Advise on Enviro Boston 1700 vs BK Ashford 25 and Several Newbie (yet specific) Questions

[chemie]

Hi Everyone,
A brand new member with a lot of questions here.I am from Queens,New York City -bordering Long Island.
We bought our first home 2 years ago.It has a fire place that we like to use. But as you all know and as we learned in the past two years, it is not efficient at all. I bought a Great Wall of Fire type of vertical grate that helped a bit but not much. Therefore, we are now considering to buy a fire place inster and have it installed by the seller (The seller is Captain Soot, if anyone worked with him, any feedback is appreciated ).
Our house is 2 floor colonial that went under a major renovation and extension in 2009.
It is about 2400 sq. Heating has 3 zones,basement,first floor, and second floor.
We use basement heater very infrequently mostly we run it when my little daughter wants to stay there playing longer than usual.
Starting in October, second floor heater turns on 7:00 AM in the morning until 8:00 AM tilll kids go to school and again turns back on 7:00 PM until 8:30 PM , right before kids’ bed time.
First floor that has open floor layout is set to 68-70 Degrees between
7 :00 AM to 10:00 PM and we spend most of our time in first floor.
If indeed possible we want to heat whole house with insert with little support of gas furnace.We would like to have comfortable temperature hopefully above 70 close to 75 degrees in the first floor.
When we visited seller’s shop, I and my wife liked EnviroBoston 1700 and Blaze King Ashford 25. I read great things about BK but it says it can cover 400 sq to 1600 sq while Boston 1700 can cover upto 3000 sq which is about 600 sq more than our total square footage. So my questions ( as a starting) are as follows:
1) Would Ashford 25 be suitable to heat about 2400 sq even though it is listed as upto 1600 sq?
2) Would Boston 1700 be better than Ashford 25 in my case?
3) Captain Soot gives all inclusive price for the insert and ss flue and installation. What questions I should ask him to make sure he uses proper materials for the installation?Like any insulation?
4) I did have Cap Top chimney cover installed for $500 to eliminate heat is escaping from chimney when not used last year. Could it be used with the insert or it will be totall useless and a loss?
5) When I asked the seller which one he recommends, he said Boston 1700 because we are brand new to using fire insert and Boston 1700 would be easier to operate than BK. Is that true that Ashford 25 would require more experience to operate?
I am attaching my fireplace picture, my chimney picture ( I believe it is about 24 feet long) , and house plan from the previous owner when they did extension so that I can get as accurate as possible recommendations from you.

Thanks for reading and appreciate your feedbacks.

 

[begreen]

It sounds like you are getting good support and advice. Both inserts are good quality. Yes, running a cat stove is a bit more work and more maintenance. In exchange for that one gets longer burn times, especially in milder weather. This can mean less running of the gas heat in fall and spring. In the cold of winter both will perform about the same. FWIW, BK tends to rate their stove conservatively, but if you want more heat it would be the Princess insert. The Boston will be a simpler stove to operate and maintain. It is very well built and easy to operate. Both stoves are going to need fully seasoned wood to perform well. That can be hard to find, especially this late in the year.

The insert is primarily going to heat the area where the fireplace is. That means the kitchen and dining area will get the least heat on the main floor. A freestanding stove centrally located in the Fam. Rm. would heat the whole house better. The insert will probably heat the two floors well most of the time. The stairwell is close by so heat will convect upstairs. The wood heat may need a little supplementation during really cold weather, but that's ok.

Yes, the Cap Top will not be needed with the insert and should be removed, maybe sold on Craigslist?

