Big power difference between 5 and 7 ton electrics?

[Soundchasm]

My Homelite 5-ton gave up the ghost yesterday. I have used the crap out of it splitting at least 30 cords in 4.5 years. If I could lift the round, it's gone in, although I've changed that strategy. Anyway, one of the long bars that pull the ram developed a hairline crack that finally broke, and the piston has a slight bend to it.

I initially thought to get a straight replacement since it's worked so well, but maybe two extra tons of force might make a big difference in productivity and keep me out of more trouble in the first place. You really have to read the rounds pretty well in many cases with only 5-tons. My brother in law was calling me the "Split-Whisperer" as we were whittling down the big ones.

I don't understand things mechanical, but thought I read that a 7-ton ought to have a 3hp motor and a 5-ton is probably 2hp.

The $300 I spent initially breaks down to $75 a year for access to a quiet splitter 24x7x365, and that's great. So $300 again would be nice, but I could be talked into $450-500 if I have to do less re-positioning that translates into splits going into the wheelbarrow faster.

Any thoughts welcomed and appreciated.
Thanks,
Greg

 

[Jon1270]

I'm interested in this question too, because the little no-name electric splitter I bought secondhand a couple of years ago is pretty much done for. It was inconspicuously damaged when I got it, and has only gotten worse. I'll be replacing it before long, one way or another.

I don't have direct experience with the comparison you're asking about. That aside, I'd recommend that you be very skeptical of the numbers used to advertise these units, especially when comparing one brand to another. The marketing people take advantage of any ambiguity they can find, with respect to what 'horsepower' and 'tonnage' actually mean, and make claims that can be misleading.

The horsepower of any of these splitters is going to be limited by the circuit it's plugged into. There's some wiggle room depending on motor efficiency, but you can be fairly safe in assuming that the books have been cooked whenever you see claims of anything over 2hp for a 110v model. It's common for manufacturers of all sorts of consumer-grade electric devices to overstate horsepower by basing their claims on the large amount of current the motor draws for just a moment before it trips the breaker, rather than the amount of power it can deliver in a sustained (i.e. actually meaningful) way. If you're plugging into a 15-amp circuit, then you're not really going to get much more than 1.5 hp. An awful lot of electrical outlets are on 15A circuits, so manufacturers tend not to design devices to take full advantage of a 20A circuit because doing so would dramatically reduce their potential market. There are probably some 20A splitter models out there, but even then, claims of over 2hp are probably inflated.

So, given that the motor is limited by the amperage of common household circuits, developing more tonnage is likely to involve a pump that can can develop more PSI (and more robust and expensive other components that can tolerate that increased pressure), a larger-diameter hydraulic cylinder, or some combination thereof. I have only minimal practical experience with hydraulics, but in principle, given that the power of the electric motor is likely to be fairly similar from model to model, I'd expect higher-tonnage electric splitters to have longer cycle times unless they have some sort of 2-speed system capable of moving the ram faster at a lower pressure until it encounters enough resistance to demand the higher pressure. I'd guess that a single-speed electric hydraulic splitter might be painfully slow-moving. If I were shopping for 7-ton electric unit, I would definitely be looking at 2-speed models. Again, this is just working from my limited theoretical understanding, not direct experience. I'm hoping some guys who actually know what they're talking about will chime in.

Because there's so much ambiguity and funny math involved with the marketing claims, I'd rely heavily on consumer reviews. FWIW, there's currently a 6-ton "WEN" branded unit on Amazon for $266.36 delivered, with pretty good reviews.

I'm also curious about the small electric kinetic splitters such as the Timber Champ, which a Lowes near me has for $450. A kinetic splitter stores energy in a flywheel, so its power isn't meaningfully limited by circuit amperage. But, increasing the amount of energy stored in a flywheel means either making the flywheel heavier (thus making the whole unit more expensive and less portable) or making it spin faster (and thus more prone, I would guess, to mechanical problems with the rack and pinion). Tonnage ratings don't make sense with regards to kinetic splitters, but consumers are accustomed to comparing splitters by tonnage so marketing guys make tonnage equivalency claims despite the senselessness of doing so, and again the inherent ambiguity is likely to lead to inflated claims. Unfortunately kinetic splitters are still sold in small enough numbers that reviews of most models are hard to find.

