BK Ashford Smoke Smell Follow Up

[Calentarse]

H rmm. How often is this happening? Because backpuffing will blow smoke in your house for sure. Suggests poor draft still or wet wood.....

Only on occasion, not reliably at all. Maybe 4-6 times where I've actually watched it do it. Flames lightly appear, disappear, reappear, not even really sure it's a backpuff. It's just that they're filling the whole firebox and then they completely disappear. Nothing like the explosions I used to get before which were clearly back puffs.

Definitely not wet wood, at least not the main reason, as most of my wood is dry. Nothing is above 20% MC, most is pine and well below that, and I still get puffing and smoke. Never a stalled cat though...

 

[HotCoals]

most is pine and well below that, and I still get puffing and smoke. Never a stalled cat though...

You know you might have to try burning with just a little air ..enough air to have some constant flame just to see if things clear up. If all is ok doing that it would tell us something.

 

[Ashful]

When I read stories of smoke smell on cat stoves, I immediately think "back-puff" as well. I had some of that trouble before I lined the shorter of my two chimneys. However, since you're experiencing the same smell at at higher burn settings, then it is very unlikely that it is back-puffing.

edit: Disregard. I was thinking of Parallax and motorsargeT, who both reported having the same smoke smell at all burn settings.

 

[motorsargeT]

I've never gotten a backpuff with mine. What I will sometimes get are ghost flames traveling back from the cat into the fire box but that is not relevant to the smell. It does not change it at all. With the old vermont castings I could get that to backpuff and it was ugly. Definitely not the same thing.

Tonight I do not have a lot of smell. It is there but not bad. If I wasnt sticking my nose in the corner I can barely pick it out in the house. Candle test was a failure also. I could not detect anything changing in the flame.

 

[HotCoals]

Candle test was a failure also. I could not detect anything changing in the flame.

Can't be too much of a leak then.

 

[motorsargeT]

Can't be too much of a leak then.

I dont think it is. Just enough to make a smell. I looked in a completely dark room with a flashlight and couldnt see any smoke either. I am hoping eliminating the 90 degree in my dsp and replacing the door gasket fixes this. I am holding judgement until then. And if that doesnt work on to the next step.

 

[HotCoals]

I am hoping eliminating the 90 degree in my dsp a

That should help the draft some .

 

[alforit]

That should help the draft some .

+1

 

[Calentarse]

You know you might have to try burning with just a little air ..enough air to have some constant flame just to see if things clear up. If all is ok doing that it would tell us something.

For you and Joful, I get the smell at all burn rates. Just not as bad at the higher rates. Called my chimney guy last night; he's going to stop back by and measure again and have a look once again at the manual and see what is recommended and compare it to what I have.We're gonna potentially try extending my chimney temporarily with some double wall and hope I see improvement.

 

[Ashful]

I have read that manual, and I don't think there is any guideline offered on chimney height. They specify by draft, measured by inches of water column.

This is actually a good way to go, for BK, as too many factors can affect draft on the same height chimney. Specifying draft in WC is really the proper way to go. However, I do have two problems with how it's specified in their manual:

1. The range seems very tight. In another thread, users who actually have manometers on their setup report that their manometer will vary 0.2 just with a change in wind speed, and BK's specified range is about 10x tighter than that.

2. They should still offer some rough guidelines on chimney height. It could be very non-committal, but just something of the order, "chimneys with height between x and y most often provide the required draft, weather and location permitting."

 

[Calentarse]

I have read that manual, and I don't think there is any guideline offered on chimney height. They specify by draft, measured by inches of water column.

This is actually a good way to go, for BK, as too many factors can affect draft on the same height chimney. Specifying draft in WC is really the proper way to go. However, I do have two problems with how it's specified in their manual:

1. The range seems very tight. In another thread, users who actually have manometers on their setup report that their manometer will vary 0.2 just with a change in wind speed, and BK's specified range is about 10x tighter than that.

2. They should still offer some rough guidelines on chimney height. It could be very non-committal, but just something of the order, "chimneys with height between x and y most often provide the required draft, weather and location permitting."

Oh really? I haven't actually looked at that part of it. Thought my previous chimney would work just fine as I thought I read somewhere before buying the stove that 12' was the minimum.

Day before yesterday when I had the DW put in, I handed it to my chimney guy and trusted him, but when I get home today I'll be looking for myself.