 

[illini81]

Hi Everyone,
A brand new member with a lot of questions here.I am from Queens,New York City -bordering Long Island.
We bought our first home 2 years ago.It has a fire place that we like to use. But as you all know and as we learned in the past two years, it is not efficient at all. I bought a Great Wall of Fire type of vertical grate that helped a bit but not much. Therefore, we are now considering to buy a fire place inster and have it installed by the seller (The seller is Captain Soot, if anyone worked with him, any feedback is appreciated ).
Our house is 2 floor colonial that went under a major renovation and extension in 2009.
It is about 2400 sq. Heating has 3 zones,basement,first floor, and second floor.
We use basement heater very infrequently mostly we run it when my little daughter wants to stay there playing longer than usual.
Starting in October, second floor heater turns on 7:00 AM in the morning until 8:00 AM tilll kids go to school and again turns back on 7:00 PM until 8:30 PM , right before kids’ bed time.
First floor that has open floor layout is set to 68-70 Degrees between
7 :00 AM to 10:00 PM and we spend most of our time in first floor.
If indeed possible we want to heat whole house with insert with little support of gas furnace.We would like to have comfortable temperature hopefully above 70 close to 75 degrees in the first floor.
When we visited seller’s shop, I and my wife liked EnviroBoston 1700 and Blaze King Ashford 25. I read great things about BK but it says it can cover 400 sq to 1600 sq while Boston 1700 can cover upto 3000 sq which is about 600 sq more than our total square footage. So my questions ( as a starting) are as follows:
1) Would Ashford 25 be suitable to heat about 2400 sq even though it is listed as upto 1600 sq?
2) Would Boston 1700 be better than Ashford 25 in my case?
3) Captain Soot gives all inclusive price for the insert and ss flue and installation. What questions I should ask him to make sure he uses proper materials for the installation?Like any insulation?
4) I did have Cap Top chimney cover installed for $500 to eliminate heat is escaping from chimney when not used last year. Could it be used with the insert or it will be totall useless and a loss?
5) When I asked the seller which one he recommends, he said Boston 1700 because we are brand new to using fire insert and Boston 1700 would be easier to operate than BK. Is that true that Ashford 25 would require more experience to operate?
I am attaching my fireplace picture, my chimney picture ( I believe it is about 24 feet long) , and house plan from the previous owner when they did extension so that I can get as accurate as possible recommendations from you.

Thanks for reading and appreciate your feedbacks.

I have a 2400 sq ft Colonial in a similar climate (Southeastern CT), and we heat the whole house with an Enviro Boston 1700. Like begreen says, when it's really cold, you're going to need to supplement the stove with another heat source. That is most likely going to be true whatever stove you get.

 

[chemie]

Thank you so much for the reply @begreen.
I appreciate the input. I have some seasoned wood. There is a close by forest which is filled with dead trees down by past storms. I purchased small chainsaw and can easily obtain firewood from the forest. And yes, I already checked with Park Department.
We mainly stay at family room, dining , and kitchen area during the day. Fireplace is located in a room without a door that we use as movie theater room and reading room ( i know it sounds conflicting). I was thinking with blower on, first floor that has open floor plan should be almost evenly heated. Am
I wrong?
As you said, since stairs are closer we are hoping , heat can easily be transferred to second floor.
I agree stove at the center would heat whole house better but we do not like anything standing in the room , at least for now.
What should I ask installer/seller to make sure he will do proper installation?
Thanks again.


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[chemie]

I have a 2400 sq ft Colonial in a similar climate (Southeastern CT), and we heat the whole house with an Enviro Boston 1700. Like begreen says, when it's really cold, you're going to need to supplement the stove with another heat source. That is most likely going to be true whatever stove you get.

I am thinking to use gas furnace as a supplement.
How long have you been using Boston 1700?
Any regrets about the decision ? Is it really easy to operate even for newbies like us?What is realistic burn time do you get? Can it be used over night and continue to be used in the following day, pretty much like 7/24?
What temperature is your house usually at with only insert running?
Thanks again. And sorry for all the questions!


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[begreen]

What should I ask installer/seller to make sure he will do proper installation?

