My best guess is the Summit aint gonna work for me, been burning wood a long time so I kinda have a feel for this and the new EPA stoves are just not what I need for my application, the chimney draws very well and the wood is dry, for the life of me I can not figure out why it works so well for some people. Does not look like I can get the stove top up to a high temp with out the stack being too high. I could heat the house with the old stove in the time it takes me to fire the PE. Everthing inside the stoves looks like it is in place but have not taken it all apart yet, I wish I could send it back but that aint gonna happen so I am stuck with it for now.
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Oldspark, have you double checked to make sure the draft control is working properly? I ask because on some stoves the lever can work and feel like all is well but there can still be a connection that has came apart. Good luck.
oldspark said:
What is "to high" in referance to the flue temp? My only take on flue temps is keep it under 2100... :cheese:
Try not using a thermometer on your pipe, just on your stove top, or none at all. If you have decades of experience, I bet you can run that stove fine without looking at a thermometer. I honestly only have a flue thermometer because the shop gave me one, and when I put it on, it scratched the paint of the flue, so I left it there until I repaint this summer. I do pay some attention to the one on the top center stone, as that's where the manual says to measure.
The stove is brand new (3 fires) so ya I am jumping the gun here (bear with me 30 years with an old stove)
The lever is closing and opening up the hole underneath
Going by the temps on the thermometer where it turns to red about 500 degrees, I just assumed these were good guide lines to go by, no problem running it higher than that?
The lever is closing and opening up the hole underneath
Going by the temps on the thermometer where it turns to red about 500 degrees, I just assumed these were good guide lines to go by, no problem running it higher than that?
oldspark said:
Ya my PE didn't work for me either.My problem was the firebox was blazing but the thing threw very little heat.I was lucky to sell it and eventually ended up with a Blaze King King which I"m happy with.
Don't give up, you'll be fine. Once you figure out your process, it'll become second nature. The price for improved efficiency in an EPA stove is understanding the techniques. An older stove just fires up, but runs out sooner. Newer stoves need to reach operating temperature before they'll do their thing, but then they'll run for hours.
It took me a while to figure out that my stove needs to be HOT before it will do its thing. In warmer weather, I heat up a cold stove with a starter fire, kindling mostly, leaving the door open for first 10 or 15 minutes, then I load up with smaller splits and leave the door open until the firebox is full of flames. I close the door, leaving the air full open until I see secondaries, then start closing it down. In cold weather, the process is shortened, and I'm up and running in less than 30 minutes, in warm weather it can take longer to really get the draft moving and the firebox hot. After that, reloading is easier. Fill it up, let it get going for a few minutes with the door open, close door, wait, adjust draft a little at a time. Probably never closing it entirely.
I suspect you just need to let that thing rip a little more before you stuff it full, or start closing the air. Get it hot.
It took me a while to figure out that my stove needs to be HOT before it will do its thing. In warmer weather, I heat up a cold stove with a starter fire, kindling mostly, leaving the door open for first 10 or 15 minutes, then I load up with smaller splits and leave the door open until the firebox is full of flames. I close the door, leaving the air full open until I see secondaries, then start closing it down. In cold weather, the process is shortened, and I'm up and running in less than 30 minutes, in warm weather it can take longer to really get the draft moving and the firebox hot. After that, reloading is easier. Fill it up, let it get going for a few minutes with the door open, close door, wait, adjust draft a little at a time. Probably never closing it entirely.
I suspect you just need to let that thing rip a little more before you stuff it full, or start closing the air. Get it hot.
RichL/oldspark, the stove is not a radiator, it is a convector. If you are expecting hot sides radiating heat, it is not going to happen. There is an outer jacket on the sides that shields the heat and convects it upward and out the top. If the stove is running correctly, it is putting out btus, lots of them. It is not uncommon for someone who is used to an old steel box with no side shielding to think the stove is not getting hot. A stove top thermometer will cure that notion quickly. Put the flue thermometer on the stove top (not on the trivet, but on the actual stove top) and let us know what it is reading.
If you want to learn how to run the stove, post questions and information about what you are doing and seeing. In particular, describe what the air control settings are and at what point in the fire burning changes are made to the air setting and what the setting is. We need your eyes and words to let us know what you are experiencing.
