Cat Stove

[Draughts15]

Hello,

I've been going back and forth on this site and others for months on which stove to get. Thought I was FINALLY settled on the PE Neo 2.5 but I'm worried about the E/W loading and burn times. I have someone lined up for the masonry so i need to make a decision soon.. I think a CAT stove may be the best option for my ~1350 sq ft, open concept ranch style house. I really like the glass window/air wash on the NEO and T6, but I think the T6 would be too big. I really like PE in general. Anyone have a suggestion on a long burning CAT stove with higher heat output that keeps a clean window? 10 hour burns min. would be ideal with N/S loading. Id love to be able to load before bed and before work while waking up or getting home from work with a fire still going. I don't know how to operate a CAT stove, but if it's the better fit, there's a lot of info on this site and others where I can learn. My goal is to only use our propane furnace as backup and rely on the stove for main heat. I really appreciate any suggestions.

 

[begreen]

Cat stoves and clean windows are not synonymous, especially when run long and slow. If run at medium heat then the glass will stay cleaner. Hybrids like the WS Ideal Steel or Regency F3500 will keep a cleaner glass. Blaze King, Kuma, Buck and Woodstock all make good cat stoves. Regency, Woodstock, Hearthstone have hybrids too. Check to see if the model you are interested in is in the 75%+ club.

 

[Caw]

Oh no....everybody hide! Here come the BK fainbois!

Haha, Ok OK, back to the thread . As Begreen said a pure cat stove isn't going to give you pretty clean glass and hybrid seems like it may be something to consider. I really like the look of the WS Ideal Steel. Good company, sharp looks, and has great reviews. Right now it's all about the tax credit though. Start with that list and see if anything suits you...26% is a lot of money! It counts on the install too.

 

[Draughts15]

Thanks...Kuma was an original that I really liked. I reached to Jason months ago, looks like I'm back on the Kuma Train. Based on reviews, the 2.5 boxes put out a lot of heat with around 12 hour burn times and N/S loading.

 

[stoveliker]

The issue is that if your space in the fireplace is set, you will end up with a maximum firebox size. That gives you a maximum burn time for any burn rate. A cat stove may be able to burn longer, because it can (generally) run lower. But you'll get less heat out per hour than if you'd burn higher.

Burning low creates creosote that a cat might combust before it reaches your flue - but it will reach your viewing glass. Even with an airwash, because when you burn low, the airwash will be not strong enough (in general) to keep all the creosote from your window.

So, if you want to burn with flames, AND you want to burn long, you need a big firebox (b/c long and flames=higher air setting, needs more BTUs input). You might roast out of your place.

If the clear glass is important, I'd go for a tube stove, and build smaller fires so as not to roast out of your home. But it won't be "long".

(@Caw how's that...?)

 

[Caw]

@Caw how's that...?

Very informative and fair. Im proud of you!

 

[nortcan]

Hi all cat pro., for sheadu061 particular situation, do you think that the ProgressHybrid would be a too big stove for him? The answers could also serve for me (maybe) one of these days, so one answer for two members.

 

[stoveliker]

Hi all cat pro., for sheadu061 particular situation, do you think that the ProgressHybrid would be a too big stove for him? The answers could also serve for me (maybe) one of these days, so one answer for two members.

I hope that others that actually know that stove will chime in. I do see a long burn - but I'm not sure whether that is "until no coals are left" or what the burn time actually entails (usable heat? - how would that even be defined? - reloading w/o relighting possible?).
.
In general a hybrid (or tube) stove needs to run harder to maintain clean (secondary) burns, and the window may thus stay cleaner due to more air washing the window than in a cat stove (run on low - a cat stove run higher will also keep a clean window AND show some flames).

I'm a bit concerned whether the stove might be too large in heat output (minimum 13,000 BTU/hr) for a 1350 sqft place - but I don't have a good feel for the need for heat. Layout, ceiling height, tightness of the home all matter.

The OP is in MN, and you are in Quebec. Maybe it'd work. The shoulder seasons would likely need intermittent smaller fires.

I do not have enough knowledge to give advice on your particular situation (hence my more general remarks above).

