2018-19 Blaze King Performance Thread Part 1 (Everything BK)
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jetsam
Minister of Fire
I have that original cat in a box as an emergency backup (it wasn't dead when I replaced it, just not performing as well as a new one).
Dug it out for a photo shoot for the curious.
Clearly it suffered, but it weathered the abuse pretty well.
Dug it out for a photo shoot for the curious.
Clearly it suffered, but it weathered the abuse pretty well.
I think everyone is missing the obvious response to the last two pages of banter: bholler needs a King!
jetsam
Minister of Fire
You could give him a King and move his house to Alaska and he still wouldn't be able to compliment the stove without choking. In private, though... I bet that Princess is full of lip marks!
lsucet
Minister of Fire
I have complimented the stove many times on what it is good at.You could give him a King and move his house to Alaska and he still wouldn't be able to compliment the stove without choking. In private, though... I bet that Princess is full of lip marks!
I’m about to go outside and reload my noncat for the third time in the last four hours! Those things can really eat! It makes me sad when I think about how many days that amount of fuel would have lasted in the bk.
Same thing happens when I burn a big fire in the pit outside.
Same thing happens when I burn a big fire in the pit outside.
AlbergSteve
Minister of Fire
Sooo...speaking of dirty pipes, I've noticed the last week or two that I've been getting a bit of smoke roll-out on reloads. Today was a "warm" day so I let it burn down to pull the top four feet of pipe off, scoop some ash out of the stove and have a quick look. So, a couple of things were discovered. The cat was mildly plugged up- in the ten months that I've burned in this stove I've only ever had a light dusting on the cat.
Then up to the roof. The cap was almose plugged as well!
The far pile is what came out of four feet of pipe, about 1/2 cup. The near pile came out of the cap, about four cups. In the eight or so years that I ran my Regency F2400, that big pile would be the total from eight years of burning!
The stove has run pretty much 24/7 for the last two months. The only thing different this year is that I've been burning cedar almost exclusively during this shoulder season, whereas last year it was probably 80% Doug fir. And yes, ALL of my wood is 14-18 MC.
Thoughts?
Then up to the roof. The cap was almose plugged as well!
The far pile is what came out of four feet of pipe, about 1/2 cup. The near pile came out of the cap, about four cups. In the eight or so years that I ran my Regency F2400, that big pile would be the total from eight years of burning!
The stove has run pretty much 24/7 for the last two months. The only thing different this year is that I've been burning cedar almost exclusively during this shoulder season, whereas last year it was probably 80% Doug fir. And yes, ALL of my wood is 14-18 MC.
Thoughts?
So degradation of the wash coat do to an air leak is considered thermal shock?
If so, this would make steel cats no less susceptible to thermal shock by definition than ceramic. In fact, thermal shock would be the leading cause of death in steel cats!
You could give him a King and move his house to Alaska and he still wouldn't be able to compliment the stove without choking. In private, though... I bet that Princess is full of lip marks!
Are you kidding. I’m not sure where exactly in central Pa Bholler lives but from his description of the crazy short (2 weeks!) shoulder season and the amount of btu’s required to heat his house, I would think Alaska to be nothing more than a break from the brutal weather for him.
And to think, it isn’t even winter yet!
kennyp2339
Minister of Fire
I think it’s time that I replace my door gasket on the princess. I’ve noticed lately that my burn times have been a little shorter, my t-stat setting are little whacked, meaning it’s either full flames on one setting or glowing box on another and the cat probe seems to want to fall below the 10 o’clock setting more easily.
The dollar bill test doesn’t provide as much resistance on the hinge side of the door, I have adjusted the latch on the previous season, this is also the second year on my cat which glows beautifully still.
The dollar bill test doesn’t provide as much resistance on the hinge side of the door, I have adjusted the latch on the previous season, this is also the second year on my cat which glows beautifully still.
Not brutal cold at all 20s and 30s. Normally we have a longer shoulder season. But this year it went from 60s and 70s to 30s in a week. Then back up to 60s. It was really anoying.Are you kidding. I’m not sure where exactly in central Pa Bholler lives but from his description of the crazy short (2 weeks!) shoulder season and the amount of btu’s required to heat his house, I would think Alaska to be nothing more than a break from the brutal weather for him.
And to think, it isn’t even winter yet!
BKVP
Minister of Fire
Thermal degradation applies to the substrate in stove speak... But you are correct in the fact that once a cat hits 1600F repeatedly, the wash coat flattens out, loses surface area, becomes less effective and degrades in it's ability to effectively reduce (convert) particulates. Both substrates can degrade as well. Ceramic crack, chip and fall apart and stainless can warp and distort. That is why upper limits on cat temps need to be restricted in cat stove design.
jetsam
Minister of Fire
To clarify what I think tarzan meant: Can the performance of a steel cat be degraded by hot-to-cold shocks from operating temperature to room temperature?