 

[Jags]

Jon (as typical) makes some very good points. One quick comparison (that was also touched on, above) is to look at the amperage (amp) draw. If comparing two machines and both have similar amp draw - you are probably comparing apples to apples on the pressure side of things. Energy can neither be created or destroyed so with very little difference in efficiency between the two units if you have similar input - you should have similar output.
The only real possibility for a difference in performance would be if the pump was different. If the high pressure side had smaller veins it would be possible to create higher pressure with the same motor, but also slower and also require higher standards for the other components (seals, valve, hydraulic lines, etc).

 

[Jags]

Hmmm...that Timber Champ is a new one to me. I like it. It is obviously a take off of the original Super Splitter, but makes complete sense for a small package splitter. Now I gotta go burn up my little electric splitter to justify trying one of the small kinetic ones out.

I would need to figure a work around for the two handed operation. I understand that it is a safety "feature", but I find a shooting log to the forehead to not be desirable, and with the speed of this type of unit a real possibility.

 

[maple1]

I would go the 'bigger' one - simply for durability reasons. Even if you use the new one the same way as the old one, it should last longer. That is, assuming it is built a bit heavier to accommodate the heavier 'rating'. I have a '4 ton', and looking at it side by side to a heavier one in the store - it looks like the heavier one is at least somewhat heavier built. Even if the tonnage ratings are fudgey & come down to how much juice you're plugged into. Which would, I presume, be the same either way.

 

[TJ1]

Interesting topic. I never even thought of buying an electric splitter because we own a DHT 27 ton model. But now I can see the advantages of perhaps a small 5 ton electric model. It could stay on the back porch next to the wood pile and could easily turn any piece of firewood into kindling just by plugging it in.

 

[Soundchasm]

Jon,
You bring up a myriad of good points. The audio business is chock full of the same kind of inflation. They tout a single aspect even though they haven't developed the entire system to take advantage of it. There's a 10% improvement instead of the 50% they implied. You have to be a real Sherlock Holmes to suss it out.

I ran into this very same 15A vs. 20A problem with one piece of audio gear. Since you mentioned it, of course 15A has real limitations, and it's not even 15A since there's that 50% sustained thing or whatever, but I get you.

If I'm reading correctly, it's possible that meaningful clues might be contained in the PSI ratings and cycle time. 2-speed would seem like a requirement.

I'm going to have to make a spreadsheet with brands, ratings, cycle time, weight, amperage, etc, along with cost. I can see a few contenders at the moment.

 

[Soundchasm]

Jon (as typical) makes some very good points. One quick comparison (that was also touched on, above) is to look at the amperage (amp) draw. If comparing two machines and both have similar amp draw - you are probably comparing apples to apples on the pressure side of things. Energy can neither be created or destroyed so with very little difference in efficiency between the two units if you have similar input - you should have similar output.
The only real possibility for a difference in performance would be if the pump was different. If the high pressure side had smaller veins it would be possible to create higher pressure with the same motor, but also slower and also require higher standards for the other components (seals, valve, hydraulic lines, etc).

Jags,
I have a friend who once remarked that a strategically placed washer could up the power rating. It makes sense now.

One thing that I'm wondering about is some units have the motor running continuously, and others do not. On my Homelite 5-ton I spent most of my time placing and replacing rounds/splits. Is there any merit to the notion that an intermittent motor might use less electricity than one running continuously?

 

[Soundchasm]

I would go the 'bigger' one - simply for durability reasons. Even if you use the new one the same way as the old one, it should last longer. That is, assuming it is built a bit heavier to accommodate the heavier 'rating'. I have a '4 ton', and looking at it side by side to a heavier one in the store - it looks like the heavier one is at least somewhat heavier built. Even if the tonnage ratings are fudgey & come down to how much juice you're plugged into. Which would, I presume, be the same either way.

