Amazing creosote build up. What is wrong?

[treefrog25]

Hi ,

Here are some pictures that show whats going on.
The first is a shot of the incredible creosote build up before I cleaned it . You can see how it is hanging on in big
lumps and constricting the opening of the flue. I have never seen anything like this.

Then you can see the pile of creosote on the ground after removing from the chimney.

Then you can see the chimney after I cleaned it.

Finally there is a picture of the SS flue to the ceramic liner where I have stuffed the Oval-to-square gap with fiberglass wool insulation.
This may not be the best solution but its worked for many years and doesnt burn away.

I have started burning a roaring fire once a day followed by hotter fires. In addition, I sealed up the gap between the ss and the liner.
I hope this works.

Tim

 

[treefrog25]

3 more pics from prev post ...ran out of space.

 

[North of 60]

That fiberglass pink has gotta go. Replace it with k-wool at least as a minimum.

 

[burntime]

OMG, I have never seen that much build-up??? You are right to be concerned!

 

[North of 60]

The unlined chimney is not helping with the other variables.

 

[burntime]

Only thing is there was air going up around the short liner and the chimney itself is very cold? Go with a liner to the top if you can and insulate it. I would not sleep well at night having nearly a thousand degree stove cooking up a chimney like that!

 

[savageactor7]

Nice job with the clean out treefrog, you should be OK now that you plan on burning hotter. Even seasoned wood if it's smoldering for those 'end of the rainbow' 12 hr burns will produce creosote.

 

[North of 60]

Nice job with the clean out treefrog, you should be OK now that you plan on burning hotter. Even seasoned wood if it's smoldering for those 'end of the rainbow' 12 hr burns will produce creosote.

Dry wood and 12hr burns will not produce anymore creosote with a properly operating CAT and a tight non leaking flue set up.
Otherwise I would be in trouble.

 

[savageactor7]

Hi North ^Well he did clean the cat converter with vinegar ...so you say slow burning without creosote huh, that's pretty incredible then, had no idea cats could do that. That can't be with plenty of heat too could it? I'd consider a cat but we require heat and I don't care how much wood it takes.

Right now we have a QF4300 I'd have to say it's adequate for our needs so I was thinking about going for the 5700. The old Shenandoah got so hot that when company came over I'd have a box of sunglasses to hand out because their eyes would dry out from the heat output.

Sure this stove is prettier, easier to live with, pollutes less, and burns way less wood but I still rather have a stove with some reserve heat capability.

 

[LeonMSPT]

I'd think about running the liner all the way to the top... smaller smoke pipe discharging into humungous flu area. Stack velocity slows immensely and gasses destabilize and condense on the cold tile.

To the lady with the screened in cap... get rid of it. Parent's had one, and couldn't figure out why their slammer wasn't drafting well anymore. Went on the roof and nearly popped a hernia trying to lift the stupid thing off the top of the chimney. Literally, the thing weighed about 200 pounds! All creosote...

Ever had a chimney fire in that thing, they'd have reported from the space station.

 

[North of 60]

Hi North ^Well he did clean the cat converter with vinegar ...so you say slow burning without creosote huh, that's pretty incredible then, had no idea cats could do that. That can't be with plenty of heat too could it? I'd consider a cat but we require heat and I don't care how much wood it takes.

Right now we have a QF4300 I'd have to say it's adequate for our needs so I was thinking about going for the 5700. The old Shenandoah got so hot that when company came over I'd have a box of sunglasses to hand out because their eyes would dry out from the heat output.

Sure this stove is prettier, easier to live with, pollutes less, and burns way less wood but I still rather have a stove with some reserve heat capability.

Well this is my experiance. If the draft is opened up there is less time spent for the gases to pass through the CAT which then causes more creosote. Smoke is the cats fuel, so it needs more time to be in contact with the catylist to have a complete burn.
When I turn my stove down to smolder my heat output above my cat on the stove runs up to 750F stove top. I will however have less radiation from the glass, but a cleaner burn for my chimney. My stove soots up but god help me if I was to have a STOVE FIRE. Its down stream of the CAT is what you want clean.

 

[treefrog25]

The attached is from the NFPA 2006 document section 211.

It appears that the code allows for this type of installation, with restrictions placed
upon the cross section of the SS flue vs the masonry chimney.

Yes, the SS liner, backed with a fill of insulation is the best solution for sure and I'll
be going to that next spring. But, in the interest of science and my understanding of why and how
creosote accumulates, the question remains
what has changed that caused the non-creosote producing setup to suddenly start
producing huge quantities of it.

In my mind, either
1) I have been burning the stove too cool and have not reached the critical temperature of the chimney
above which creosote accumulation is minimal and below which the rate sharply rises .
...or....
2) a small air leak or several air leaks have allowed enough air to enter the chimney
to cool it and allow a sharp rise in creosote accumulation.

