Wood stove purchase help

[eastcoastcanada]

Please reference this Federal EPA list for HHV values.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2013-08/documents/certifiedwood.pdf

I've seen this document. There are a lot of wood stoves on here with no efficiency ratings at all whichbis very puzzling. One thing stands out....BK has really low emmisions.

 

[VirginiaIron]

Are emissions related to efficiency? Do more emissions means less efficiency?

 

[bcrtops]

You VILL drink ze koolaid und follow ze lemmings over ze cliff....und you vill LIKE it!
Bear in mind that this is a long-term purchase. What may seem like a lot more money up front will be spread over many years of ownership. Remember the old saw..."The bitter taste of low quality remains, long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten."

Well................the Woodstock owners are pretty cultist too! Just not as many of them, so not quite as annoying!
I would not say that all the inexpensive stoves are of "low quality", either. Some of the simple designs will likely have less long term maintenance than the overly complicated expensive stoves.

 

[eastcoastcanada]

Are emissions related to efficiency? Do more emissions means less efficiency?

I'm pretty sure it would be. Essentially, any emmisions would be remaining unutilized fuel. There are lesser wood stoves on the market with emmisions near the top of the epa regulations at 3.6, 3.9 even 4.5 but they all have efficencies around 75% and 77% HHV.
Going back the the Quadrafire Mellenium wood stoves because I think it's an impressive non-catylatic stove...
The Quadrafire Mellenium 4300 is rated at 78.5% (LHV or HHV?) and a pretty impressive 1.1 g/hr exhaust.
A Timberwolf Economizer 2300 is rated at 83.9% (LHV or HHV?) but has emmisions around 2.8 g/hr.
There appears to be a 6% different between LHV and HHV so giving Quadrafire the advantage and assuming Timberwolf is using LHV to make the stove look better, that leaves the Timberwolf at 77.9%. That's only a 0.6% difference.
Keep in mind here, the 'famous' Blaze King 'King' is rated at 82% HHV but has emmisions of 1.76 g/hr. Other BK'S have 0.8 g/hr emmisions but are 75% HHV efficient. It appearS there is no direct relationship between emmisions and efficiency.

 

[bcrtops]

Are emissions related to efficiency? Do more emissions means less efficiency?

Yes.
However, the stove design often "gets in the way" of seeing a direct correlation, thereby being a general rule not an absolute rule (correlation).

E.g. Wittus "Twinfire" w/ 90+% efficiency & 2.4 gr./hr
vs.
Woodstock "Absolute" w/ 77% efficiency & 0.5 gr./hr.
(Does not appear to make sense = about stove design)

 

[VirginiaIron]

There are so many factors in deciding the correct heating device for the particular individual/family. I hope our decision is not fuelish over time.

 

[eastcoastcanada]

Also, with regards to the catylatic wood stove. My Blaze King dealer said that they can get fussy on warmer days because the flue temperature and outside temperature are closer. Quite often we have -10 degrees C and the very next morning it's 4 or 5 degrees C. He explained.....if you stoke it up for a 20, 30 or 40 hour burn (depending on model) it works great when it's cold and calm outside but when it gets warm the next day and gets breezy because of a southerly warm front, I will have to turn it up on high so it will draft properly but it wastes wood because it's warm outside and you don't need the intense heat. So if the price wasn't enough of a deterant, that was.

Is there an online source for Pacific Energy, Quadrafire or other premium brands? I just feel that the local dealers are gouging and if I can get that Quadrafire down $400 - $500, I would just get it.

 

[Squisher]

I meant no disrespect, really. Squisher, I may have only been here for a day or two but I've been walking for 40 years and I don't pay the ice cream guy $10 dollars more to add and extra soup of ice cream to a $5 icecream cone. I'm trying to make a purchase decision based on a budget of no more than $2500 Canadian. I found the LHV and HHV listings to be confusing and inconsistent but BKVP pointed out that HHV is the number I should be using to compare apples to apples. I appreciated that information and upon looking into it further, I noticed that at least the BK Sirocco 20 was no more efficient than the simalarly sized Nepoleon, Drolet or Century models I was considering. I'm sure BK is a very good company, the local dealer praised them for their customer support but why would I spend $2200 more on a stove just because I can turn it down so low the fire lasts twice as long but gives out half the heat while doing so?
As mentioned earlier, I have a newer home and I only want to offset my heating costs on the coldest days & nights but I also want to see the fire. Last I checked, a BK turned way down low for max burn time, was not that appealing to stare at.
I'm really sorry I've struck a cord with some of you here but I believe I have made my decision in regards to BK wood stoves. They are simply out of my budget and not on my radar, there are too many great alternatives out there for significantly less money. When I opted not to purchase a Honda snowblower last year, it was not because I didn't have any respect for Honda as a brand. It was simply because I believed that a Yamaha snowblower could do just as good a job for significantly less investment. The same rules apply to all purchases, even wood stoves.

