Blaze King Advice Needed Please

[scum]

First, I did search the forums and I'm sure the answer is there but am not finding what I'm looking for.

I've been lurking here for years. Previously, I owned a Quadrafire and loved the heat output. That thing was like a blast furnace. I recently built a new home. It's a 3 story ~4000 sqft. I bought a Blaze King Ultra in hopes to at least supplement heat. I know 4k is pushing its boundaries. So I installed it on the main level. The main great room is a large open area with a 2 story wall of windows and open kitchen adjacent. The pipe is ~14' straight to 3 ft of 45* then straight up through the roof - so I expect my draft is sufficient. Also, the placement of the stove isn't the greatest. It's near the outside wall of windows.

I had hoped that the stove would at least heat the main and upstairs. Actually, I had hopes of running the central fan to push some heat to basement too. I've gotten past the break in and am trying to push it with this stove to get some real heat output. I'm burning lodgepole and fir mix which normally translates to some high temps. Maybe not the driest (don't know the numbers) but drier than I had in my quadrafire that would run us out of the house. I can load this up, get it roaring, flip the bypass and temps will get up to about 5-600. I then slowly back the tstat down to ~mid. There the stove top sites about 500 +- and holds. The loads last a long time which is great.

However, the heat coming of the stove is weak, at best. I'm talking heat volume. It just seems to be lacking. I read forum after forum about these things running you out of the house. This doesn't even make it hot in our great room let alone the rest of the house. IF I'm standing next to it, i can feel some heat but nothing like my quad. For example, as I type this, I'm ~2ft from the front of the stove. Stove top temp is 500 and I barely feel any heat coming off of it and my heat pump is running to keep the temp at 65 (tstat is in the great room). All things aside, even if it's not sufficient to heat my house plan, I would at least expect to be feeling the blast from 2 feet away...

1. I know that I could be running drier wood. I'm sure that's the default answer. However, it's as good or better than what I ran in my quad. Why would that make such a difference? It's standing dead that was cut this spring for reference (mostly pine).

2. I'd like to crank this thing up to max on the tstat. I'm not sure how hot I can run it. Manual just says, 'don't overfire' but that's not helpful. How hot can I push this thing? Can I run it hotter if I run the fan (I'm not a fan of the fan - I like a quiet house)? Is running the fan necessary to push the temps on this?

3. Maybe the way I'm loading the wood? Pics I saw from forums showed people loading it to the hilt. I've tried to do the same. There's a good bed of coals, 1st layer NS, 2nd layer EW and so on. ~6-8" splits.

4. Maybe some advice on how to get it going? I'm new to running a cat. I'm willing to admit I'm doing it wrong. I open the bypass until I see active flames and the cat is in active zone, then close bypass and let er rip to bring temps up for a while before slowly backing the stat down.

5. OAK. It's a newer home and insulation was awesome. Spray foam 1", then blown cellulose, 6" walls and every hole sealed. Is it possible that the stove is choked? I did ask for an OAK but the installer came while I was gone and didn't do it. I'm willing to add one myself but am reluctant to move this thing and cut a hole in my hearth...

 

[bioman]

try loading it E&W stuff it full & run it wide open see what it will do. 4000sf will be pushing it's capacity. Yor temp control may be out of adjustment also. Good luck with it, I hear alot of good things about Blaze king.

 

[Woody Stover]

Is it a vaulted ceiling in the great room? Do you have the blower?

 

[drastic]

BKVP is the expert On the bk stoves in this form. I would PM Him. Good luck sir

 

[blueguy]

Trying to heat 4000 sq. ft. is asking a lot. Where are measuring the stove top temp? If its right over the cat, it's not an accurate reading. Measure it at either far edge of the stove top. If you're seeing 500* there and it's still not heating your house, then start looking at bypass gasket, trying to open windows to check to see if the house is too tight, etc. However, by the sounds of your description, you're not running it high near high enough to provide the heat you want. If you have the stat set at 3 o'clock, turn it up to 4ish, I'm willing to bet you're going to see a big change.

And don't worry about over firing it with the bypass closed. The stat will prevent it from getting too hot. IIRC, the warning in the manual about overfiring is mostly for leaving the bypass open too long on startup.

You asked about how to properly run it. Until you get the swing of things, run it exactly as the manual explains. The stove doesn't care if the wood is loaded E-W or N-S, it only cares if your wood is dry enough, your draft meets the minimum requirements and your load is charred enough before closing the bypass and turning the stat down. BKs are great heaters, they just take some getting used to.

 

[blueguy]

I'd also be checking your wood. If it was cut just this past spring, dead standing or not, it may not be dry enough. Some cat stoves are a little more unforgiving than tube stoves.