 

[Highbeam]

Some of the Woodstock’s use double pane glass to help prevent that creosote on the glass even at low burn rates. If you can handle the looks then I think all of their models can do 12 hour burns.

 

[Todd]

I’ve burned a lot of different stoves, Woodstock, Blazeking, Hearthstone and others and non of them have given me as clean glass as my current Jotul F45. I haven’t once had to wipe off the glass this year, it’s stayed just as clean as the day I installed it. As far as burn times go I can get consistent 10-12hrs with a full box of good hardwood loading N/S. Maybe another option to look at.

 

[begreen]

As far as burn times go I can get consistent 10-12hrs with a full box of good hardwood loading N/S.

That's quite respectable for a medium-sized stove.

 

[wormser]

@sheadu061 You have a very similar sounding setup that I do. I have a ranch house about 1500sqft with open kitchen, dining, living room. I do have 14' high ceiling in living room side. I also have propane forced air solely for backup/really cold times. We have had a cold winter and I still only turned it on 2 nights this year. I have a return in the same room in basement so I typically run my circulating fan all the time when the stove is on. After years of using an old school fisher like stove I upgraded to a stove the met the EPA requirements for the tax break. I ended up with the Kuma Wood Classic about a month ago. It is in my basement with an exterior masonry chimney that is about 22' high.

So far so good with the Kuma. I've learned a lot over the past month on these new stoves:

Window - It got dirty the first week and was frustrating thinking this was going to be a constant issue. Since then it's been much cleaner. Reading the book it talked about the moisture in the firebrick and I can only think that may have contributed. I have been running it warmer as well as the temps have been lower than when I originally got it. My dealer gave me a small care package to go with my stove that had glass cleaner for creosote. The dealer said it's not worth buying more you can simply wet a towel, put it in ash and wipe it off. The cleaner works....I'll buy more. Also running the air open a bit longer has helped clean the window except for a bit in the corners.

Heat - I don't think it gets as hot as my old stove but it keeps a more consistent temperature. I'm burning a mixed bag of hardwood right now. I fill it up around 6:30am, give it a half hour to get going and close the air down almost all the way. When I come home at 4:30 there are plenty of coals. If it's cold out I put in some quicker burning wood to get me to 8:00. If it's not bad I let it go until 8:00 and fill it up as their are still coals, leave air open for 30 minutes or until temp is where I want it then shutdown air until morning. Rinse, Repeat. When I go from 6:30 am to 8:00 pm is the only time the temp gauge goes below active. I still typically have flames within a minute just from the coals and the door cracked slightly.

Looks- Yeah it's not a PE T6. That was actually my first choice too as we have a nice stone hearth and I'd like something nice. The classic has a plain look to it, nothing fancy. For me...and more importantly my wife....when you are sitting in front of it and watching the fire everything else washes away. My wife who normally doesn't go to the basement is down there almost every evening in front of the fire reading her book.

It was also half the price of the T6.

 

[BKVP]

Very informative and fair. Im proud of you!

Another clarifying point...fanboy or not, the glass in the 20 series and 30 series stays much, much cleaner than King and Princess models.

Studying air flow patterns, the floor of the stove in the above is much closer to the glass.

For future reference, the King is 9" deep, Princess 6" deep and the 20's and 30's are 3".

Being that much closer to front door glass brings higher temps and less air flow obstruction.

My KE40 glass stays 50% cleaner than my 1107 did. (My wood is also a year dryer!)

Either way, the low and slow deposits just go away went burned like a tube stove...meaning same kg/h burn rate.

 

[nortcan]

Another clarifying point...fanboy or not, the glass in the 20 series and 30 series stays much, much cleaner than King and Princess models.

Studying air flow patterns, the floor of the stove in the above is much closer to the glass.

For future reference, the King is 9" deep, Princess 6" deep and the 20's and 30's are 3".

Being that much closer to front door glass brings higher temps and less air flow obstruction.

My KE40 glass stays 50% cleaner than my 1107 did. (My wood is also a year dryer!)

Either way, the low and slow deposits just go away went burned like a tube stove...meaning same kg/h burn rate.

