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Your opions on stove manufacturers

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by TAC_Double, Feb 14, 2008.

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  1. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    I hear what you're saying... Around here many electrical supply houses carry chinese and mexican made wirenuts, tape, fittings even wire! How they get the UL rating on some of these items I have no idea! The way I see it there is no fair trade with the USA.. Hardly any american products go to these countries.. It is destroying this country.. Save a little now pay a lot later!

    Ray

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  2. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    Craig,
    I hear what you're saying and I don't think HD or Lowes is a threat to stove dealers which I really enjoy because you can actually see a stove in operation.. That's something you'll never see at HD or Lowes but for some folks on a budget that are handy an Englander stove from HD or Lowes will serve them well from comments I have read here.. I like the looks of cast iron so my next stove will probably be from a Mom and Pop shop but I will look at Lowes and HD to be sure I am not missing a good value.. One thing I do enjoy at my local stove shop is just chatting to the people there because we have the same passion about alternative heating!

    Ray
  3. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    Mike,
    I think it's great that you participate here and offer a product for the masses at a reasonable cost.. I may never own an englander stove but I certainly would consider them in the decision making process.. Like I've said before, stoves are relatively simple and should not require lots of parts if they do then there is a design issue .. I'd be willing to bet that many stove problems would not exist if the stove purchaser simply read and understood the manual that came with the stove..

    Ray
  4. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    The "American made" idea is just another simplistic solution to a complex problem. The entire reason you HAVE products here made all over the world is because AMERICAN BUSINESS and AMERICAN GOVERNMENT want you to! So you are supporting American business by buying foreign products! Moreover, our country is 100% reliant on EXPORTING the good stuff we make to all over the world. Many of our major corporations do more business overseas than they do here. So - what? Is it a one way street? Can we reap the benefits (taxes, jobs, etc.) from OUR companies that export, but not allow other companies to make stuff and then import it?

    Then there is the whole issue of how many of us want our children to work on assembly lines, in paint shops and in founderies. I would bet that many, if not most, Americans would want their children to go further in life than some of the factory jobs out there. And maybe, just maybe, that is why only 15% of our economy is manufacturing now. I predict that this figure will never (or barely) rise. If that is the case, once again we are complaining about the sun coming up in the morning. Things are the way they are for a REASON.

    When our military gives multi-billion dollar contracts to airbus (last week) for large airplanes (tankers)...I think its time to realize these issues are a bit more complicated than we imagine. After all, our own airplane maker(s) (Boeing, etc.) make large parts and assemblies for their planes all over the world (including China).

    Anyway, my point is that the era of taking a sledgehammer to foreign cars in the parking lot is long over. GM is no more an "American" company than Toyota is a Japanese one. All of these companies are owned by the stockholders who are from all over the world.
  5. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    About 5 years ago I spent 11 days in Germany for training and found very little being sold there from China or Mexico.. The German machine I was training on was a state of the art printing press and they produced the vast majority of parts for this machine, even the circuit boards! They do however sell lots of things from other european countries particularly those on the Euro system.. I would consider this fair trade and a practice that USA should employ in our business dealings.. To outsource everything makes our country weaker and in the event of a war very vulnerable because we do not produce many things in this country.. Probably the most important thing we can do is produce most of our food and most of our energy in this country to remain strong.. Reliance on others is weak link in the chain and could lead to our downfall.. I feel americans are very capable of producing good quality parts right here in USA.. What good is a college degree when we are a nation of burger flippers? I think it's time to take back our country..

    Ray
  6. brooktrout

    brooktrout New Member

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    Craig, well said. If only more people understood this. Being in the car business (autobody), I hear comments everyday about this is junk, that's junk, buy american, never buy american, etc. I'm not saying I don't have my biased opinion about which car I'd like to work on all day every day if I could (Toyota, hands down), but the buy american mentality is way overblown and misused. This is a global economy, like it or not. Get with it or be left behind. It comes down to personal decisions made on a local level that really affects or daily lives.
  7. stoveguy13

    stoveguy13 Minister of Fire

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    Mike isnt the pellet stove epa exempt not epa certified i am unaware of any epa cert for a pellet stove?
  8. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Pellet stoves are EPA exempt and not required to be tested for certification but manufacturers can voluntarily have them tested and certified. England Stove Works as well as some other manufacturers have submitted stoves for certification testing and are listed on the EPA certified stove list.
  9. swestall