The insert will need an insulated stainless liner. I would strongly recommend asking for a damper sealing block-off plate. This will keep a lot more heat around the insert, meaning more heat into the home instead of heating all the masonry of the chimney. It will cost more, but over the long term it will be worth it. If there is room, adding a layer of insulation behind the insert also helps.

 

[Poindexter]

The one thing about sqft ratings for stoves is they don't seem to allow for kids in the house. @begreen knows a lot more about this than I do. My usual advice, if you have kids, the smallest stove you should consider is the biggest one suggested for your sqft, and the more kids, the bigger you should go.

Kids leave doors open. They leave windows open. The go in and out and in and out and in and out and then leave the door propped open for the dog, at 20 below. They are just being kids. None of my four really understood until they got their own place with their own utility bill. My 24yo daughter got her first water bill this summer. She has beautiful hair, and I have the water bills to prove it. She was on the phone with my wife in another room, I knew who it was and I knew why she was calling. It was an effort to wipe that smirk off my face when I heard the wife coming my way.

Air sealing and insulation blanket matter, 2400 sqft on western LI I would look at installing a freestanding stove somewhere else. How many cords can you really process and burn annually? What are you paying for your current primary heat energy? Are you going to have more kids?

 

[kennyp2339]

I would assume that stock piling cords of wood would be tough in your area, talking about 8 cords at any given time. (4) cords for the burning season and another (4) cords marinating for the following year.
The BK likes drier wood (<18%) for full burning effect, while the Boston can be ran (<22%) The boston is also rated for a higher output for the limited fireplace space its getting put into. Lastly a insulated liner with a block off plate should be factored into the price of the install.

 

[chemie]

The insert will need an insulated stainless liner. I would strongly recommend asking for a damper sealing block-off plate. This will keep a lot more heat around the insert, meaning more heat into the home instead of heating all the masonry of the chimney. It will cost more, but over the long term it will be worth it. If there is room, adding a layer of insulation behind the insert also helps.

It might be obvious questions so please forgive me but does installer need to manually insulate the stainless liner or he can buy one. If it can be bought , should I ask for a specific brand?
The same goes for block off pate, does he buy it or needs to make it?
Lastly, what kind of insulation/brand can be added behind the insert?
Thanks again


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[chemie]

The one thing about sqft ratings for stoves is they don't seem to allow for kids in the house. @begreen knows a lot more about this than I do. My usual advice, if you have kids, the smallest stove you should consider is the biggest one suggested for your sqft, and the more kids, the bigger you should go.

Kids leave doors open. They leave windows open. The go in and out and in and out and in and out and then leave the door propped open for the dog, at 20 below. They are just being kids. None of my four really understood until they got their own place with their own utility bill. My 24yo daughter got her first water bill this summer. She has beautiful hair, and I have the water bills to prove it. She was on the phone with my wife in another room, I knew who it was and I knew why she was calling. It was an effort to wipe that smirk off my face when I heard the wife coming my way.

Air sealing and insulation blanket matter, 2400 sqft on western LI I would look at installing a freestanding stove somewhere else. How many cords can you really process and burn annually? What are you paying for your current primary heat energy? Are you going to have more kids?

I agree about the kid comments. Got only 2 kids that is enough at least for now
I pay around $300 monthly for gas during heating season but I can say house is about at 68 degrees. I am hoping to achieve higher temperatures with insert though not sure I am being realistic.I am not sure how much cord I would need or process. I am relying on storm down dead trees mostly oak and birch I think in very close by forrest to saw and bring home.


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[chemie]

I would assume that stock piling cords of wood would be tough in your area, talking about 8 cords at any given time. (4) cords for the burning season and another (4) cords marinating for the following year.
The BK likes drier wood (<18%) for full burning effect, while the Boston can be ran (<22%) The boston is also rated for a higher output for the limited fireplace space its getting put into. Lastly a insulated liner with a block off plate should be factored into the price of the install.