Phrased another way, does the aluminum oxide wash coat crack, crumble, or otherwise lose surface area when suddenly transitioned from 1500° to 100°? This would happen faster in a steel cat because its substrate doesn't have the thermal mass that ceramic does, and has a higher thermal conductivity.
Outside temps are in the 20’s and 30’s, yet you’re reloading a ~3cuft stove 3 times a day to keep a 2,200 sq ft home at 70*.
Most folks debating you can easily relate to those outside temps.
Most are heating comparitable sized spaces. At least enough so that they comprehend that amount of space and what it would take to heat it in there situation.
Ofcourse, comparable stoves.
Yet while they are in set in and forget it mode, reloading every 12 to 24 hours you are pitching wood into that steel box every 8 hours and wondering, what’s the big deal about this magic stove?
I know you upgraded your insulation but I really think your house is just still to leaky for you to reap the benefits of a cat stove and that’s also what many folks debating you are missing. There experience and yours will be totally different because your home is simply not very well insulated. It doesn’t make your experience wrong or there experience wrong, just different circumstances = different outcome.
Imagine how much of a pleasure the BK was during your short shoulder season. That’s the burn times and reload schedule many folks with better insulated homes are experiencing now.
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I know it still needs lots of work. And we are on top of a ridge in the mountains so we have near constant wind. That is what causes the most problems. And thank you for not simply dismissing my experiences as bk hating nosense.
Not trolling, just pointing out that I get an overnight burn with a much smaller fire box. And even on middling woods like Black Cherry, the stove top is still over 250, not "waking up to a few coals."That troll bridge wood burns (naughty word)hot, huh?
"Troll" implies that I'm trying to get a response from you who have already bought in. No, just trying to get a few newbs to research further before they spend their hard-earned money. Now, I would have hung in there longer than that guy you mentioned that took out the BK, and tried to come up with a solution rather than take the loss...but there have been some others on this thread lately who have bought, then started second-guessing it when they read later about smoke in the house or crumbling cats, issues they should have already known about. I say, do your research first and know what you are getting into, don't just jump on a bandwagon. The entire litany is there in the BK threads of yore.
Right, so you cut down the amount of wood gassing and weren't overloading the cat. Once the cat gets cranking well you can open the air up more and still have a clear plume, true?
Pretty cool, good one.
I would think that BKs would be popular there due to 1) they like the big box of the King for less reloads, since they have a looong burning season and loading gets tedious, 2) the stoves run on auto-pilot pretty well, and 2) BK is the closest cat stove maker to them, so more shops carry them. Just guessing.
Obviously, their houses are insulated and sealed to the hilt, so their heat loads may on the whole be similar to other northern US climates. Most of the people there live in the more moderate coastal climates. Fairbanks is about the only concentration of people where the weather isn't fair.
We all know that dealers of any product will push what they make the most money on. I have a feeling that BK can offer dealers a bigger profit margin since they charge a premium price for what is essentially a plate-steel stove. And product placement has been going on in television for ages, keep that in mind when you watch your shows. I'm guessing, however; You would know since you are in the business, and recently picked up the BK line. Hey, wasn't that about the same time you started beating the drum for the BK brand?
No doubt. Output/hr. EPA numbers for the King are approaching his Regency 3100, plus the King has the jumbo box. It probably would handle his place, no problem. The next highest-output BK, the Princess, is a big step below the kind of heat his 3100 can crank out when needed. Based on what he's observed, having run both stoves, I have to believe the numbers are accurate in this case.
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MtnBURN
Burning Hunk
Yes and yes. It was "professionally" installed by the dealer I bought it from. The next model up stuck out of the firebox a foot...and the bigger one wouldn't fit. I was assured the Regency would do the job. I'm sure you have heard that somewhere before...
But it didn't. Like I say...I feel your frustration. It sucked to have to move the couch right in front of that POS to feel that glow...and to spend all of that effort putting up wood for such poor perfomance. But hey...that secondary tube flame was fun stuff to watch...even if it didn't do anything to produce any heat.....oh...yawn...
I think the way I do because I've ran a lot of stoves. I got rid of an old Buck stove that would eat the same amount of wood the BK does in a day...in less than 2 loads...loads that had to be stuffed in that stove every 3-4 hours. It DID put out more heat than the BK! However...I don't need or want all of the heat in such a short period...know what I'm sayin? I'm sure a glowingd red, out of control firebox will put our more heat time and time again over the BK...if PEAK BTU's is all someone cares about. That isn't the focus here or why anyone buys a BK that i know of.