    swestall Minister of Fire

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    We live in North America and we should all do what we can to support rebuilding its place in the world. The present situation is that our "stock" has deteriorated within the world; and its economy. Because, we have been led down the garden path by individuals (politicians, businessmen, etc) who have not paid attention to the impact their decisions have on us (or them personally). They have gone for short term results and lined their pockets with the spoils of them never paying attention to the long term consequences. Meanwhile, the Chinese and other parts of the world are looking at long term strategies to gain the position we use to hold.
    Within two generations we have slipped significantly. If we do not remedy our ways within another two to four generations what was the greatest place on earth will be a memory.
    I don't have the solution, but can see the problem. I guess my great grandchildren are in deep trouble unless something changes. That is the only part of the current political debate that I really agree with. The leadership in this country needs to focus on this country and getting it back to good standing in the world by building its strenght. Currency, production, education, etc. Call it self centered, but my feeling is that we should focus on OUR COUNTRY, making it better, making it strong, let THEM focus on theirs. We give so much to the world, which takes and takes.
    If you really want to get upset, take a look at the commercials on TV; they represent what is being bought and sold here. All we see is a bunch people who are only interested in pop material things, dressed like who knows what and living for the moment.
    Folks, we are in deep, very deep indeed.
    Our dollars say, God Bless America; I only hope God Helps America for we seem not to be too focused on helping ourselves.
  10. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    Well said I fully agree....

    Ray
  11. bbc557ci

    bbc557ci New Member

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    Hiding behind a key board .........Hanko, I would have said the same thing to you if we were sitting on bar stools having a beer, or a JD :p It was just meant to be a little jab. Sorry if I offended you.

    I was in the construction trades for over 30 years and for the most I part agree with you about box stores. Overall, they suck. Only time me or my men would buy from a box store was if we were in a pinch. Regardless, it was the "you get what you pay for" line that kind of got to me (again, I mostly agree with you). It seemed to be directed towards Englander stoves. Now, Personally I know nothing about them but there are plenty of qualified people on this site who say the Englander stoves are a good product. And there is an Englander rep who frequents the site, who seems to be pretty supportive and helpful when an Englander owner needs help. Two months ago I spent allot more on a Pacific Energies T6, and do not know of a PE rep who visits this site.
  12. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    How's the T6 working out for you bbc557ci?
  13. Hiram Maxim

    Hiram Maxim Minister of Fire

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    I couldn't agree with you guys more. My Sister and her Husband work for Walmart at the World Headquarters in Bentonville, AR.
    Needless to say we don't see eye to eye. Being from Detroit I can tell you first hand that the U.S. is in big trouble. Many of my friends and family have lost their jobs to Foreign car companies. I buy American products when ever I can!

    If you want an Englander 30 why not purchase from overstockstoves.com? $799 shipped!

    I did so on the advise of Brother Bart and others here on this great website. (thanks Craig)

    Its priced way below any of the box stores and really all you need is a small trailer or pick-up truck to get the Stove from the shipping terminal. Take off the door and remove the firebricks and with the aid of a hand cart you can pretty much move the thing yourself.

    The Englander 30 is quite honestly one of the best things I have ever bought (no joke)

    In another 3 weeks the stove and all parts will have paid for itself in just about 3 months, as my winter gas bills were upwards of $400 per month from last year down to under $40 per month this year.
  14. Ken45

    Ken45 Minister of Fire

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    Sorry, but you made me laugh. We made the mistake of buying a Harman and the dealer is absolutely non responsive (besides installing the stove incorrectly). Calls to Harman have elicited a "I'll speak to the dealer" and that's the last I hear.

    Harman MIGHT make a good product and MIGHT have a long warranty but it's virtually worthless when you have to deal thorugh an inept and lazy dealer.
  15. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Quadrafire pellet stoves have a 2 yr electronics, 3 year burn pot and lifetime warranty on the rest of the stove.
  16. bbc557ci

    bbc557ci New Member

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    Hi BeGreen -

    Overall it's working real well !! Nice to be able to have the house 72-75 degrees, and not keep running out to the LP tank to see how much gas I gotta pay for at the next fill up LOL

    House is out in the wide open and sometimes subject to +35 mph winds. The stove can be a little finicky when the wind is a'blow'n like that. And it has done a couple of minor puff backs. Think I either need to add a few feet to the chimney, or look into a different cap. There's a couple of good sweeps around where we live. Come April or May I think I'll call one out and have him take a look, get a pro's opinion.
  17. nshorebb

    nshorebb New Member

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    I was in the construction trades for over 30 years and for the most I part agree with you about box stores. Overall, they suck. Only time me or my men would buy from a box store was if we were in a pinch. Regardless, it was the "you get what you pay for" line that kind of got to me (again, I mostly agree with you). It seemed to be directed towardsEnglander stoves. Now, Personally I know nothing about them but there are plenty of qualified people on this site who say the Englander stoves are a good product. And there is an Englander rep who frequents the site, who seems to be pretty supportive and helpful when an Englander owner needs help. Two months ago I spent allot more on a Pacific Energies T6, and do not know of a PE rep who visits this site.[/quote]