Regardless, I don't have adequate draft, have a smell in the house and need to add more pipe (will also need to be braced as any more pipe will take me into towering, unstable heights otherwise).

 

[Ashful]

In the drawing showing the minimum chimney clearances to ridge, etc., they do have a note, "Use a minimum total system height of 12 feet, measured from the stove fl ue collar to the top of the chimney, not including the chimney cap."

In the actual specifications, they just state "recommended draft = 0.05" WC (on high)".

On p.13 they elaborate, "Recommended draft is .05 in. w.c. operated on high. Too little draft results in a sluggish fi re and smoke spillage into the room when the stove door is opened. Too much draft (over 0.06 in. w.c.) makes it unsafe to operate the stove and will void manufacturers warranty."

This was discussed recently in another thread, re. 0.01" WC variation between recommended and voiding warranty, the claim being no residential chimney on earth can adhere to a 0.01" WC tolerance window. I really know very little about what is practical, just repeating what several folks with manometers on their chimney were actually reporting. Hopefully someone can offer us some more education on this.

 

[Highbeam]

Only on occasion, not reliably at all. Maybe 4-6 times where I've actually watched it do it. Flames lightly appear, disappear, reappear, not even really sure it's a backpuff. It's just that they're filling the whole firebox and then they completely disappear. Nothing like the explosions I used to get before which were clearly back puffs.

That is normal for me too. It usually happens when the fire I ripping along and then you set the stat to your cruise setting. The fuel load is offgassing too fast creating a fuel rich environment in the firebox until enough oxygen accumulates and then it burns. I suppose you could call it a puff. It's very controlled and slow though, more like a cascade of fire and then blackness and then a cascade of fire. It only lasts a little while like 30 seconds. Stove pipe is making noise from the heat cycles and the cat is glowing while trying to eat all the fuel.

 

[rideau]

Calentarse, you list issue (4) as wood is not below 13%. Surely they don't expect you to burn wood below 13%? Few if any of us would pass that test.

 

[Calentarse]

Calentarse, you list issue (4) as wood is not below 13%. Surely they don't expect you to burn wood below 13%? Few if any of us would pass that test.

Read that somewhere, yes. BK recommends it, I believe in the manual. However, BKVP has stated somewhere here on the forum <20% should be fine. Again, subjective.

And really, It doesn't matter. My wood is plenty dry and I have still have the issue. It's just potentially a contributing factor when I'm burning my more dense wood that isn't quite as dry as they recommend: >13% but <20%.

My fear is that after adding more pipe to the house, I'm going to continue to fight lack of draft. I'm going to end up putting $1000 into upgrading my chimney by the end of all this only to be told that I still don't have adequate draft. At that point, I'm going to be stuck with an unnecessarily tall chimney, looking like the neighborhood idiot trying to make the impossible, work. I'll need to consider selling the stove and putting in something non-cat that can work for me.

I tend to be a pessimist though and fingers crossed this extension of chimney height solves my problems. I've seen evidence on the forum of both scenarios so I'm holding out hope!

 

[DougA]

I used to have backpuffing with my VC. It's definitely a small explosion with a boom, then smoke being forced out of any crack or crevice that you didn't know existed. It's caused by the fire being starved of oxygen. Turning the air control down will contribute to the cause for sure. It used to be a real problem for me because it happened at the upper end of the temperature range and either I had to endure the smoke or allow an overfire. At that time, I did not know about opening the door fully and let the fire roar away. That appears to be an inferno but actually significantly lowers the stove pipe temps. Still, not fun to deal with.

 

[Ashful]

I used to have backpuffing with my VC. It's definitely a small explosion with a boom, then smoke being forced out of any crack or crevice that you didn't know existed.

Back puffs can be violent enough to wrinkle your liner, or subtle enough to be completely undetected. The come-and-go dance of flame show in any cat stove is just that, a firebox hovering right on the edge. Like a lossy oscillator, for the engineering-minded.

I do suspect the majority of "my cat stove smells on low burn" issues are subtle back puffing, just not recognized as such.