That's cool. I didn't mean to sound so harsh when I re-read. I just took exception to you saying BK's were 200-250% overpriced. Seemed flippant to me was all. And I get not wanting a cat I made that call myself. I kind of stood up and shouted a bit earlier too when a BK was being brought forward as 'the only smart choice'. I don't like bashing of either side of the coin. Part of the beauty of woodstoves, there's lots of them, and lots of different people, and lots of different homes. The right stove for any given situation is the one that works for that particular purchaser.

I would disagree that 'the same rules apply to all purchases'. Different purchases require the consideration of different factors. Therefore different rules.

The biggest factor in efficiency is going to be how the stove is set up and run and what quality of fuel is stuffed in it. Don't get hung up on a percentage point here or there that may never actually affect anything in a real world setting.

I wish you well with whatever stove you end up with. The beauty of wood heat can't be beat. That's why I said way earlier I think you'd be happy with most any modern stove. I've been happy with wood heat my whole life and before last year I never had a modern appliance.

 

[VirginiaIron]

... Is there an online source for Pacific Energy, Quadrafire or other premium brands? I just feel that the local dealers are gouging and if I can get that Quadrafire down $400 - $500, I would just get it.

IMHO- A tight control on the product is probably how companies maintain their retail. There has to be something else of value to offer other than the product if you can go online and reduce your costs from a competitor or a big box store. For us, Lowes offered peace of mind where dealers can be fickle in the way they stand behind a product.

 

[VirginiaIron]

...Is there an online source for Pacific Energy....

Not to say I exhausted all avenues, but I could not find one that would be cheaper than purchasing locally. I looked at a PE Summit with chrome legs and accents from a dealer in VA. The stove was very attractive. The slightly used floor model was on sale for $250+- less than the new model. My observation indicated this slightly used floor model had a warped/damaged/deteriorated baffle that would have to be replaced. The sales representative seemed very knowledgeable about the product until I inquired about the failed/detached metal piece/panel; which assumably required replacement at an additional cost.

Intrigued by my observation, I wondered how much use a floor model could experience when there are about two dozen other floor models being used.

 

[Squisher]

Or why the baffle would be damaged? Improper set up or operation (as in severe overfiring) are the only reasons I could see causing it. I run my stove hot, and watch that big wide baffle like a hawk in my summit. No issue for me yet but only second year, but that's with 24/7 heating. A floor model being warped? I'd pass.

 

[Niko]

I know my stove is a cat stove, but i didnt start a cat vs none cat argument. My original and still biggest number one factor was and stil is burn times when buying a stove. It sucks that canada prices are way off but one would think they could find the correct price.

I dont know what low heat output is on everyone elses stoves but ill explain mine. My stove does not drope below 350 degrees for 24 hrs and this is with my stove lets say with 30-40 percent of its air open and less. I never run it above 500-600 stove top temps. The higher temps are when their is more wood so their more smoke, less temps are less wood. Sometimes ill adjust more air or less as the wood species and moisture willl factor that. Like i said before my house is 3,000 square feet with many rooms and to big living rooms one on each floor. My downstairs nevers see temps below 80 degrees. With some better insualtion and fixing all the air leaks (in attic) i wont have to run the stove even that hard so ill propably get 30-40 hrs on it.

The war of cat vs non vat was started way before my time and i dont really care much for it either. People draw assumption on others and thats fine i do also. Im of the boat greek 1st generation and my mother and father are stubborn people. Excellent well valued, honorable people, will help anyone time, but dont ever tell them their is something better or at least a way easier way to do it? They feel like a hard days work is the only way to work. i try to throw in efficientcy so i have time to do other things.

When it comes to wood i dont look at it( hard work or no work)that way as the stove is here to help me, not for me to help it. So that being said it helps me that i dont have to load it as much.

OP it seem its the budget that has you looking at others stoves. Have you exhausted all dealers options making sure you are getting the best prices? I am sure you can find a left over unit as the warmer season starts to come play.

 

[Squisher]

So why do you keep bringing up your experience with a stove in a thread where it's irrelevant?

You basically took a big swipe at all non BK owners earlier with your 'wow you load your stove 3-4 times a day comment' and then going on about how the BK is the only stove that 'makes sense'.

You've made your case. Why not let it lie?

Im glad your happy with your stove, I have no desire to try to convince you or anyone else otherwise.