    Check the EPA emsssions rating for the big Englander and the T6 The Englander is half ( 1.63 verse 3.56) the T6 and costs 1/3 of the Pacific Energy T6

    Arrow Stove ( being replaced)
    Shtil Pro 026
    Husky 65
    Yamaha 600 Grizzly
  18. glenng

    glenng New Member

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    I`ve been heating my house for 3 years with a Napolean 1400. Great stove easy to operate and it burns clean which is important since I live in a neighborhood. I also have an Englander 15nc that I use to heat my woodshop. They are both great stoves. If I were to do it over I`d buy an Englander 30 for my house because of price. Its well made, works perfect and its Made in USA and its a great value. I like utilitarian woodstoves. Englander and Napolean are at the top of my list.
  19. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Glenn, you've just entered BroBart's hall of fame. Honors of smoked ribs and natural lite are soon to be bestowed upon you.
  20. glenng

    glenng New Member

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    You had me at "smoked ribs"
  21. gyrfalcon

    gyrfalcon Minister of Fire

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    Hey, Mike, I'm sincerely impressed by your passion on this subject.

    But wouldja throw in a couplea paratraph breaks once in a while? It's really hard to read all that without breaks every few sentences!
  22. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    sorry about that , when i get cranked up i tend to forget the "enter" key. im trying to get better at that.
  23. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Just lay good beads. Screw good typing. :cheese:
  24. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    i can do that, but the guys on the welding line are pretty solid they dont need me in the way. of course Ron (the owner)still shows em a trick or two on occasion, that guy is just insanely good with a welder. its always entertaining when he drops the hood and gives a lesson.
  25. seaken

    seaken Minister of Fire

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    [Mike, I was about to say the same thing about the paragraphs. It was good read but I almost didn't make it!]

    Here's the reality for me and our business - we cannot service everyone. Fact is, we simply cannot help many folks. If I can help someone who can't afford my prices I always recommend that they go down to the local Lowes and buy an Englander, some DuraVent Plus, and install it themselves, making sure to have the local building inspector take a look. If they are not handy I recommend they call a sweep service for help. We cannot stay in business unless we charge for our services. We help folks who are unable or unwilling to do the work themselves and can afford to pay for our services.

    Many folks on forums like this assume we are overpriced and impute wrong motives based on what we charge. This is unfair, and is based on ignorance of what it really takes to stay in business. We charge what we need to charge, and no more. We are not getting rich and in many cases we take home less than our employees. We provide a needed service to the community and we do not pretend to be better than Englander or anyone else. It pains me that some many people think us crooks simply because we charge as much as $6000 for a wood stove package, or whatever.

    I many times have to take a break from this place because I get so fed up with this nonsense. I dare to say that many would sing a different tune if they were in my place. But it's so much more fun to group all dealers together as the bad guys who charge too much and give poor service. It is so far from the truth. I have been in this industry a long time and I know there are more good dealers out there then the posts on this forum might indicate. It's just that the complainers and those unlucky enough to find a bad dealer are so much more vocal than the thousands of satisfied customers who use our services in every community in the country.

    I know that many here will insist that the DIY crowd is under-served by the hearth industry. But maybe they would find more significant service if they would pay for it. Service costs a lot of money. Good service costs even more. And after all, doesn't Do-it-yourself imply that you are supposed to do it YOURSELF? Why so many complaints that service is poor when so many only want the lowest price? It's no wonder you can't get service from your dealer when you always complaining about their charges! If you want DIY prices do it yourself.

    Now, this topic was supposed to be about opinions on stove manufacturers. Yet, as has many times been suggested on this forum over the years, you are not simply buying a stove. If you are not a DIYer you are also buying a local service. If you are not a DIYer, please consider paying your local dealer the price that he/she asks for instead of thinking you can dicker and negotiate, as if their price is obviously inflated and not really the worth what he/she is asking. If you approach your dealer that way just maybe you'll end up with a fine stove and good dealer to support you, whatever the brand or manufacturer, and whether the stove is made in Canada, Denmark, or the USA, or even the castigated China.

    I wish everyone the best. There are a lot of good stoves out there, and good manufacturers. And there are lots of good dealers. Due diligence and a positive approach should yield good results in your quest for a stove that will serve you for many years. If you are inclined to buy from a local dealer you might want to look at the following brands:

    Vermont Castings
    Dutchwest
    Harman
    Morso
    Lopi
    Avalon
    Enviro
    Osburn
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