You are right, we dont have much back yards space in the city. I can probably stack 1 cord at a time obtaining wood from forest very nearby. There are a lot storm fell dead trees nearby from the past years. But I can’t store more than a cord in the backyard. Does my condition make having an insert not logical investment then?


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[begreen]

It might be obvious questions so please forgive me but does installer need to manually insulate the stainless liner or he can buy one. If it can be bought , should I ask for a specific brand?
The same goes for block off pate, does he buy it or needs to make it?
Lastly, what kind of insulation/brand can be added behind the insert?
Thanks again

The insulation can be either wrapped around the liner or the liner can be pre-insulated. Just let the company know that you want a quality install with a heavy duty liner. Typically the insulation used above the block-off plate and behind the insert is kaowool ceramic insulation, but Roxul mineral insulation is also ok. Fiberglass insulation is not.

In your climate zone you will need 2-3 cords of wood per season if burning steadily. Maybe consider building a well ventilated wood shed that allows you to stack higher? An 8x8x8 shed will store 3 cords.

 

[Ashful]

Begreen is the forum’s expert on so many things, I won’t challenge him on anything, but this one statement:

Yes, running a cat stove is a bit more work and more maintenance.

There is a reason we always joke about BK stoves being “boring” to run, they are maybe the simplest to run stove on earth. Open bypass, start fire, wait for it to come up to temperature, close bypass, set thermostat. I don’t see how you can say they’re more work.

There is a maintenance item, a combustor that must be changed when depleted. Most folks do that every 10,000 - 15,000 hours, and are happy to do it, as the trade-off for longer burn times and the simple operation I describe.

The only other things worth pointing out, in your description of your daily schedule and multi-zone heating, are the following:

1. Stoves, especially cat stoves, are long-burn devices. Load it with a fixed load of BTUs (50 lb. of wood), and all you can do is control the release rate. In effect, burn time vs. output rate. For this reason, you end up transitioning from cyclical heating to continuous temperature heating. In other words, you won’t have a house that’s 70F during the day and 62F at night, it’ll just hold close to 70F (or your preferred temperature) all day and all night, always.

2. I think there’s enormous merit in the concept of sizing your stove and expectations to “help” your heating system, rather than replace it, especially in a multi-zone scenario such as yours. Your house is a big capacitor, and your multiple thermostats likely do a great job of keeping all the various reaches of it well-balanced. If you have a stove that you can just load twice a day, to carry a large fraction of the load, your central heating can still modulate on top of that to keep things where you want them. My stoves carry about 60% of my heating load, more due to the size and construction of my house than anything else, and the multiple zones of automatic thermostats keep things right where we want them. It cuts about $3500 per year off my rather enormous heating bill, without forcing the family to suffer from a hot living room and cold bedrooms. This is where the Ashford or Princess insert can shine above the rest.

 

[begreen]

I am not saying a cat stove is hard to operate, but there is more to pay attention to. A cat stove has typically two controls to operate, the bypass and the air control (thermostat). The Boston has a single control. Maintenance is not just changing out the cat. It is also cleaning the cat, making sure it is not contaminated or shocked, and there is bypass adjustment & gasket replacement. The Boston is KISS design. Less moving parts = less maintenance.

 

[chemie]

Thanks for the detailed response. I may feel more comfortable KISS type of insert as @begreen recommended. Our life is a bit of hectic like many others New Yorkers. Less maintenance required insert would be more suitable to us.
I wonder if there are people in the forum living in NYC and using fireplace insert. I would really like to hear their experience about how much cord of firewood they use in a year.I like the idea of a shed but since our backyard has limited space my wife doesnt want something we cant relocate in the backyard.



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[illini81]

I am thinking to use gas furnace as a supplement.
How long have you been using Boston 1700?
Any regrets about the decision ? Is it really easy to operate even for newbies like us?What is realistic burn time do you get? Can it be used over night and continue to be used in the following day, pretty much like 7/24?
What temperature is your house usually at with only insert running?
Thanks again. And sorry for all the questions!