Did you read any of the recent comments from the OP? It's not just budget that has him looking elsewhere, fireview is important to him, concerns over temperature fluctuations from freezing to positive temps causing output/chimney/draft issues is also a concern. No one stove works for everyone in every situation.

We are warming up a bit today from -16c overnight and looking towards a low tonight of -20 to -25. My summit will be pumping out the heat all day and most of the night to keep my home toasty warm.

 

[eastcoastcanada]

Not to say I exhausted all avenues, but I could not find one that would be cheaper than purchasing locally. I looked at a PE Summit with chrome legs and accents from a dealer in VA. The stove was very attractive. The slightly used floor model was on sale for $250+- less than the new model. My observation indicated this slightly used floor model had a warped/damaged/deteriorated baffle that would have to be replaced. The sales representative seemed very knowledgeable about the product until I inquired about the failed/detached metal piece/panel; which assumably required replacement at an additional cost.

Intrigued by my observation, I wondered how much use a floor model could experience when there are about two dozen other floor models being used.

That doesn't sound good. I would imagine the floor models are being run on low to avoid cooking the customers.

 

[bholler]

That doesn't sound good. I would imagine the floor models are being run on low to avoid cooking the customers.

There is nothing wrong with them being run on low but you would be loosing the warantee I am sure.

 

[Squisher]

Virginiairon had stated the baffle looked warped/deteriorated. That doesn't happen from running low.

 

[bholler]

And honestly I don't get why the dealer would be worried about changing outside temps bks with their automatic thermostat will deal with those swings better than most so I don't see that as a reason to avoid bk.

 

[eastcoastcanada]

I know my stove is a cat stove, but i didnt start a cat vs none cat argument. My original and still biggest number one factor was and stil is burn times when buying a stove. It sucks that canada prices are way off but one would think they could find the correct price.

I dont know what low heat output is on everyone elses stoves but ill explain mine. My stove does not drope below 350 degrees for 24 hrs and this is with my stove lets say with 30-40 percent of its air open and less. I never run it above 500-600 stove top temps. The higher temps are when their is more wood so their more smoke, less temps are less wood. Sometimes ill adjust more air or less as the wood species and moisture willl factor that. Like i said before my house is 3,000 square feet with many rooms and to big living rooms one on each floor. My downstairs nevers see temps below 80 degrees. With some better insualtion and fixing all the air leaks (in attic) i wont have to run the stove even that hard so ill propably get 30-40 hrs on it.

The war of cat vs non vat was started way before my time and i dont really care much for it either. People draw assumption on others and thats fine i do also. Im of the boat greek 1st generation and my mother and father are stubborn people. Excellent well valued, honorable people, will help anyone time, but dont ever tell them their is something better or at least a way easier way to do it? They feel like a hard days work is the only way to work. i try to throw in efficientcy so i have time to do other things.

When it comes to wood i dont look at it( hard work or no work)that way as the stove is here to help me, not for me to help it. So that being said it helps me that i dont have to load it as much.

OP it seem its the budget that has you looking at others stoves. Have you exhausted all dealers options making sure you are getting the best prices? I am sure you can find a left over unit as the warmer season starts to come play.

I've been keeping my eye open but no luck yet.

 

[Squisher]

I know my stove is a cat stove, but i didnt start a cat vs none cat argument. My original and still biggest number one factor was and stil is burn times when buying a stove. It sucks that canada prices are way off but one would think they could find the correct price.

I dont know what low heat output is on everyone elses stoves but ill explain mine. My stove does not drope below 350 degrees for 24 hrs and this is with my stove lets say with 30-40 percent of its air open and less. I never run it above 500-600 stove top temps. The higher temps are when their is more wood so their more smoke, less temps are less wood. Sometimes ill adjust more air or less as the wood species and moisture willl factor that. Like i said before my house is 3,000 square feet with many rooms and to big living rooms one on each floor. My downstairs nevers see temps below 80 degrees. With some better insualtion and fixing all the air leaks (in attic) i wont have to run the stove even that hard so ill propably get 30-40 hrs on it.

The war of cat vs non vat was started way before my time and i dont really care much for it either. People draw assumption on others and thats fine i do also. Im of the boat greek 1st generation and my mother and father are stubborn people. Excellent well valued, honorable people, will help anyone time, but dont ever tell them their is something better or at least a way easier way to do it? They feel like a hard days work is the only way to work. i try to throw in efficientcy so i have time to do other things.

When it comes to wood i dont look at it( hard work or no work)that way as the stove is here to help me, not for me to help it. So that being said it helps me that i dont have to load it as much.

OP it seem its the budget that has you looking at others stoves. Have you exhausted all dealers options making sure you are getting the best prices? I am sure you can find a left over unit as the warmer season starts to come play.