 

[daleeper]

Was that Quad ever in this new house? If not, then I don't believe it is a fair comparison. It sounds like you have a very large room to heat, and installed next to windows. You say it is an ultra, but don't specify whether it is a King or a Princess. Either should be hot close up, but will make a difference in heating the space you are trying to heat.

Another poster did mention that the cat is more particular about moisture levels, and I believe that may be true, and may be affecting the heat output somewhat. Get some real numbers on the moisture level on the wood. We can sometimes be fooled by what we think it is.

 

[huauqui]

On #5 the OAK, First off you asked for an OAK and I would guess paid for it in the installers price. Make him come back and make it right. However this doesn't seem like a major problem since you can according to you "load this up, get it roaring, flip the bypass and temps will get up to about 5-600. I then slowly back the tstat down to ~mid. There the stove top sites about 500 +- and holds." It probably is a bit of an issue but your description doesn't sound like the stove is starving for air.

On #2 the stove, use all the pieces of the stove to your advantage, load up the stove with the best wood you have then open the t-stat up, crank up the fan, run a ceiling fan in the two story room if you have it etc. Try adjusting the T-stat to maintain that same 500 with the fan running wide open. You will have to set it higher then you are now and your load times will shorten up by a good bit. Your running temperatures and description seems to describe a fairly good running stove. See if cranking it up and running the fan helps. I don't believe that until you have tried this we will really ever know if the stove even has a chance in your 4,000 square feet.

Also if you could add a description of the chimney to your post that would help take yet one more possibility out of the mix.

Just my two cents, which doesn't buy much anymore.
huauqui

 

[scum]

Sorry, yes its the King and has the blowers. The great room is vaulted with two ceiling fans. Also the cold air intake for the central is located at the top/back of the vault.. The quad never was in this home.

For the pipe, its double wall all the way. Only one 45*jog for 3' after about 14'. Total length is somewhere in the 23-25' range all said and done.
I understand 4000 is pushing my luck. Which is why I installed on the main to heat the main and upstairs. I'd guess the numbers are about 2800sqft for main and upstairs.

I've pushed it to 4oclock or even 5 and it does get warmer of course. Usually the flames become active again. However still not blasting the heat. I try to keep flame activity with cat closed to a min since its my understanding the real heat comes from the cat when things go dark? I do see the cat glowing sometimes so I know that's working.

My thermo is center as far back as it will go with the convection top so is close to just over the cat. That's an excellent idea of moving it to the side. I will try that. I hadn't thought about the cat giving it false readings.

I'll also bring myself to get a moisutre meter to eliminate that part of the equation. I would not expect it to be so bad to have this much of an impact but better to know that guess. I have a stack wood left over from last season (seasoned for two summers now) but its out in the field under a tarp in a few feet of snow. It's a long story but it didn't make it to the house stack in time. Laziness dictates I burn the stuff closer to the house first .

The bypass gasket point raises another question for me. I've read about the dollar bill test but haven't seen detail. How hard does it need to be to pull out? And how do I do this on the bypass? Looking up in there, its not obvious. Do I have to take the pipe off to access from above?

 

[Highbeam]

Take the meter off of the stove top. It certainly isn't helping you here and is not very valuable on this cat stove.

Is your chimney 8" or 6"?

The stove isn't hottest when it's dark, it's hottest when you are running a full load packed straight in NS, thermostat on high, and fans on high. Let the thing eat.

 

[Sushiyummy]

Sorry, yes its the King and has the blowers. The great room is vaulted with two ceiling fans. Also the cold air intake for the central is located at the top/back of the vault.. The quad never was in this home.

For the pipe, its double wall all the way. Only one 45*jog for 3' after about 14'. Total length is somewhere in the 23-25' range all said and done.
I understand 4000 is pushing my luck. Which is why I installed on the main to heat the main and upstairs. I'd guess the numbers are about 2800sqft for main and upstairs.

I've pushed it to 4oclock or even 5 and it does get warmer of course. Usually the flames become active again. However still not blasting the heat. I try to keep flame activity with cat closed to a min since its my understanding the real heat comes from the cat when things go dark? I do see the cat glowing sometimes so I know that's working.

My thermo is center as far back as it will go with the convection top so is close to just over the cat. That's an excellent idea of moving it to the side. I will try that. I hadn't thought about the cat giving it false readings.

I'll also bring myself to get a moisutre meter to eliminate that part of the equation. I would not expect it to be so bad to have this much of an impact but better to know that guess. I have a stack wood left over from last season (seasoned for two summers now) but its out in the field under a tarp in a few feet of snow. It's a long story but it didn't make it to the house stack in time. Laziness dictates I burn the stuff closer to the house first .

