$5800 for new BK Ashford 30.2?

[bholler]

waste of time. most like being looted

What exactly does that mean?

 

[mr meener]

What are you basing this opinion on?

just funny with a little sarcasm. people should look at the Drolet HT-3000 stove for $1699. limited lifetime warranty. my friend has one for 20 years. made in Canada 5/16 top steel. very good stove for the money and they have an extensive line of stoves

 

[mr meener]

What exactly does that mean?

people defend high prices so they must like them

 

[bholler]

just funny with a little sarcasm. people should look at the Drolet HT-3000 stove for $1699. limited lifetime warranty. my friend has one for 20 years. made in Canada 5/16 top steel. very good stove for the money and they have an extensive line of stoves

Yes i know I sell them. As well as Regency stoves. The fit and finish and quality of engineering is no comparison. Sbi definitely makes great stoves for the money. But they are obviously built on a budget

 

[bholler]

people defend high prices so they must like them

No one is defending high prices. Just explaining reasons for the increases.

 

[Todd]

Certainly may happen next year, but the $2k tax credit ending this year is driving sales hard and fast.

BKVP

They never should have enacted the tax credit, it just drove prices up and not everyone qualified for it. I doubt the prices will go back down next year unless sales really drop off.

 

[bholler]

They never should have enacted the tax credit, it just drove prices up and not everyone qualified for it. I doubt the prices will go back down next year unless sales really drop off.

That is not what drove prices up

 

[EbS-P]

doubt the prices will go back down

Name a non electronic consumer good that the price has dropped on and when. Wood stove aren’t high volume. I would like to know volume of SBI, Travis, Jotul, and BK.

Oil is cheap when you take inflation into account

 

[mr meener]

a stove is just a steel box. it doesnt have pumps switches thermostats a compressor a transmission a cooling system a giant electronic brain. maybe there is not enough call for the expense but robots could make stoves

 

[bholler]

a stove is just a steel box. it doesnt have pumps switches thermostats a compressor a transmission a cooling system a giant electronic brain. maybe there is not enough call for the expense but robots could make stoves

You obviously have no idea how much time and money goes into r&d testing certification etc.

 

[EbS-P]

but robots could make stoves

They will in the future.

 

[mr meener]

you sell stoves so I can understand you. do they have to spend R&R money on every stove they make or just one time? . it is still a steel box. any company with half a brain can see a successful design copy it and just change it a little not to get in trouble

 

[Todd]

That is not what drove prices up

What did? Just a coincidence I guess.

 

[bholler]

you sell stoves so I can understand you. do they have to spend R&R money on every stove they make or just one time? . it is still a steel box. any company with half a brain can see a successful design copy it and just change it a little not to get in trouble

They have to do r&d on each stove model. Pay for ul and epa testing and certification. Plus all of the other associated operating costs. And why do you think companies like sbi and us stove works are cheaper plus the cheaper materials etc. They generally just copy designs and dont innovate. We would still be using basic open fireplaces is everyone thought that way.

 

[mr meener]

you are giving the reasons why businesses were driven out of the US. instead of making so many models they should stick to one or two to eliminate the rotten EPA whose real goal is the elimination of all types of stoves wood coal pellets

 

[bholler]

you are giving the reasons why businesses were driven out of the US. instead of making so many models they should stick to one or two to eliminate the rotten EPA whose real goal is the elimination of all types of stoves wood coal pellets

Actually no the epa goal is to make better and more efficient stoves. And it has worked very well. There isn't even any regulation on coal stoves by the epa. And all pellet stoves easily passed the standards with no modifications. Now can you give me a list of stove companies that have been driven out of the usa through these regulations?

 

[xshmoox]

Quit your arguing before I smack yous upside the heads with my $5800 bypass handle.

 

[BKVP]

They never should have enacted the tax credit, it just drove prices up and not everyone qualified for it. I doubt the prices will go back down next year unless sales really drop off.

Our pricing has remained unchanged since March of 2014. Unfortunately, the tariffs came along and if they get repealed, so will our charging for them.

BKVP

 

[Todd]

Our pricing has remained unchanged since March of 2014. Unfortunately, the tariffs came along and if they get repealed, so will our charging for them.

BKVP

Then I don’t understand how prices could have jumped about 50% back in 2021 for pretty much all stoves?

 

[BKVP]

What did? Just a coincidence I guess.

I'll try to explain.