But hey...whatever, ya know? It is what it is.....like everything else on this rock. All you can do is adjust and go on.
Don't get me wrong I am not frustrated. The stove is heating my house well. And it is more even heat for sure. If I had bought the stove I would probably be disappointed in the lack of magic but it was lent to me for a season so I am out nothing and it just gives me more experience.
MtnBURN
Burning Hunk
Good for you re the smaller firebox and overnight burns. I'm happy for you. I lived in the Midwest once. There's truly not much "Winter" there...so yeah...I can see how yer cruisin through it all in such a grand fashion. Bring theat same stove out here and I'll guaranteee...with 1/3 the oxygen and daily lows in the single digits or lower...you'd realize we aren't talking apples to apples on the weather we experience...and thus...the stove performance we experience. Not even close!
My stoves work well for my situation. I would love to have ya come over and stick some other brand stove in my GH heater shed...same set up...and pull some 10-15F air right over the top of it all night long...and see how LONG it would (burn) heat my GH compared to the BK. For this structure and the way it looses heat (the entire top is only R-3, 5-wall polycarbonate)...I need that long, extended burn. A flash in the pan stove would warm it faster and raise the temps more in a shorter time frame than the BK...for sure......but in a few hours hour the fire would die down and the gain would be lost.
I AM seeing the differences in operation of these stoves. I can in no way get the same burn times out of the GH stove as my house or garage stoves. (12...vs. 24 hours) With the introduction of seriously cold air into the shed...the BK is definitely running hard...and what I would consider close to its limit ...and I can see how a draft house/building or poorly insulated structure...or even excessive wind...could easily play into the performance. It would WITH ANY STOVE! Duh....
Yup...I did the research...and I bought BK.....3 times. No regrets here.
Show me ANY stove thread that has stoves with no problems....you can't...so hey...this thread is no different than any other. Some folks are happy with the performance of their Ford...some with Chevy...some of us wouldn't drive either if you gave it to us... it's the same thing with stoves.
MtnBURN
Burning Hunk
Experience is where it's at...and exactly why I'm sitting here owning 3 of these stoves. As others have said...if something comes along that blows the BK out of the water on performance...I'd entertain owning such an appliance. I'm super happy for those guys out there who can achieve 12 hour burns on their non-cat stoves. I wouldn't change a thing.
But in the 40 years I've been burning...and the dozen or so different stoves I've operated (renting here offers that same "experience" without buying the stove) over the years before building houses and owning my own stoves...I've never had a stove that performs as well as the BK. Are they oput there? Most certainly. Are they just regular smoke dragons..unlikely...but hey...never say never. I've for sure been warm (OK..HOT) runnig those stoves that can almost talk and say "More wood, idiot..I need more wood"....but I've never been >consistently< warm like I am running these BK's.
No...they aren't perfect.....but what is?
So, as a sweep, I’m guessing you get pretty good pricing on 8” pipe, bholler? ;-)
I’ll agree, these stoves aren’t magic, they just releasing a fixed load of BTU’s over a fixed time. But I will argue they do a better job of releasing them at the rate YOU desire, at a more constant rate, than any other stove I’ve seen. They can also do it at a lower rate than any other stove on the market, when that is what is desired. That’s the only “magic”.
As to Woody’s pricing and “sheet metal box” comments, like so many other products, I suspect the overall manufacturing cost is just as dependent on R&D and compliance testing, as actual BOM cost. BK’s R&D and compliance testing costs likely run higher than most, due to the thermostat design. I’d also include marketing costs, as well, but I’d bet BK is below other top contenders in spending on advertising and market research.
I’ll agree, these stoves aren’t magic, they just releasing a fixed load of BTU’s over a fixed time. But I will argue they do a better job of releasing them at the rate YOU desire, at a more constant rate, than any other stove I’ve seen. They can also do it at a lower rate than any other stove on the market, when that is what is desired. That’s the only “magic”.
As to Woody’s pricing and “sheet metal box” comments, like so many other products, I suspect the overall manufacturing cost is just as dependent on R&D and compliance testing, as actual BOM cost. BK’s R&D and compliance testing costs likely run higher than most, due to the thermostat design. I’d also include marketing costs, as well, but I’d bet BK is below other top contenders in spending on advertising and market research.
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I’m a newbie here, so apologies in advance if this post is ill-placed.
Regarding the Ashford 30, I had my chimney swept not long ago. It was the first bit of maintenance done before burning season, including replacing the catalyst gasket as well as having the thicker gasket kit for the loading door put in.
