shutdown but there's always some way for air to get in there causing gasses, moisture and all the other crap to go through the long, cold exhaust on your unit and condensing on the pipe. Sealing your pipes would stop room air from entering through the exhaust perhaps from a small amount of backdraft. (A theory that I've always thought about but never discussed here) That's the only place on the unit that doesn't have a provision for mechanical sealing.
Unfortunately it appears your schedule doesn't allow for any other burning regimen. When you add your full heating load things will improve but I can't tell you to what extent.

 

[redryder2006]

The flue pipes are sealed with high temp rtv but I agree that during idle time the flue could be cooling significantly due to winds or a small back draft. I guess I could get a thermometer and check the flue temp when it's running vs when it's idle. Or check the draft. Can excessive draft cause enough negative pressure in the burn chamber to increase air leakage?

All in all I've been happy with the unit so far. Keeps the wood in the basement and it's easy to operate. It also runs itself when I'm not home which is a plus. In the future I plan to build a detached workshop and put the boiler out there and the amount of radiant heat the unit produces will be nice to have in the winter months and should "increase" the heat load.

I have a soot eater and last time I cleaned the chimney all the build up swept out easily (seemed to be mostly ash) and only took me about 30min to complete so it's really not a big deal, I just didn't expect any build up at all with a gassifier.

 

[krinkov]

i own a woodgun 140 and heating 4k sq.feet never had these issues.bought it new.maybe call ahs.they are good to work with.i have no storage.

 

[redryder2006]

Wow. 4K sq feet. I've heard similar heat loads from other users. Must be too much idle time on my end. How often do you have to load your boiler heating that much sq footage? New construction? What's your location?

I have a 2300sq foot house built in the 1800's in CT. Some areas are insulated. A lot are not, or poorly done. Windows are older replacements that need to be replaced.

 

[muncybob]

Did AHS suggest the 140 for the 2300 sq ft? I'm heating about 2100 sq ft (about 50% well insulated and the rest not so good but low ceilings)with the E100 although I thought the 140 was needed. They told me(correctly so) to undersize the boiler esp when running w/o storage.

The "idle" debate has raged here for some time, esp when talking about the WG. I know that there is no way to totally avoid some idle when running w/o storage. Right at shut down there is a small amount of smoke that will linger out my 30+ ft. chimney for about 60 seconds. I have zero build up in my pipes other than ash. I do get more ash out of my chimney when I clean than I thought I should but again, with the exception of the last few feet zero creosote. So, with the small amount of idling it seems it's running as it should. The efficiency still surprises me too. Even in the coldest years since we've been running the WG I have never burned more than 4.75 cords and that includes DHW and keeping the house at 71. This has been a mild winter for us. We started burning mid November and we have gone through less than 2 cords.

It seems every situation is different though. There are some WG users that do have creosote problems, short cycling, excessive smoke and huffing situations. Over time we have identified most of the problems and pretty much resolved them.

 

[Fred61]

Wood Gun or any other boiler. Undersized is best unless you have storage and the best way to use storage is to batch burn and distribute heat from the tank. The trouble with sizing a boiler is temperature differences during the heating season like the shoulder seasons. At some point in time it will be oversized. There is only one good way to extinguish a fire and that is to take away the fuel like your fossil fuel boilers and pellet boilers. Shutting off the air which is what all these boilers do is the nastiest way to extinguish a fire. Would be even worse on oil and gas boilers Operators like Krinkov who are heating 4K sq ft have the best experiences with these units.

 

[redryder2006]

I plan on building an outdoor shop this year to house the boiler. Between doing the heat loss calculations for the house plus knowing that we would lose the radiant heat from the boiler as a contributing heat source was the reason I went with the 140 over the 100. I plan on checking the flue again this week. I'll take some pictures of what I find.

 

[CTFIRE]

Craig -
It takes a while to get dialed in on your house and the WG. Everyone has a little different experience. I have a 140 also. My biggest realization was cleaning the center tube. I like to rake that out 2 -3 times a week. I also use an epa plug. I alternate which side tube I block. The other thing is making sure you are gasifiing. Getting that inital coal bed and then loading approriately. You should hear a roar when gasifing. You also want to keep the furthermost nozzle clear of wood and ash so that fresh o2 can get into tube. If you aren't gassing you are getting incomplete combustition. What kind of smoke do you get at stake? If it is just water vapor (white smoke on real cold days) or invisible most of the time it is dialed in. My first year I used a lot of poplar that wasn't too dry and smoke a ton. Got a lot build up that year.
jason

 

[krinkov]

wood gun boilers are made to burn hot.the boiler does not like 50 degree days.i was going to buy the 180 wood gun but ahs talk me in to the 140.i am glad i took the advice.the only thing i do not like the loading swings to the right.very happy with the 140.

 

[pblormis]

Running e-100 for six years not all of that has been what i would call fun. Most of my problems were lack of knowing what i was doing. had help setting it up by good people that did not know what they were doing either that did not help. Bad wood keep me cleaning a lot. motor off and on to clean out the heat exchange. Wire brush on a drill works good. had it down to about 1/2 hr for cleaning out and motor back on. Now do that about once a year or if i have to replace a bearing Door gaskets leaking replace with rope center brick replacement 2 times now using fire brick till i get my own made. motor not once but 3 times new bearings. one day run great the next day creosote running down stove pipe and making a mess.learned a lot about how much to load and good wood has made all the diff. i now can look at my rain cap and know if it's running right if around the top is white all is good. i have a short flue pipe about 10 ft total. I will say this, there is no way i would want this setting in my house with all the ash that come out from cleaning tubes. The e-100 has been more than enough to heat my 2,700 ft house even in the coldest of temp that we ever had. Mine set's about a 125 ft from my house in a side building off my shop radiated heat from stove keeps my 1,200 ft shop some what warm. This summer plans are for storage,and new underground lines as my pex in drain pipe failed this year found leak but will replace with spray foam in trench.

 

[muncybob]

I agree, I would not want to have a WG inside my home unless I had the smoke hood.

 

[CTFIRE]

I have the smoke hood and pipe the air intake from the outisde. With the hood on any ash that gets airborne during cleaning gets sucked out