Regarding flue temps, to answer that question we need to know how is the stove connected to the masonry chimney? Is it single wall pipe, up and into an elbow then a horiz. connector into the thimble? If yes, how long is the horizontal run from the flue to the thimble? Is the horiz. connector sloped uphill about 1/4" per foot?
If you want to learn how to run the stove, post questions and information about what you are doing and seeing. In particular, describe what the air control settings are and at what point in the fire burning changes are made to the air setting and what the setting is. We need your eyes and words to let us know what you are experiencing.
Regarding flue temps, to answer that question we need to know how is the stove connected to the masonry chimney? Is it single wall pipe, up and into an elbow then a horiz. connector into the thimble? If yes, how long is the horizontal run from the flue to the thimble? Is the horiz. connector sloped uphill about 1/4" per foot?
Oldspark, it may be that the stove is working fine but you just aren't used to/don't prefer the way it gives off heat. I downloaded a PDF of the operating manual to get some insight into your problem. Looking at the exploded diagram, I can't see anything obvious that would impede air flow through the stove. The flame path seems rather direct compare to some designs I've examined, and it it certainly a lot less convoluted than on my Vigilant with the bypass closed (which is then a 55" long serpentine horizontal pathway up to the flue), and I have no such air-restricted draft problems with mine. I did read this, which is something I think everyone with a firebrick-lined stove must learn to accept:
Total heat output may be quite high even thorough you never feel that initial blast of heat early on, especially with a convection stove. If you can live with a steady high BTU output with a claimed steady state 70% efficiency, the slow startup may not be so bothersome come cold weather.
Anyway, I feel for you. Tough time to be putting a new stove through its paces, and a long summer of it being on the back of your mind if you can't resolve the problems right now. It's tough when you know what you're doing and things don't work out the way you think they should. I haven't gone through a lot of stoves, but I've had plenty of tools that initially failed to live up to my expectations. Sometimes the tool just really sucks, but most times it's just operator unfamiliarity. A couple weeks ago I was at a woodworking show and I saw a small, high-quality Metabo 3 1/4" RO sander that I thought would be just the ticket for sanding the tight radii inside the canoes I work on. I could hardly wait the three short days it took to arrive, and when it did, I right away put on a medium disc and started to test in on my current project. The aggressive little bugger put some nasty gouges into the cedar ribs. No matter how fast or slow I went, or what orbiting speed I set on the tool, it kept doing the same thing. Then just when I was about to give up on the thing, I noticed a 1/2" soft backing pad in the box and put that in between the base pad and the sanding disc. Tamed that sucker right down. I can now lean right into an inside curve and sand in a minute what used to take me ten to do by hand.
Hope your problem gets resolved as easily.
Total heat output may be quite high even thorough you never feel that initial blast of heat early on, especially with a convection stove. If you can live with a steady high BTU output with a claimed steady state 70% efficiency, the slow startup may not be so bothersome come cold weather.
Anyway, I feel for you. Tough time to be putting a new stove through its paces, and a long summer of it being on the back of your mind if you can't resolve the problems right now. It's tough when you know what you're doing and things don't work out the way you think they should. I haven't gone through a lot of stoves, but I've had plenty of tools that initially failed to live up to my expectations. Sometimes the tool just really sucks, but most times it's just operator unfamiliarity. A couple weeks ago I was at a woodworking show and I saw a small, high-quality Metabo 3 1/4" RO sander that I thought would be just the ticket for sanding the tight radii inside the canoes I work on. I could hardly wait the three short days it took to arrive, and when it did, I right away put on a medium disc and started to test in on my current project. The aggressive little bugger put some nasty gouges into the cedar ribs. No matter how fast or slow I went, or what orbiting speed I set on the tool, it kept doing the same thing. Then just when I was about to give up on the thing, I noticed a 1/2" soft backing pad in the box and put that in between the base pad and the sanding disc. Tamed that sucker right down. I can now lean right into an inside curve and sand in a minute what used to take me ten to do by hand.
Hope your problem gets resolved as easily.
Good point, it takes a while to get 500# of stove hot, even more for the Alderlea series. The beauty of that is that when the fire has died down, that mass continues to convect a steady, gentle heat.