Niko. I was going to pm you but this has all been public so I'll leave this public too, whether appropriate or not I guess I'll find out.

You have my apologies if I mis-understood your intentions. To me it seemed an attempt to push one stove above them all and degrade the thread into a pointless cat vs non-cat debate. Again if I overreacted and misinterpreted your posting you have my sincerest apologies.

To the rest here at the Hearth I apologize too for my ranting.

And lastly to the OP my apologies too, you've been very patient and understanding of the disruption of your thread. Kudos to you.

Now like the new year, onwards and upwards.

Let's get back to finding the OP a great stove appropriate for their situation.

 

[Squisher]

And honestly I don't get why the dealer would be worried about changing outside temps bks with their automatic thermostat will deal with those swings better than most so I don't see that as a reason to avoid bk.

I think the concern was if it warmed up dramatically and the stove then damps itself back a bunch to not overheat for the setting, combined with a weakening of draft could lead to creosote issues? Shouldn't be an issue with proper wood I would think.

 

[eastcoastcanada]

So why do you keep bringing up your experience with a stove in a thread where it's irrelevant?

You basically took a big swipe at all non BK owners earlier with your 'wow you load your stove 3-4 times a day comment' and then going on about how the BK is the only stove that 'makes sense'.

You've made your case. Why not let it lie?

Im glad your happy with your stove, I have no desire to try to convince you or anyone else otherwise.

Did you read any of the recent comments from the OP? It's not just budget that has him looking elsewhere, fireview is important to him, concerns over temperature fluctuations from freezing to positive temps causing output/chimney/draft issues is also a concern. No one stove works for everyone in every situation.

We are warming up a bit today from -16c overnight and looking towards a low tonight of -20 to -25. My summit will be pumping out the heat all day and most of the night to keep my home toasty warm.

Geez, that's cold! I've never seen it go below -16C here on the east coast of NL but the wind almost never stops. Sustained 100 kph gusting to 120 kph 2 nights ago and not that uncommon. This is why I need something that runs pretty hot during a burn cycle.

 

[eastcoastcanada]

Niko. I was going to pm you but this has all been public so I'll leave this public too, whether appropriate or not I guess I'll find out.

You have my apologies if I mis-understood your intentions. To me it seemed an attempt to push one stove above them all and degrade the thread into a pointless cat vs non-cat debate. Again if I overreacted and misinterpreted your posting you have my sincerest apologies.

To the rest here at the Hearth I apologize too for my ranting.

And lastly to the OP my apologies too, you've been very patient and understanding of the disruption of your thread. Kudos to you.

Now like the new year, onwards and upwards.

Let's get back to finding the OP a great stove appropriate for their situation.

Thanks! My apologies also for confusing or angering anyone.
I value all the opinions here and the ranting back and forth has me fired up. Tomorrow I'm going back to all my local wood stove dealer to look for price cuts. You all have very valid points for the stoves you previously and currently own and I would be a fool not to listen. There are many fantastic wood stoves out there so let's see what happens.

 

[eastcoastcanada]

I think the concern was if it warmed up dramatically and the stove then damps itself back a bunch to not overheat for the setting, combined with a weakening of draft could lead to creosote issues? Shouldn't be an issue with proper wood I would think.

That's exactly what the dealer guy was talking about. On a regular basis, our temps can swing 20c, on occasion 25c and it blows all the time. He mentioned a weak draft when set on low with a dramatic temperature rise outside, not heat output.

 

[JA600L]

My best friend had a NC30 in his old house, he listened to me for 3 years brag about my BK (cult bragging) when he bought his new place he didn't even stove shop, he went strait to home depot and got another NC30, he said clearly the stove proved it self to him and that's all he needed, I kinda of agree to his method of thinking, its really a great work horse, heats his 2400 sqft center hall colonial from the living room / kitchen (attached open floor plan) perfectly , actually sometimes to good. As for the door latch on them, no issues with either of his nc30's. Its really a great stove even if your not on a budget. When I got to my next place I'm bringing the princess, but I also need to figure on a second stove, the Englander is on the top 5 stoves to consider.

I have no gripe with the stove, but as long as I have more money to spend I'm going to get something with a little more evened out burn characteristics. A hybrid or cat stove is what I will spend my money on.

 

[bholler]

That's exactly what the dealer guy was talking about. On a regular basis, our temps can swing 20c, on occasion 25c and it blows all the time. He mentioned a weak draft when set on low with a dramatic temperature rise outside, not heat output.

Yes but you would have that with any stove and a stove with an automatic thermostat would do a better job of dealing with that than a stove without one. I still dont see why he said it would be more of an issue with a bk.