The bypass gasket point raises another question for me. I've read about the dollar bill test but haven't seen detail. How hard does it need to be to pull out? And how do I do this on the bypass? Looking up in there, its not obvious. Do I have to take the pipe off to access from above?

It's more like your firewood not dried yet.

 

[daleeper]

I've pushed it to 4oclock or even 5 and it does get warmer of course. Usually the flames become active again. However still not blasting the heat. I try to keep flame activity with cat closed to a min since its my understanding the real heat comes from the cat when things go dark? I do see the cat glowing sometimes so I know that's working.

My thermo is center as far back as it will go with the convection top so is close to just over the cat. That's an excellent idea of moving it to the side. I will try that. I hadn't thought about the cat giving it false readings.

I'll also bring myself to get a moisutre meter to eliminate that part of the equation. I would not expect it to be so bad to have this much of an impact but better to know that guess. I have a stack wood left over from last season (seasoned for two summers now) but its out in the field under a tarp in a few feet of snow. It's a long story but it didn't make it to the house stack in time. Laziness dictates I burn the stuff closer to the house first .

Don't get hung up on flame/no flame. Set the temp where you need it. The stove top thermo is not a perfect indicator of whats going on, just a guide or tool, and the reading will be all over the map depending on where it is placed on the top of the stove, and whether or not you have the fans running. You have found that having the thermostatic control set in its current position is not giving you enough heat, turn it up a bit at a time till you get it where you need it without running it wide open all the time. Blaze King rates their square footage at 1500-3000 sq. ft, so you are pushing the limits even for just your main floor. My guess is quite a bit of that heat is at the top of the ceiling in your main room.

Good luck, keep working at it. You have one of the best big stoves available, it should do anything any other big stove will, once you find it's sweet spot.

 

[Sushiyummy]

He did not feel the heat 2 feet in front the stove that mean the wood in the stove did not make heat.

 

[blueguy]

I've pushed it to 4oclock or even 5 and it does get warmer of course. Usually the flames become active again. However still not blasting the heat. I try to keep flame activity with cat closed to a min since its my understanding the real heat comes from the cat when things go dark? I do see the cat glowing sometimes so I know that's working.

It doesn't put out massive amounts of heat right as soon as you open it up - it builds slowly. With it on high, you should not be able to stand in front of it for long without being uncomfortably hot. When I have my Sirocco on high before turning the stat down, and the stove top temp is ~400*, I can't stand within a couple feet of the glass due to the radiant heat pouring out. As Highbeam said, turn it up and let it eat. I am willing to bet that once you let it get heated up, you'll notice a huge difference. I would suggest running it turned up higher with a full load to get the place warmed up, and then maintain it with whatever setting is needed to do so.

There are lots of people who don't like having a stove top thermometer on their BKs, but I'm not one of them. By having it on there off to the side, it's not affected by the cat temps and more accurately reflects the actual temp of the stove top (verified with an IR gun) and I know what STT I need to keep my house warm compared to outdoor temps on a repeatable basis.

The bypass gasket point raises another question for me. I've read about the dollar bill test but haven't seen detail. How hard does it need to be to pull out? And how do I do this on the bypass? Looking up in there, its not obvious. Do I have to take the pipe off to access from above?

You can do the test from inside the fire box. Open the bypass, place dollar bill on gasket, close and cam over the bypass lever and try to remove the bill. It should be snug and a little difficult to remove. Obviously, only try this on a cold stove.

If the bypass isn't sealing properly, the easiest way to adjust the door is to remove the pipe and access the adjuster from the top. You'll need a pair of 7/16" combination wrenches to do it. Loosen the locknut before trying to adjust the bolt otherwise you'll run the risk of shearing the adjuster bolt.

 

[scum]

Thank you all for the replies. I am going to pick up a moisture meter today. I like the idea of a thermo on the top and am probably going to get a probe for the pipe. I know they're not terribly accurate but I'm used to using them as a gauge. I have to admit, I've been afraid of cranking it up high simply because it wasn't clear what 'too' hot is for this stove. I figured riding at 5-600 was sufficient but as has been pointed out, the cat is throwing off my measurement. After checking the bypass gasket, I'll pack it full and ride it hard tonight to see if I can get this thing to stretch it's legs.

It was a tossup between this and the equinox. The wife is not happy with my choice so I'm trying hard to justify it. So far, I've been losing this fight...

 

[BKVP]

I hate to sound like a broken record...

Is the 14' of black pipe single wall or double wall? From stove to cap, what is the total run length please?