Before changing stoves, maybe read this thread:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/50601/P0/
Before changing stoves, maybe read this thread:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/50601/P0/
oldspark said:
How many fires did it take you to learn your old stove 30 years ago? There is always some trial and error with a new stove. I'm not a big fan of convection stoves either, it will have a different heat feel than your old steel stove but should heat your home just fine once you get use to it.
New EPA stove will run lower stack temps than the old stoves, it's a sign of higher efficiency. You could have stack temps as low as 300 while the stove top can be cruising around 600. I like to watch both stack and stove top temps, it tells me more of what's going on.
Trying to keep the facts straight forward as have been reading posts on here for a while and know what information you guys need.
single wall pipe and thermometer is 30 inches above stove, I only have about 3 ft of vertical pipe and a 90 and 1 foot of horz. and yes it has a slope (not sure it matters much on that short a piece.
Stove top thermometer is right on stove with trivet removed.
I did read a lot about this stove so I got an idea about the heat it gives off but still a little surprised on how it operates
Battenkiller nailed when he said I will have this in the back of my mind all summer as this is the only way I heat my house and I am gone for work part of the time and leaving the wife a stove that I am not sure of is unsettling to say the least, but I have the old stove and I can always put it back worse case.
I guess its time to start worrying about mowing the lawn, all wood is cut and stacked for next year so it is what it is.
single wall pipe and thermometer is 30 inches above stove, I only have about 3 ft of vertical pipe and a 90 and 1 foot of horz. and yes it has a slope (not sure it matters much on that short a piece.
Stove top thermometer is right on stove with trivet removed.
I did read a lot about this stove so I got an idea about the heat it gives off but still a little surprised on how it operates
Battenkiller nailed when he said I will have this in the back of my mind all summer as this is the only way I heat my house and I am gone for work part of the time and leaving the wife a stove that I am not sure of is unsettling to say the least, but I have the old stove and I can always put it back worse case.
I guess its time to start worrying about mowing the lawn, all wood is cut and stacked for next year so it is what it is.
Funny you should ask that as that stove was a no brainer, it almost ran it self for 30 years, I thought I wanted a convection stove but may be I was wrong, I wanted the steady heat as we put new windows in the house and it heats way easier than it used to, all winter long unless it was below zero or a strong south wind we let the wood burner go out ever night or it was too warm for sleeping so a steady heat is what I had in mind. Too few a fires to see the stack temp thing you mentioned as the stack was always warmer than the stove top.Todd said:
When I replaced the Castine with the T6 I had concerns at first as well. It was a springtime installation and I couldn't crank the stove hot enough, nor long enough to really appreciate its flexibility. It was only the next winter when we had a blizzard, temps in the teens and no power that I was able to feel the range of heat it can put out. I stoked it up with locust which really put out some warmth. The T6 definitely is a different experience than the Castine which was an E/W loader and more radiant. But this stove surely has grown on me. It's an easy winter starter that will happily run, filled to the gills at 650-700 stove top temps for hours, yet can be a tame pussycat in shoulder season burning at 450 with only 3 logs. Those are 10" splits in my avatar and the top was pushing 700 °F, yet I had no concerns about nearby walls and furniture overheating. Needless to say, the house was nice and cozy.
FWIW, my wife is not a wood stove vet and runs the stove on the feed it a stick or two at a time principle. No problem, I stoke the stove before leaving for work. She tends it during the day a stick or two at a time and I come home to a warm house 12 hrs later. When it burns down, I stoke it up again for the long burn overnight. The stove burns well either way.
FWIW, my wife is not a wood stove vet and runs the stove on the feed it a stick or two at a time principle. No problem, I stoke the stove before leaving for work. She tends it during the day a stick or two at a time and I come home to a warm house 12 hrs later. When it burns down, I stoke it up again for the long burn overnight. The stove burns well either way.
oldspark said:
I see, the thermometer is on the stove top. The heat ranges on the thermometer are designed for flue pipe operation which is assuming that the interior of the flue pipe will be 1.5 to 2x hotter than the surface reading. 500 degrees on the stove top is a long way from overfire. The heat ranges are not relevant for stove top use. For the Summit, 500 is a little above idle. The Summit stovetop can run all day at 700 and be fine. There is a huge difference in the btus given off by the stove when it is running at 650-700 vs 500 °F. Try it. I suspect you'll be opening some windows.