Maybe possible to lay fire bricks on the stove's floor to elevate the floor plus these bricks reflect the heat toward the fire and could help to have better results for the glass and the combustion ?????

 

[stoveliker]

Maybe possible to lay fire bricks on the stove's floor to elevate the floor plus these bricks reflect the heat toward the fire and could help to have better results for the glass and the combustion ?????

Maybe. But shorter burn times because less space to stuff fuel...

 

[nortcan]

Maybe. But shorter burn times because less space to stuff fuel...

It was especially for the deeper floors like 9 and 6 inches deep as described in a previous post. Just an idea.

 

[stoveliker]

It was especially for the deeper floors like 9 and 6 inches deep as described in a previous post. Just an idea.

I know. I'm not sure what it would do to warranty (... weight vs construction, burn pattern and thus efficiency (EPA qualification?)) but regardless of which stove you talk about, taking 3 or 6 inches off with bricks decreases the fuel capacity and thus the burn time.

 

[clancey]

I know the secondary stoves without the catalytic have cleaner glass because they would burn hotter and do any of these have long burn times like maybe 8 hours before he would have to reload and then he would not have to worry about replacing the expensive catalytic heating apparatus in the stove----just asking here---curious ---I am certainly no expert for I never burned a piece of wood yet but just asking especially in regard to the tax credits as well as not having a gunk up screen (catalytic) if the wood is not seasoned well or burning the wrong items. I do know the catalytics are less work you set it and it runs and the air is cleaner outside but as far as a pretty flame is concerned it would seem to be just smoldering coals in time...Give the gentleman more to think about because I am in the same boat as him deciding on what stove for my small house...I decided on one of the J.A. Roby wood cook stoves and I just hope I do not get some much heat where I have to leave my tiny house==lol lol...Have fun in your decision making Sheadu061 Mrs Clancey..

 

[begreen]

Yes, the PE Alderlea T5 or Super can easily achieve 8 hr burn times. My next-door neighbor averages 10+ hrs on his. Tom Oyen reported many years ago that this firebox was the longest burning in his shop. They got a 16 hr overnight burn and still had hot coals in the morning in his shop test.

 

[BKVP]

One take away has to be ..."non catalytic stoves [we should call them secondary combustion], can get away with burning wet or green wood."

First, burning less than ideal wood results in more particulates. This not only makes the future of wood burning problematic, but it also reinforces the negative narrative "my neighbors stove smokes all the time." Obviously, any stove trying to burn wet wood will have problems.

Also, combustors are no more costly than components of clean combustion in secondary stoves. Except cracks and warpage in either tube or baffles are often not obvious.
As I have tremendous respect for bholler, he acknowledged that he also sees tubes and baffles that need replacing. Price 3 or 4 tubes at your local shop and you'll see that combustors are no more costly. Are there more robust designs than others, yes. Just as there are better and more proven designs in catalytic stoves.
I've posted this before....we must all conduct annual maintenance and periodic inspections of our stoves. Don't be afraid of pulling tunes or baffles or combustor.

This audience has the talent and respect to effect change! Keep up the good work...and correcting misinformation.

 

[nortcan]

I know. I'm not sure what it would do to warranty (... weight vs construction, burn pattern and thus efficiency (EPA qualification?)) but regardless of which stove you talk about, taking 3 or 6 inches off with bricks decreases the fuel capacity and thus the burn time.

The idea is to just place one layer of fire brick over the stove's floor, f. bricks are about 1.5 inche high and see how it works. My English doesn't always says what I want to.

 

[BKVP]

The idea is to just place one layer of fire brick over the stove's floor, f. bricks are about 1.5 inche high and see how it works. My English doesn't always says what I want to.

Your English is just fine. By increasing the overall height profile of the brick it would bring the fire that much closer to the glass.

However, most folks that purchase deep stoves do so without thinking about reducing that benefit.

 

[begreen]

Green wood in any stove is going to provide a lousy heating experience for any design stove, though non-cat stove owners don't need to worry about damage if they must burn some poorly seasoned wood because some schmuck sold them a bad lot. They also need not worry if they put in some icy splits or someone starts the fire with some paper that has metallic inks. Not encouraging this, but stuff happens, especially if multiple people are running the stove.