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Last year was our first year with the Boston 1700, and our first with wood heat in general. Absolutely no regrets. Our floor plan is not very open (single doorway choke point separates stove room from the other half of the main floor, and from the stairs to the second floor), so I didn't think we'd have any chance at all of heating the whole house. However, the stove can do exactly that until it gets down to about 20ish degrees out. It could heat the whole house when it gets colder than that, but we'd have to feed it more consistently, and the busyness of life doesn't usually support this.

Yes to the easiness of operation. The one thing that will make your life miserable, with this stove or any other, is if you are trying to burn wood that is not truly seasoned. If you burn seasoned wood, this stove is easy to operate.

Burn times - Last season I typically built a fire at 7pm, and then again at 5:30 AM (10.5 hr burn). During the day, either my wife would build a smaller midday fire, or I'd build a smaller fire when I got home at 4:30. The longest burn I was able to get and still relight from coals was around 12.5 hrs, but this was without really trying to get a long burn.

Home temperature - Our main floor is usually around 68-75. Upstairs is more like 62-68. Overall, temperature is going to depend on 1. Climate (mine is similar to yours, so that helps), and 2. How well your house is insulated. Definitely other factors too, but these are the two big ones. The better insulated your home is, the more the heat will simply even out.

 

[illini81]

You are right, we dont have much back yards space in the city. I can probably stack 1 cord at a time obtaining wood from forest very nearby. There are a lot storm fell dead trees nearby from the past years. But I can’t store more than a cord in the backyard. Does my condition make having an insert not logical investment then?


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I don't want to be a real downer here... but if you're sure that you can only stack 1 cord, then no, I don't think an insert is a logical investment. Would it be something to make winter nights more enjoyable? Absolutely! But I would struggle to justify it as an investment unless you can stack a lot more wood than that. If you are planning on burning 24/7, you're going to want probably around 4 cords/yr. If you are scrounging for the wood, it is going to need a minimum of 2 yrs to dry. That means storage space for 8 cords.

Personally, I'd want a stove whether or not it saved me money, but I'm sure not everyone is in that camp.

 

[chemie]

Last year was our first year with the Boston 1700, and our first with wood heat in general. Absolutely no regrets. Our floor plan is not very open (single doorway choke point separates stove room from the other half of the main floor, and from the stairs to the second floor), so I didn't think we'd have any chance at all of heating the whole house. However, the stove can do exactly that until it gets down to about 20ish degrees out. It could heat the whole house when it gets colder than that, but we'd have to feed it more consistently, and the busyness of life doesn't usually support this.

Yes to the easiness of operation. The one thing that will make your life miserable, with this stove or any other, is if you are trying to burn wood that is not truly seasoned. If you burn seasoned wood, this stove is easy to operate.

Burn times - Last season I typically built a fire at 7pm, and then again at 5:30 AM (10.5 hr burn). During the day, either my wife would build a smaller midday fire, or I'd build a smaller fire when I got home at 4:30. The longest burn I was able to get and still relight from coals was around 12.5 hrs, but this was without really trying to get a long burn.

Home temperature - Our main floor is usually around 68-75. Upstairs is more like 62-68. Overall, temperature is going to depend on 1. Climate (mine is similar to yours, so that helps), and 2. How well your house is insulated. Definitely other factors too, but these are the two big ones. The better insulated your home is, the more the heat will simply even out.

I am confused about this statement. If outside is below 20 than it can heat whole house but above 20 it cant?
Do you use any gas/oil as supplement or just wood? If you do use gas/oil how much it did go down as compared to the previous year.
Thanks




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[Tegbert]

I am confused about this statement. If outside is below 20 than it can heat whole house but above 20 it cant?
Do you use any gas/oil as supplement or just wood? If you do use gas/oil how much it did go down as compared to the previous year.
Thanks

I’m pretty sure he means he can keep up his two big fires and maybe one little One in a 24hr period in weather 20 degrees and above. When below 20 he would have to feed it more than that on a higher setting to keep the house at a comfortable level.



Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

 

[chemie]

I’m pretty sure he means he can keep up his two big fires and maybe one little One in a 24hr period in weather 20 degrees and above. When below 20 he would have to feed it more than that on a higher setting to keep the house at a comfortable level.



Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

Do you recommend Ashford 25 to someone brand new to stove burning like me with a hectic life and with open floor layout of 2 stories house (about 2400 sq)?
Thanks


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[Tegbert]

Do you recommend Ashford 25 to someone brand new to stove burning like me with a hectic life and with open floor layout of 2 stories house (about 2400 sq)?
Thanks

I’d recommend it to anyone. It’s easy to use and looks great. Not sure on how it would do for two stories as my house is a single story at about 1900 sqft. It alone in most weather will heat our whole house on low down to about 35-40 degrees outside and below that I either turn up the thermostat or light the other one. It is located on one end of the house and does a great job of getting heat to the other side.

If you have good seasoned wood and can run it where it fits your schedule like when you get up for work and when you get home or bedtime then you would be the only one messing with it. I light mine at 3 or 330 am and reload again between 330 and 430 pm. In colder weather the wife will turn it up and load it sometimes or again light the other one.

While it is easy to use and from what people say about blaze King is they are almost impossible to overfire when working properly you still need to be diligent after reloading or initial fires to close the bypass. So staying around till it gets into the active zone is a must. If your life is hectic at the house then set a 15 min timer so you remember to go check and close it.

I can type more later when I get a chance. I will be writing a review here shortly too once I figure out where to put it.


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

 

[Ashful]

Do you recommend Ashford 25 to someone brand new to stove burning like me with a hectic life and with open floor layout of 2 stories house (about 2400 sq)?

My wife and I work pretty much around the clock, have two kids doing the usual smattering of music lessons, sports, etc., and are managing a large house and property. There are few lives more hectic. That's precisely why I appreciate my BK Ashford 30's, they require so much less time than my old stoves. Load, bypass, set, forget. Come back in 12 - 36 hours, depending on where I set the t'stat.

I still disagree with begreen on simplicity. Yeah, it has a second lever, which is open or closed. I read a lot of stories of run-away tube stoves on here, and folks talking others thru some process of cutting back air at specific increments to avoid it, and wonder why they're not just all running cat stoves. The trouble is, I've never run a non-cat, and begreen has never run a BK. So, you're getting biased opinions, both ways. If you want an opinion from someone who's run both, there are several here on the forum. Paging @webby3650.

The cleaning and yearly maintenance might be more complex on the BK, but that's why we can hire chimney sweeps for that job. I've owned mine for three years, and had the stove shop from whom I bought them do the service the first two years. This year I decided to do it myself, and it wasn't that bad a job, but it took me from May until today to find a free afternoon to do it.

 

[begreen]

Though I have not owned a BK stove I certainly have run cat stoves and other stoves with a bypass mechanism. I very specifically noted that my comments are not about running the stove, but about the mechanical design. Cat stoves with a bypass are more complex and have more working parts. Just look at the preponderance of questions for mechanical issues people bring up with cat stoves vs non-cats.

 

[Ashful]

Though I have not owned a BK stove I certainly have run cat stoves and other stoves with a bypass mechanism. I very specifically noted that my comments are not about running the stove, but about the mechanical design. Cat stoves with a bypass are more complex and have more working parts. Just look at the preponderance of questions for mechanical issues people bring up with cat stoves vs non-cats.

Got it. Can't argue with you on that, there are more moving parts in a cat stove. I'm just not convinced that translates into an issue for one looking for a stove that's going to be the best fit into their hectic schedule.

 

[begreen]

The difference being that some here are a hands-on fixers and stove enthusiasts. Not everyone is. Especially not first time burners. Testing and surveys have shown that the average person does not maintain their stoves well.