Yet another newbie with unrealistic expectations looking for fireplace insert recommendations :-)

[e-stop]

Curious how close I can get to the perfect insert that magically handles a bunch of competing requirements. Have an existing masonry fireplace that never gets used for the usual safety/inefficiency reasons. The #1 purpose for the insert is "ambiance" so prioritizing the aesthetics of just not the fire itself but also the insert and it's surround (less surround is better). Also don't want to be limited on what I burn as it might include some paper, not fully seasoned wood, wood of various species, etc. But, could be nice to reduce my heating bill some with long/slow burns and using the insert in the shoulder-season, which in Northeast Ohio now sometimes occurs every 2-weeks Here's what I have:
- Fireplace is in a 12' wide x 8' deep inglenook that has an 8'x7' opening to the rest of the house.
- Fireplace opening is 36" wide by 29" high. Back of fireplace is 31" wide and 20" deep at the bottom tapering to 15" deep at the top. Masonry floor extends out 23" from the fireplace.
- Chimney is ~23' high and is constructed of 12"x12" flue tile.
- Distance from top of fireplace opening to combustible mantle molding is 14".
- House was built in 1938 and still has original single-pane, double-sash windows so plenty of combustion make-up air available
- Have access to a loading dock/forklift so purchased insert could be LTL'd from anywhere (not restricted to local brand availability).

The questions:
- What size flue liner and should it also be insulated?
- Insert recommendations? Willing to pay more for a larger insert that looks better, shows more fire and has a smaller surround but also don't want to be roasted out of the inglenook so needs to maybe slow-burn (or send extra heat up the chimney), but also show flame and burn not fully seasoned wood. Yeah, contradictions.....Dean

 

[kborndale]

You need a 6" liner and yes, insulate it. No modern stoves will do well burning unseasoned wood so if you can't burn seasoned wood than a modern stove will not work for you.

 

[Wisco Shepherd]

You have a nice big opening so you could put just about anything in there. Brands like Drolet, Pacific energy, Blaze King, Kuma, Lopi all have lots of respect here.

None will burn unseasoned wood well. If you want ambiance, heat, and modern day features you need good wood. If not, get a gas burning insert.

 

[stoveliker]

I think some (home made?) storm windows and the ambiance of the fireplace, as well as a flue blocking balloon (stuffed in the chimney when not using the fireplace to avoid warm air going up and out) might be the best bang for your buck, combining the ambiance,.and reduction of heating bill.

I second (third....) the dry wood remarks. It just won't work in modern inserts. And you're creating creosote in your flue that could burn your home down. Now that's a added cost to your heating bill. Nice big ambiance flames though...

 

[EbS-P]

At 29” high you probably want an insert. 2.0+ cu ft anything run hot will make the what near it warm after two hours of burning. With an insert you could just not use the blower very often.

You want an insulated liner.

 

[e-stop]

Thanks for the comments. Sorry about the late reply (was thinking I'd get an email reminding me to check-in). 6" insulated liner it is. Wouldn't ever be burning anything even close to green, just trying to avoid the hassle of making sure everything going in doesn't require checking for single-digit moisture content. Given my conflicting requirements (although they have different priorities so able to compromise), trying to decide if best to source an older no-cat insert or go with a hybrid insert that apparently works in both a slow rate burn mode and a high "nice visual fire" burn rate mode.

 

[stoveliker]

A cat stove can also burn high and has flames if one does so.

Single digit moisture (on a newly split, fresh inside surface) is not needed. Sub 20% is fine. But for oak that often means 3 year drying.
Maple and cherry 2 years. Pine, fir, 1 year.
Also, remember how much energy it takes to boil water? (Takes a long time on a cooking appliance). Burning wet wood will eat a significant fraction of the available BTUs to vaporize the water in it so it can go up the flue. Those BTUs won't heat your home.

Any stove (old or new) that gets wet wood would need to push much heat up the flue to keep it cleaner. I.e. more of your labor or more dollars if you buy wood.
To avoid risk, you still want dry wood, even if older inserts will burn wetter wood.
Once you have dry wood anyway, why not use a modern insert and save wood for the same BTUs...

I suggest a Drolet insert. Solid no nonsense quality, lower cost.
If it fits in the fireplace.

 

[e-stop]

Valid points, but efficiency is not my priority as I'm happy to simply have the 60% efficiency of a poorly fueled/running insert over the 10% efficiency (making a wild guess here) of an open fireplace. Having a nice fire to look at without needing to worry about making a fueling mistake that damages the insert or somehow makes it unusable/dangerous is the goal. Am I correct in assuming that a 6" insulated chimney liner is sufficient protection against a flue fire, meaning even if the flue fire happens it doesn't put the entire house at risk?

 

[stoveliker]

No, a liner is not sufficient.
Chimney fires happen because there is a lot of fuel (creosote) in the flue. And chimney fires draft like a tornado.
The result is that burning pieces will fly out the top.
Likely onto your asphalt shingles.

I would advise against gambling the lives of those who live with you (if any) and the value of your largest investment for the sake of wanting to have a fire while not wanting to put in the effort of providing the appropriate fuel for that fire.

 

[e-stop]

So the SS insulated liner and chimney would survive the high temps of a creosote fire? Slate roof will not be damaged by sparks and in Northeast Ohio not surrounded by ground fuels (unlike the West coast). Nearest neighbor is 1000' away. Trying to balance risks/rewards/laziness. Regardless, a flue fire is something to avoid.

 

[EbS-P]

So the SS insulated liner and chimney would survive the high temps of a creosote fire? Slate roof will not be damaged by sparks and in Northeast Ohio not surrounded by ground fuels (unlike the West coast). Nearest neighbor is 1000' away. Trying to balance risks/rewards/laziness. Regardless, a flue fire is something to avoid.