Anyhow, after the sweep had left I decided to tidy up a little more with the shopvac and peek around the inside. After removing the catalyst, I reached past where it is normally seated and pulled out many thick handfuls of ash. Upon further investigation, I reached up through the open bypass door and noticed that the door-while open-juts out just a little under where the chimney insterts into the top of the stove, creating a small opening for falling ash to collect behind the catalyst. Not sure whether this would affect the catalyst performance, but I can’t imagine it would help.
Just offering this since I didn’t notice it anywhere in the manual or in troubleshooting. I’ve only had my BK for a year now and am still getting to know how to get the most out of every fire. Again, apologies if this is something as common as rotating your tires. I appreciate the advice I’ve received from some of the veteran burners on this forum
Regarding the Ashford 30, I had my chimney swept not long ago. It was the first bit of maintenance done before burning season, including replacing the catalyst gasket as well as having the thicker gasket kit for the loading door put in.
Anyhow, after the sweep had left I decided to tidy up a little more with the shopvac and peek around the inside. After removing the catalyst, I reached past where it is normally seated and pulled out many thick handfuls of ash. Upon further investigation, I reached up through the open bypass door and noticed that the door-while open-juts out just a little under where the chimney insterts into the top of the stove, creating a small opening for falling ash to collect behind the catalyst. Not sure whether this would affect the catalyst performance, but I can’t imagine it would help.
Just offering this since I didn’t notice it anywhere in the manual or in troubleshooting. I’ve only had my BK for a year now and am still getting to know how to get the most out of every fire. Again, apologies if this is something as common as rotating your tires. I appreciate the advice I’ve received from some of the veteran burners on this forum
I agree with all of that. But why would I have to double the size of the bk to heat a house I could heat with the 3100. And no I am not buying a king. I could not justify spending that much on something I absolutely hate the looks of.
Yep, the wind is huge if your house leaks some air, like mine. It's a log home; Chinking is pretty good but the corners have some gaps between logs that I'm not done fixing yet. With no insulation, wind pushes though between the logs and wallboard, and sucks heat away. Still need to seal electrical outlets too.
We are in the woods so the trees help break the wind, but it's high ground here so it's still plenty windy.
Well, I guess the higher the room temp in relation to the outside, the more heat will be sucked out of the room faster. That could account for some additional wood use..I'm not sure how much.
Like you, we had almost no shoulder this year, and I'm a good hundred miles south of webby.
In shoulder weather, a small fire keeps my house warm for 24 hrs. even though the stove doesn't really burn for 24 (there will be a few coals left.) So I'll have to start another fire once a day, instead of getting a continuous burn. It's no biggie to me, takes pretty much the same amount of time weather you reload on coals, or load and throw some kindling and a SuperCedar chunk on top.
Yeah, it's not like it's gonna be hot enough to burn your lips.I bet that Princess is full of lip marks!
If you're like some of the kool-aide-drinkin' hole-riders here,
you've only burned one brand of cat stove. My first stove after the Englander smoke-blower was the Dutchwest 2460, then the Woodstocks, and the Buck 91 at my MIL's, 1905 house with no wall insulation, 9.5' ceilings and stove room at one end of the house. All cat stoves. So even though I've never run a BK, I'm used to how cat stoves operate, and am not as wowed by their performance as the first-timers here seem to be. Ford, indeed.That's right, all stoves involve trade-offs, and that's been my point all along.
BTW, I've been to the base of the Sangre de Cristos...but that was in September.
Weird stuff supposedly happens in that area...ever experienced anything like that?
Yep, BKVP has mentioned testing with the thermostat as an issue. The Woodstock steel stoves have variable secondary air, and the PE stoves have the EBT but that's different, not controlling the primary air. He's also mentioned the load shifting, but that could happen in any stove. At any rate, I'm not sure I'm buying testing problems as a big expense over the long haul. I haven't been there for the tests, though, so what do I know?
As far as R & D, seems like you buyers do a bit of the beta-testing..."Oops, the thermostats are wound backwards...Oops, the ash dump isn't over the pan."
Well, you wouldn't have to double the size, but if you did you would burn longer between loads.
When my little 1.5 cu.ft. box burns down to coals, I'm back under 350 until I can make enough room for a full load.
I don't totally buy the "bigger firebox equals more heat." It's going to depend on stove design, and maybe some other factors I'd have to think about.
Even though the King is listed a little lower in peak output than the 3100 (maybe due to the inner wall baffles, which I think enable it to burn lower,) the King would sustain high output over a longer time with the bigger load it holds, so I think it would catch up in BTU total while you were burning down coals in the 3100.
If I could find a plate-steel stove that did what I wanted for 2/3 the price, I would go that route instead.
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