 

[scum]

Sorry. thought I answered it. It's 8" double wall pipe all the way to the ceiling. I'm only taking a wag at numbers since I'm not there to break out the tape and measure. It's a two story vault with scissor trusses. So, I'm guessing stove to ceiling is about 16'. About 3' from the ceiling, it does a 45 degree jog for a ~3' run, then goes up through the ceiling. Then I'm guessing ~3' through the ceiling and 6' on the roof to clear the peak. So that puts me at a very rough 25'. I know that's no where near accurate. I really don't know what type of pipe is used after it hits the ceiling (double/triple?). I know they didn't come down to 6" at any point. The builder made the mistake of having 6" chase put in the ceiling and I made him rip it out to put in the 8". It was installed by Leisure Time out of Boise so I assume they followed code for the installed pieces I can't see.

I do know I'm really not looking forward to climbing up on a 3 story metal roof to clean this thing...

 

[blueguy]

I do know I'm really not looking forward to climbing up on a 3 story metal roof to clean this thing...

Get yourself a Sooteater with enough rods and do it from the bottom

 

[scum]

Cooking with wood now! It's a bit embarrassing really. Having that thermo over the cat really threw me off I guess. I measured the moisture and am averaging about 15%. A couple pieces as high as 24%. I did forget to check the bypass so still need to do that and probably check the door again.

So, I packed it up NS, cranked to high and let er rip. It's not running me out of the room but it's warm in here. I have the tstat settled at about 5oclock. I expect with some practice and fine tuning and likely an OAK, I can squeeze more out of it. I'm just excited I'm actually significantly heating the place now.

Thanks all.

 

[Poindexter]

1. I know that I could be running drier wood. I'm sure that's the default answer. However, it's as good or better than what I ran in my quad. Why would that make such a difference? It's standing dead that was cut this spring for reference (mostly pine).

I just bought two cords of spruce splits Saturday. Probably split less than a week before delivery, but fire killed two years ago, standing dead for two years. After 24 hours in my heated garage, fresh exposed faces measured 18%MC per handheld meter. After 48 hours in my heated garage, fresh exposed faces on other pieces from the same delivery measured 22-26%.


I have an Ashford 30, not the same model as your Ultra. Mine runs like a champ on 12-16% MC, and runs kinda pretty OK on 16-20%. BKVP has posted that we can burn 22%, but it is not ideal. If your wood measures 16-20% when it is thoroughly thawed out try throwing some biologs at the bottom of each load. If it is over 20%, season it another year, it's not ready.

Sorry, but M2c with a fresh delivery of two cords that aren't quite ready on my mind.

 

[Poindexter]

Thought of one other thing. If your wood meters >16%, (I'll bet five dollars it does) and you try the biologs, get your fire roaring, get the cat engaged as per the manual, then run the stove at full throttle for an hour, 60 measured minutes, before you start backing off the Tstat.

You won't overfire the stove with the bypass door closed.

What that will do for you is cook the water out of your load so for the rest of the burn you can experience the miracle of BK's alien technology.

FWIW I am pushing 7-9 cords annually through my A30 in a 9 month burn season. I know a thing or two about driving them hard. Couple seasons running a single Ultra in 4k sqft you'll be in the same club.

 

[scum]

Thanks. As i said, im sure i could do drier wood. I was happy to see it measure as low as it did to be honest.

Just checked temps. Main level at 69, upstairs 72, basement 68 with heatpump cycling in basement (zoned heat). The cold air return is in my vaulted room with stove so I like to think the stove is supplementing the basement heatpump. I did turn the stove down a bit because the cured paint smell was coming on again. Last time I let it run hot to cure the paint, it set off my alarms and I don't want to wake the family up. I'll have to ride it hard and long during the day to finish curing that paint I guess.

As a side note, my basement is plumbed for radiant heating. This is why I put the stove on the main level. My future plan is to build a solar radiant heating system for the basement.

 

[kennyp2339]

Do you have a convection deck on top of the stove? I just ordered one for the princess, I will be installing it this weekend, I'm hoping to gain heat output on a lower setting so I can maximize my burn times.

 

[scum]

If by convection deck, you mean the stack of fins on top that the fans blow through, then yes I have one. I've not played with the fans much. My understanding is it lowers the run times because it keeps the stove burning hotter?

 

[kennyp2339]

True, right now I have the blower kit on mine with no deck to focus the air going over the stove, I hope the deck works as advertised.
Also one thing to remember, once your house reaches temp, the king can be lowered some what due to the steady heat output, I would experiment with lowering the stove t-stat and then turning the blower on low to see if it will maintain house temps while increasing the burn times.