Sorry I am not being clear, I have two thermometers, one on stack and one on stove top, when the stack temp was at 500 or so the stove top was at 400 and I believe that was as high as I have had it with the smaller fires, the glass door was super hot even at that temp so I can imagine how much heat it will kick out at 700 stove top temp, you are making me feel a lot better about this and I thank you for that.
Post a pic or two if you can. I just started my hearth install today. Just threw up a wall in the basement and dry walled the area around where the stove will be. I will work on the tile work in a couple weeks as I am heading out of town for a bit. I will be keeping a close eye on this thread. Best of luck.
Not to hijack the thread but this seems to be a little bit of a theme this winter, previous radiant stove owner switches to a convective stove and is surprised/dismayed/disappointed/concerned about what the difference is. Since I am about to join the club (at least as soon as I recover from paying my wife's dental bill :bug: ), this concerns me too. I respect the opinion of those who have offered them and the concept of the convective stove makes sense in my application but I am concerned that I too will be disappointed in the difference. The only place I could find one that is functional is a Super 27 about 45 minutes away but not sure stopping by in April is going to tell me much.
The other question I have that I have heard both opinions on (yes, they are the same and no, they are different) is will the heat off of a Summit and Alderlea feel the same? Somehow, I can't get that Whorehouse Red Summit Classic out of my mind :cheese: .
The other question I have that I have heard both opinions on (yes, they are the same and no, they are different) is will the heat off of a Summit and Alderlea feel the same? Somehow, I can't get that Whorehouse Red Summit Classic out of my mind :cheese: .
BeGreen said:
And it's not only the mass of the brick, BG. The specific heat capacity of firebrick is more than twice that of steel or cast iron. Firebrick has a specific heat capacity of .25 BTU/lb ºF (steel is around .11) so a 4 pound brick takes 1 BTU to raise it 1º F, or 600 BTU to raise it 600ºF. Multiply that by the number of firebricks in your stove and you will see that there is an awful lot of heat needed to get that stove up to operating temp. Plus, the internal temp of the brick needs to be quite a bit higher than that to get the outside to 600º. Add in all the steel and, yeah... it's got to take some time.
Of course, this isn't lost heat, but you won't feel it in the room until the stove is on the downward side of the burn and is cooling off. Thankfully, you only pay the penalty when the stove is first coming to temp. After that, you will get every BTU that doesn't go up the flue delivered into the room in one way of another (convection and/or radiation), and ignition should be very rapid upon reload due to all the stored heat inside the firebox
Oldspark, your flue temps should be higher than your stove temps for quite a while as all that steel and brick is coming up to temp, but that's not such a bad thing. Helps keep the "plumbing" dry and clean, so to speak. After those secondaries kick in and you shut the air down, your flue temps should drop into a normal range. I don't know your stove and installation, but I'd think a 350ºF external temp on single wall pipe 30" up from the stove like you said should equate to at least 600-650º stove temp once things finally level off. If not, Summit is right and something is definitely off.
You do not think that is correct, the stack temp was higher during the whole burn with them both at about 400 at one time, this was a fairly small fire and yes I have the fan. Thermometers could not be accurate so I switched them around and will see if it changes. Should the stove top be higher than the stack during the whole burn?summit said:
I'm thinking the fires are too small to see this happen, I guess I should have built a bigger fire this morning.Battenkiller said:
I hear ya bro, I think it will be fine for me, my old stove was a , piece of cake to run, your cold, you throw paper kindling and wood it and walk away from it, come back check it and turn the air down if too hot, I could run that thing in my sleep. I was not ready for this learning curve and over reacted, look how much further along you will be after reading about my schizophrenia!wendell said:
oldspark said:
Likely so. Your break in should be done by now and the moisture gone from the brick (the specific heat capacity of water is 4 times that of firebrick). Get it ripping hot with a good load, open those windows and let the fresh air in. You just may be pleasantly surprised.
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