By survive the answer is yes if you mean they contain the fire now allowing it to spread outside of the chimney. Chances are good that a chimney fire will compromise the liner so it may not survive but the structure has a better chance of surviving.

A chimney fire is completely avoidable. I would say much more so than a kitchen grease fire. Insulate the liner, test your wood with a moisture meter at room temperature is a fresh split face, and only burn if it’s 20% mc or less, and monitored gas temps, sweep your chimney after the first cord or two to confirm all the above steps are resulting little to now creosote. Then sweep annually (or every other year if you determine that your build up warrants that choice. ).

 

[stoveliker]

By survive the answer is yes if you mean they contain the fire now allowing it to spread outside of the chimney. Chances are good that a chimney fire will compromise the liner so it may not survive but the structure has a better chance of surviving.

A chimney fire is completely avoidable. I would say much more so than a kitchen grease fire. Insulate the liner, test your wood with a moisture meter at room temperature is a fresh split face, and only burn if it’s 20% mc or less, and monitored gas temps, sweep your chimney after the first cord or two to confirm all the above steps are resulting little to now creosote. Then sweep annually (or every other year if you determine that your build up warrants that choice. ).

But the OP wants the not do all that, "balancing the risks" (to lives and property) by having a liner.

That me that is the same as going thru a red light because you have a seatbelt on.
The last resort (seatbelt or liner) is not a good argument to do stupid things....

 

[kborndale]

If your nearest neighbor is over 1000 feet away you should have no problem storing a few cords of wood to get a year ahead. Plus you mention laziness, if you use dry wood you burn much less wood so less processing wood and less reloads.

 

[Wisco Shepherd]

Maybe a pellet stove is more for you..........

 

[e-stop]

Not worried about processing more wood or more reloads. Just want to have an attractive fire maybe 2-3 times per week (compared to current zero times per week) but in a way that actually produces a net heat gain, creates a nice looking fire, can be done safely (I can just walk away if I want) and doesn't damage the insert. The requirement to keep a non-insert fireplace flue open until all coals are cool probably results in an overall net heat loss. I'm assuming pellets don't make an attractive fire. Besides, I have plenty of dead trees (ash, box elder, apple, etc.) so lots of fuel is already available. Just want a nice-looking insert (both regarding the fire and the flush mount insert itself) that's forgiving about the wood that goes in it. The insulated liner is an insurance policy, not an excuse to be negligent. I don't drive more dangerously just because I have auto insurance. But, I also don't drive at (or under) the speed limit simply because that is what's "recommended".

 

[gthomas785]

Wet wood also doesn't make a pretty fire, it just smolders...

 

[stoveliker]

Back to the original question.

If you want an old (smoke dragon) insert that can handle some wetter wood, I don't think you have a choice but for what's available near you. FB marketplace or so. I believe these would often not have windows... (I see more old freestanding stoves for sale than old inserts.)

If you want a modern insert, with a large window, you'll need drier wood.

I am not familiar enough with the insert market to know what would fit in the dimensions you have available.

 

[e-stop]

OK, sounds like some new batteries for my moisture meter. Given the dimensions listed and the desire to have a nice looking fire (possibly sacrificing efficiency), recommendations on a properly fueled insert? Is a hybrid the way to go?

 

[EbS-P]

OK, sounds like some new batteries for my moisture meter. Given the dimensions listed and the desire to have a nice looking fire (possibly sacrificing efficiency), recommendations on a properly fueled insert? Is a hybrid the way to go?

I’d stick with a secondary tube stove. Some even have fire screens that allow open door burning. (But must only ever get used once or twice and tossed into some junk storage box/pile/shed. )

 

[e-stop]

So apparently no to catalytic combustors if one wants a nicer looking fire. At the risk of changing the subject, hopefully my 20-year old non-probe moisture meter is sufficiently accurate and not just now a museum piece. Or do I really need a meter with some type of probe (built-in or corded)?

 

[EbS-P]

So apparently no to catalytic combustors if one wants a nicer looking fire. At the risk of changing the subject, hopefully my 20-year old non-probe moisture meter is sufficiently accurate and not just now a museum piece. Or do I really need a meter with some type of probe (built-in or corded)?

I think it should have probes but guess I don’t have any evidence to say otherwise.

 

[e-stop]

This one is designed to just have the back held against the wood, which works well enough with planed lumber but perhaps not so good for the rough surface of split fire wood. But, still maybe accurate enough to not burn the house down with a flue fire. Will do some testing....

 

[e-stop]

Then there's the whole "species adjustment table" stuff when using the meter. More fueling complexity I was hoping to avoid. According to the table, any reading of 10% or lower will mean a worst case of 15% moisture regardless of species, which I'm hoping is dry enough for modern inserts.

 

[mellow]

It really sounds more and more like a Pellet stove is more along the lines of what you want. You could put a freestanding one in front of the fireplace or get an insert. No shame in having one vs a wood stove if it fits your lifestyle.

 

[stoveliker]

I think the 10% reading -> 15% real is sufficient to see what you have.
What does the manual say about how close to the surface of the wood it should be?
I presume there are no metal contact pads on the back?

Do Google pellet stove images to look at if that fire has enough ambiance for you.
To me it would not, but taste is not uniform...

I would get a medium (2 cu ft) insert, Noncat or hybrid. You want to burn high enough to have nice flames. Cat stoves shine burning low but can burn high with flames.
Small because you can burn with more flame without providing do many BTUs that you'd need to move them into the whole home (otherwise roasting you out of the room).

If you have space left in the fireplace, use a surround.