Agreed! If only we could go somewhere and see them all side-by-side!! It might not be possible to get any headroom on the splitting side, but less likely to break would be terrific.

 

[Soundchasm]

Interesting topic. I never even thought of buying an electric splitter because we own a DHT 27 ton model. But now I can see the advantages of perhaps a small 5 ton electric model. It could stay on the back porch next to the wood pile and could easily turn any piece of firewood into kindling just by plugging it in.

As long as it's not a crotch. And knots are show-stoppers as well. All the usual splitting concerns remain valid. A little planning goes a loooooong way. But being able to go split for an hour in the evening in relative quiet is such a bonus.

You absolutely HAVE TO rig these things for hands-free operation. If you do multiple cords for a few days you'll have carpal tunnel and tennis elbow, and I'm not kidding.

 

[Jags]

Is there any merit to the notion that an intermittent motor might use less electricity than one running continuously?

Oh - probably, but looking at it realistically it is probably about the same savings as dropping some pocket change in the couch cushion.

 

[Soundchasm]

I guess it's not like turning on a hairdrier and walking away...

I'll see if I can embed a document with some research. A lot of the data varied from site to site, so take it all with a grain of salt. For me, it seems to be between Boss and Powerhouse, but youtube videos show both brands to be screamin' mimis. OK, let's try a PDF.

 

[Soundchasm]

I pulled the trigger on a Powerhouse FX128Z. I have honest confusion between it and the XM380. They seem to be 98% identical. Anyway, I'm going to try and stop over-thinking, but this ought to be a step up from the Homelite. With my improved techniques, I think I'll be able to avoid breaking this one!

Now I'll be tracing which 20A circuits go outside and maybe making sure I've got some thick extension cords. After the holiday, I'll know pretty quickly how much more capable this unit was than my old one.

 

[Jags]

Just for arguments sake (looking at your PDF) - 1500W does not equal 3 electrical HP. The math just doesn't work.

 

[Soundchasm]

Just for arguments sake (looking at your PDF) - 1500W does not equal 3 electrical HP. The math just doesn't work.

That's the Woodeze. It was published somewhere. I just looked up that one electrical HP=746 watts. As always, these research projects put new information in front of me.

 

[Jags]

I just looked up that one electrical HP=746 watts.

Right. So that alone says a 110/115 V circuit at 15 amps is banging off of its limits to pull a 2hp motor. Not that it is any consolation, but the gas powered units have just as much propaganda surrounding their advertised specs. Tonnage ratings are a joke.

 

[Sprinter]

it would be possible to create higher pressure with the same motor, but also slower and also require higher standards for the other components (seals, valve, hydraulic lines, etc).

Exactly. That's why some splitters are two speed, one slow and one faster. There is only so much you can do with a 15 or 20 amp circuit.

The hp ratings are often based on the peak starting current of the motor which is meaningless because as soon as the motor starts going, the current draw goes down. They do the same hocus-pocus with vacuum cleaners, compressors, etc because they know that people like to chase numbers.

I'd base my decision on how rugged the splitter is regardless of the other stuff. There is a reason why most electric splitters are rated at around 5 ton. It's a good, workable compromise. Anyway, I doubt if you would notice the difference between 5 and 7 in real-world conditions. I like my Homelite 5-ton a lot and it does 90% of what I need. In winter time, I put it in the corner of my garage for further splitting down and kindling.

I'm sorry that yours broke, though. I wonder if you could get the broken piece welded up? EDIT: Disregard that. I re-read the OP.

 

[Sprinter]

I'm going to try and stop over-thinking

That's always a good strategy! I often have problems with that myself.

 

[jetsam]

I put a voltmeter across a horse and got 0.001v. Assuming the horse is well fed and well rested and can sustain a 50A output, 1 horsepower is therefore 0.05W; a 15A 120V circuit should therefore be able to handle a 36,000 HP motor which has perfect efficiency.

This research has opened the door to a new commercial opportunity - namely, horse powered car jumpstarters. I just need to series-wire 13,000 horses twice, parallel wire the two horsecells™, and it'll be ready for testing.

I will require an additional 25,999 have horses for this prototype; anyone who contributes at least one horse is eligible for a free jumpstart.