 

[Woody Stover]

Underneath the door gasket are the studs and nuts that hold the glass and glass gasket in place. The door gasket is a high density gasket and lays on top of the studs and nuts. Since the door gasket is high density it does not conform down around the studs and nuts but lays on top of the studs and nuts. So the gasket does not get a complete seal against the door.That's the first leak. When the door is closed against the stove,the door gasket comes in contact with the flange on the stove which is supposed to seal any smoke from getting out or any air getting in.But what happens when you close the door and latch it against the stove, the flange on the stove is centered over the studs and nuts on the door. If you removed the door gasket and put the door back on the stove and closed it,you would see that there is little room between the studs and nuts and the flange on the stove. Almost no room for a gasket. So when the door is closed with the gasket in place, the flange on the stove pushes against the studs and nuts and flexes the the door enough that it pushes the glass retaining bracket and works the glass loose and causes another place for a leak.Blaze King ground the the top of the studs off on my last door to help get a better seal but it didn't help.What they need to do is redesign the door so the studs and nuts are not under the door gasket.

Manually welding those studs onto the door allows quite a variability in ultimate stud length. Many welds on the BK look robotically welded, are the studs robo welded? I have the same studs sticking into my princess gasket and one of them even has a loose nut!

What the...??

The glass retainers on our stove are out of the way of the gasket path. This was the same on our F400.

Same on the stoves I've seen. I'm no rocket scientist, but that makes a lot more sense to me. I can't say for sure that that's the problem but it seems like a possibility. If that's the case, all they have to do is re-design the door and send everyone a new door, no charge. Me, I'm a tinkerer so if I had a BK and determined that was the problem, I might just keep it and figure out a way to back-engineer it. I might grind down the studs and grind the nuts to half thickness (or see if I could find new thinner nuts at the hardware store.) Then I might use silicone on the door gasket so I could seal the gasket better where it passes over the studs/nuts. I understand that not many would be willing or able to do that, though, and it's unfortunate that they are having problems. Smoke smell in the house, however slight, is a no-go here.

I am willing to spend the money and time but I am running out of ideas and options on what it will take to fix it.

I see what you mean about the hinge side; Glass is dirtier and the gasket is stained there, indicating an air leak. The tighter you get the stove, the better the apparent draft and the less likely leakage is. Now if you want a sure fix and, as you say, are willing to spend the money.....

 

[webby3650]

I cannot feel the studs through my gasket anywhere. It's 2 seasons old. Through the gasket, you can't even feel where they are. I find it hard to believe it causing issues, but then again I don't have any smells either..

 

[alforit]

Read that somewhere, yes. BK recommends it, I believe in the manual. However, BKVP has stated somewhere here on the forum <20% should be fine. Again, subjective.

And really, It doesn't matter. My wood is plenty dry and I have still have the issue. It's just potentially a contributing factor when I'm burning my more dense wood that isn't quite as dry as they recommend: >13% but <20%.

My fear is that after adding more pipe to the house, I'm going to continue to fight lack of draft. I'm going to end up putting $1000 into upgrading my chimney by the end of all this only to be told that I still don't have adequate draft. At that point, I'm going to be stuck with an unnecessarily tall chimney, looking like the neighborhood idiot trying to make the impossible, work. I'll need to consider selling the stove and putting in something non-cat that can work for me.

I tend to be a pessimist though and fingers crossed this extension of chimney height solves my problems. I've seen evidence on the forum of both scenarios so I'm holding out hope!

$1000 ?? .........What kind and how much chimney pipe do you need ? heh heh

I added a four foot section of duravent for $120. I am guessing you only need about that much for your height.?

 

[Woody Stover]

something non-cat that can work for me.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There are some cat stoves out there that breathe easy.

 

[Calentarse]

$1000 ?? .........What kind and how much chimney pipe do you need ? heh heh

I added a four foot section of duravent for $120. I am guessing you only need about that much for your height.?

I don't do the work myself, therefore, I pay labor. Had double wall Olympia Ventis put in my house replacing my single wall. That got me half way to $1000 and didn't resolve it. If I do SuperVent, the brand of my chimney, plus labor and the support system I'm sure I'll be getting close.

 

[Calentarse]

I cannot feel the studs through my gasket anywhere. It's 2 seasons old. Through the gasket, you can't even feel where they are. I find it hard to believe it causing issues, but then again I don't have any smells either..

I don't feel mine either and I'm thinking if the gasket were smashed down enough to cause a leak I'd be able to find them...

 

[webby3650]

I don't feel mine either and I'm thinking if the gasket were smashed down enough to cause a leak I'd be able to find them...

I've never heard you mention a dealer. Have they been involved?
We would be switching that stove out for one that fits your needs and works in your house.

 

[Charles1981]

yea thus far as i remember your dealer was really helpful with the VC.

Maybe its time to move away from a catalytic stove unfortunately.