Yes, the cost of testing and certification is very costly $35k for emissions testing. In addition, you must also conduct safety testing. This established clearance. Another $35k. Now, recently U.L. Standards Committee (yes I am a member) promulgated the UL 1390 for masonry fireplaces. So if you are testing an insert, add $10k. When you test a freestanding stove, the new UL standard for testing for alcove clearances, add $10k.

The above costs do NOT include the R & D costs with materials, labor, test filters, test equipment etc.

You may think sure, you encounter these costs once and then get to sell the stoves for a decade or longer. In the past that was true. However, in June of 2023, EPA issued a memorandum of understanding. The notice informed manufacturers that they would need to RETEST all ASTM 3053 cordwood tested units. By the way 78% of the cordwood stoves were tested to this "cordwood method". And, any M28R tested stove that was between 1.9-2.0 also needed retesting because "the variability in testing with solid fuel is such that 1.9 might have been luck". Don't comment on this because I will go off the rails. All this happened at the same time the tax credit was launched.

Now, you also have to keep in mind that retailers MUST not sell a certified heater after the expiration date of the certificate. This limits the number of "new" orders because dealers need to clear all the inventory....as do distributors. The tax credit has been a blessing for a few manufacturers because many consumers want qualifying units.

In short, continued volatility in regulations, test methods and compliance requirements is costly manufacturers hundreds of thousands of dollars.

As a reminder, I would very much like to have a sit down with the many professional contributors to these forum discussions. I have met several folks in person, but I really like the idea of a 2-day event. First day can be all about testing, compliance, certifications and the second ay the future of the aforementioned with new rule making coming in December of 2027. The reason I'd like to do this is because I would very much like to share valuable, accurate information prior to my retirement. And yes, I could arrange a couple of events, one in the east, one in the west and perhaps one in Canada. If this has any interest to you folks, let me know, I bet I can get a few other manufacturers to join the event. If nothing else, perhaps a virtual event, although it's hard for me to buy a round virtually!

BKVP

 

[bholler]

I'll try to explain.

Yes, the cost of testing and certification is very costly $35k for emissions testing. In addition, you must also conduct safety testing. This established clearance. Another $35k. Now, recently U.L. Standards Committee (yes I am a member) promulgated the UL 1390 for masonry fireplaces. So if you are testing an insert, add $10k. When you test a freestanding stove, the new UL standard for testing for alcove clearances, add $10k.

The above costs do NOT include the R & D costs with materials, labor, test filters, test equipment etc.

You may think sure, you encounter these costs once and then get to sell the stoves for a decade or longer. In the past that was true. However, in June of 2023, EPA issued a memorandum of understanding. The notice informed manufacturers that they would need to RETEST all ASTM 3053 cordwood tested units. By the way 78% of the cordwood stoves were tested to this "cordwood method". And, any M28R tested stove that was between 1.9-2.0 also needed retesting because "the variability in testing with solid fuel is such that 1.9 might have been luck". Don't comment on this because I will go off the rails. All this happened at the same time the tax credit was launched.

Now, you also have to keep in mind that retailers MUST not sell a certified heater after the expiration date of the certificate. This limits the number of "new" orders because dealers need to clear all the inventory....as do distributors. The tax credit has been a blessing for a few manufacturers because many consumers want qualifying units.

In short, continued volatility in regulations, test methods and compliance requirements is costly manufacturers hundreds of thousands of dollars.

As a reminder, I would very much like to have a sit down with the many professional contributors to these forum discussions. I have met several folks in person, but I really like the idea of a 2-day event. First day can be all about testing, compliance, certifications and the second ay the future of the aforementioned with new rule making coming in December of 2027. The reason I'd like to do this is because I would very much like to share valuable, accurate information prior to my retirement. And yes, I could arrange a couple of events, one in the east, one in the west and perhaps one in Canada. If this has any interest to you folks, let me know, I bet I can get a few other manufacturers to join the event. If nothing else, perhaps a virtual event, although it's hard for me to buy a round virtually!

BKVP

I could certainly let the pa guild know about it. And would certainly be there

 

[xshmoox]

Retirement?! You’re too valuable to the community in your position, you’re not allowed! lol well early congratulations on that. I can only hope I make it there assuming I can afford to this day an age with the cost of things . Only another 18-20 years to go.

 

[BKVP]

Retirement?! You’re too valuable to the community in your position, you’re not allowed! lol well early congratulations on that. I can only hope I make it there assuming I can afford to this day an age with the cost of things . Only another 18-20 years to go.

Very kind of you but I need to move on in next couple of years.

BKVP