 

[Sprinter]

I put a voltmeter across a horse and got 0.001v. Assuming the horse is well fed and well rested and can sustain a 50A output, 1 horsepower is therefore 0.05W; a 15A 120V circuit should therefore be able to handle a 36,000 HP motor which has perfect efficiency.

This research has opened the door to a new commercial opportunity - namely, horse powered car jumpstarters. I just need to series-wire 13,000 horses twice, parallel wire the two horsecells™, and it'll be ready for testing.

I will require an additional 25,999 have horses for this prototype; anyone who contributes at least one horse is eligible for a free jumpstart.

Very good! But you've never met my neighbor's horse. That thing could pull a house out of a ditch. They also have another horse that couldn't pull a sled downhill in the snow.

 

[Soundchasm]

I've got some info for two posts, so I'll try not to co-mingle. Here's some pics to wrap up what happened to the Homelite splitter. The rod that broke is .5" dia. You can see that half the fracture has some rust so a hairline crack has been getting worse for some time. I readily admit to abusing the crap out of it, and I'm amazed it lasted this long.

I noticed years ago the ram/piston didn't retract fully. This was hard to understand until I saw a bit called a "slide-spacer" or something under the ram had somewhat disintegrated. It seemed to put the ram about 5-10 degrees off and I wonder if that uneven pushing might have lead to the hairline crack. It could have made one side work much harder than the other. No idea, really.

OK, here are the pics. Any idea of what to do with this old soldier? He kicked a lot of ass and I'd hate to throw him in the trash, if that's even legal.

 

[Soundchasm]

OK, here's the other bit. Got the Powerhouse 7T today. Got it assembled (I think). There are four O rings I can't make sense of. There are two nuts and bolts that I think are duplicates. Checked the fluid and opened the breather valve.

There's no other way to say this, but I'm underwhelmed. It's really no different from the Homelite. It stalled out on the exactly the same stuff that the Homelite did. I was worried it would be noisier, but that's the same too. Everyone's camera used to record these things on the net must have the same edgy sounding mics. I'll put a dB meter on it, but it's fine.

Unless there's a break-in period I might as well have gotten the Wen. I didn't trip any breakers. It's a 20A breaker I shared with the pond pump. Maybe it's slightly better built but how would I know? The rods that pull the ram are .5" dia. just like the Homelite.

It retracts pretty quickly and maybe someday I'll figure out how to defeat that to save a few seconds per cycle. The tires are rubbery but they're so close together that when stored on end it doesn't seem stable. I didn't put the hand guard on so maybe that's part of that. The Homelite tires are 14" wide and the Powerhouse are 10" wide. Both pistons are 30mm.

I'm back in business but it's not the upgrade I was hoping for.

 

[BrotherBart]

The reason I bought the 4 ton. Couldn't see any mechanical difference in any of them.

 

[Sprinter]

Do you often do hard, dry splits that resist splitting at first and then suddenly let go with a bang and throw a piece several feet away? I have sometimes, and that kind of sudden stress could be be very destructive to any splitter I would think. My Homelite is still okay after 4.5 years, but at one point it did slightly bend one of the tubular frame pieces on a particularly strong split that really popped hard and threw a piece 8 ft away. They are quite strong which shows how much stress such a sudden event can cause.

My guess is that it's best to split wet wood that probably will split easier do to the water acting like a lubricant. It may just be the wood I'm doing, but it sure seems to work out that way.

Under normal use, though, the splitter's breaker or house breaker should shut down before any strutural damage is done.

 

[bodhran]

Hmmm...that Timber Champ is a new one to me. I like it. It is obviously a take off of the original Super Splitter, but makes complete sense for a small package splitter. Now I gotta go burn up my little electric splitter to justify trying one of the small kinetic ones out.

I would need to figure a work around for the two handed operation. I understand that it is a safety "feature", but I find a shooting log to the forehead to not be desirable, and with the speed of this type of unit a real possibility.

I bought a Range Road 7 ton kinetic splitter today...same as the Timber Champ. It's amazing how fast it splits.