In general, the operating cost of a non-cat is less. Yes, if one has an older VC that may be the exception, but cracks in tubes or baffles are not that common in modern stoves since they switched to stainless for them. bholler has seen probably every problem that is out there over the years, but that does not make these issues common. Tubes and baffles are not consumables like a catalyst is. In the 16 yrs that this forum has been online only a handfull of tube crack issues have shown up, mostly with older Lopis. But true, people that have stoves with fragile baffles should respect them and not overload the stove. This goes for cat or non cat stoves that have composite baffles. And yes, abuse like overfiring can damage parts in a stove, true of all stoves. FWIW, I have put less than $50 in our stove in 12 yrs. and over 30 cords burned so far. Knock on wood, it looks like it should be good for another 12 yrs. with just gaskets and at some point some firebricks replaced.

 

[BKVP]

Green wood in any stove is going to provide a lousy heating experience for any design stove, though non-cat stove owners don't need to worry about damage if they must burn some poorly seasoned wood because some schmuck sold them a bad lot. They also need not worry if they put in some icy splits or someone starts the fire with some paper that has metallic inks. Not encouraging this, but stuff happens, especially if multiple people are running the stove.

In general, the operating cost of a non-cat is less. Yes, if one has an older VC that may be the exception, but cracks in tubes or baffles are not that common in modern stoves since they switched to stainless for them. bholler has seen probably every problem that is out there over the years, but that does not make these issues common. Tubes and baffles are not consumables like a catalyst is. In the 16 yrs that this forum has been online only a handfull of tube crack issues have shown up, mostly with older Lopis. But true, people that have stoves with fragile baffles should respect them and not overload the stove. This goes for cat or non cat stoves that have composite baffles. And yes, abuse like overfiring can damage parts in a stove, true of all stoves. FWIW, I have put less than $50 in our stove in 12 yrs. and over 30 cords burned so far. Knock on wood, it looks like it should be good for another 12 yrs. with just gaskets and at some point some firebricks replaced.

I visit 200 retailers a years. Tubes, baffles, refractories, Cera blankets are consumables. I have rung them up on dealers registers...quite a few times. Definitely some more than others. Recently while helping a dealer I invoiced 4 tubes at $80 each. He stocks them and keeps a good supply.

 

[begreen]

And I have been here for 16 yrs, reading and addressing thousands of problems. Tubes and baffles are not consumables like cats are, discounting abuse and user error. And ceramic blankets show up in cat stoves too.

sheadu061 there are dozens of threads on this topic. Search on cat vs non-cat . Here are a few:

Cat vs. Non-Cat

Hello all, newbie here. After seeing other posts, I know you all will want the following before I even pose a question! You are all sticklers for detail which I can appreciate. Kalamazoo, Michigan (cold, 115" of snowfall this year!) 1965 built ranch, 2200 sq. ft., walkout basement...

www.hearth.com

Thermal Shock??? Cat stove VS Non Cat

I have seen the discussion of Thermal Shock to the stove from engaging the Catalysts before the stove has warmed up. That makes sense. But I have been wondering about the non cat stoves. I have no experience with them but if I am correct, once you get the wood burning you close the dampers...

www.hearth.com

Cat vs non-Cat & Chimney Choice for Weekend Burning

Hi - I am going to install a high-efficiency wood-burning fireplace (with an OAK) in a weekend home in the casktill moutians of NY. the installation is on an interior wall with the chimney snaking up various closet areas. this is really a 1.5 story building so there is no attic to speak of. i am...

www.hearth.com

cat vs non-cat

I have had some dealers tell me to buy a non-catalytic stove due the cost of the catalytic converter and the fact that I will need to replace it in about 3-4 years? Thoughts? Thanks

www.hearth.com

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/cat-vs-non-cat-half-time-report.79181
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/catalyst-vs-non-catalyst.80902
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/pacific-energy-super-27-or-dutchwest-2461.80584
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/so-the-shopping-begins.78769/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/cat-stove-questions.77818/

Sticking a fork in this one, it has been discussed endlessly and businesses are not supposed to be promoting their products in the forums.