It must be remembered that this setup has been used for years with minimal creosote accumulation.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

i noticed discussion about a care and cleaning for catalysts , here is a nice page on that courtesy of Condar Catalysts

http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/care_replacement.html

 

[Todd]

I say some or most of your catalyst is bad. How long have you had the cat? I've heard stories of that vinegar/water bath doing more harm than good. They only last 12,000-14,000 hours. You may be reading high temps, but smoke could still pass through parts of the honey comb that aren't lighting off?

 

[treefrog25]

What you say about the cat not working
is a good point and I wish there was a way to determine the health of the cat besides just replacing it.
Measuring the temperature could be misleading because after all, when I don't use the cat and send the flames
directly up the flue, I measure 1200-1300 degrees with a probe thermometer close to the stove.
If it were not for the fact that the after-cat temps can read as high as 1700, I would question the health
and functioning of the catalytic media, but temperatures that high are hard to reach with flame alone (at least
I have never seen it) and so I conclude that the cat is working. Maybe its not working 100% and should be replaced,
but I think it is burning some of the smoke. I wish I knew more about the life of catalytic elements and whether or
not they degrade slowly or just die.

 

[Todd]

Try emailing Tim Cork and see if he has any insight. This guy knows everything about catalysts.
http://firecatcombustors.blogspot.c...-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max;-results=9

 

[Bill]

TF: Did you measure the moisture content of your wood by splitting a piece and checking the inside or did you just measure the outside?

 

[savageactor7]

Treefrog if it were me and I was happy with the stove I just go ahead and buy another replacement catalyst. OK lets say you do that and it's not the problem...well sooner or later your gonna need a replacement so now you ahead of the curve.

Now when the stove reaches those hot cat temps did you go outside and check the chimney for smoke?

 

[karri0n]

I still say air leak. You should seal around that pipe with something solid, not just fiberglass insulation, then chimney cement the gap. Fiberglass insulation is also not a non-combustible material.


I have a question for you cat owners; Is the cat part of the stove, or part of the pipe as in automotive applications? Does it produce heat into the house at all, the way a secondary burn system does?

 

[Peter B.]

I have a question for you cat owners; Is the cat part of the stove, or part of the pipe as in automotive applications? Does it produce heat into the house at all, the way a secondary burn system does?

Almost universally, manufactured stoves incorporate the catalyst within the stove.

There are (or used to be) some stovepipe (and internal) retrofits available. The former may clean up the exhaust (a little) but may not be able to maintain proper operating temps except in nearly ideal conditions.

Except for increased heat radiation from the stovepipe itself, there's probably little else gained... except perhaps an increased risk for a chimney fire due to elevated temps in the flue.

Two cents, and little more.

Peter B.

-----

 

[Ivy Frank]

The stove is a VC Defiant Encore with a catalytic converter.

There's your problem right there. It's called unnecessary technology. Get a new stove with an after burner, and no cat, and you'll never have to worry about your cat temp again.

 

[karri0n]

The stove is a VC Defiant Encore with a catalytic converter.

There's your problem right there. It's called unnecessary technology. Get a new stove with an after burner, and no cat, and you'll never have to worry about your cat temp again.

Some people like their 40 hour burn times.

I have a question for you cat owners; Is the cat part of the stove, or part of the pipe as in automotive applications? Does it produce heat into the house at all, the way a secondary burn system does?

Our cats get close to the fire, but not that close!

Peace,
- Sequoia

So, in other words, you don't own a chinese restaurant?

 

[TreePapa]

I have a question for you cat owners; Is the cat part of the stove, or part of the pipe as in automotive applications? Does it produce heat into the house at all, the way a secondary burn system does?

Our cats get close to the fire, but not that close!

Peace,
- Sequoia

 

[treefrog25]

<<wood moisture content
I split open some of my firewood and checked the core with the moisture meter.
Interestingly enough, the center is dryer than the compared to the ends/edges.
In any case, the measurement range from 7-18% MC

<<condition of the catalytic element
Todd mentioned that the catalytic elements only last 12000-14000 hours which works out to about
16 months or 4 heating seasons. I think this has that much on it or close.
A new unit is sitting on my shelf and could be installed but I have hesitated to do so because
the current one is still good or so I thought. Maybe its time.

<<chimney
1 week after cleaning the huge creosote buildup out of the chimney, I cleaned it again.
With a good vigorous brushing, I was able to get about 10oz of soot/ash/sand and some of this
might have been from before.

<<next steps
Wait 2 weeks and re-clean and see what I get in terms of the amount of creosote.
Install the new catalytic element and wait another 2 weeks, clean the chimney and compare the results.

Research the vendors of Flex Stainless chimney liners. I know of
Elmers Pipe
The Chimney Sweep http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/ they provide free shipping they say.

Any others I should check?

Thanks,

Tim

 

[BrotherBart]

Research the vendors of Flex Stainless chimney liners. I know of
Elmers Pipe
The Chimney Sweep http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/ they provide free shipping they say.

Any others I should check?

Some reported on the Forum to be good are:

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/

http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com/

http://www.chimneylinerinc.com/

http://hartshearth.com/ (my personal favorite)