Definitive Pacific Energy EBT test . . .

[rg500930]

i tried adjusting the ebc before and i even took the fiberglass type gasket off so the heat would transfer better(i used high heat sealant around the edge instead)the ebc just seemed to be inconsistent.the boost manifold is the ebc incase you didnt know.if the ebc was on the side or top it would of worked i think.but why on the bottom.looks good on paper but not in theory.
dont get me wrong .great stove.lots of heat.think i used a match maybe 4 times since end of october.great burn times.glass stays nice and clean.and supper easy to operate.i just flatten the coals around and through more wood in.and i still havent turned my furnace on once this burning season

 

[rg500930]

and i was just thinking.if you put wood into the stove while its hot.the baffle with burn off any gasses/smoke.thats what the air baffle is for.and the air that is supplied to the baffle is not adjustable.its not adjusted by the ebc or anything.its a open hole.

 

[Jimbob]

Quite the long, but interesting thread has popped up....
I'll just add an image:

 

[Jimbob]

The crappy pic above was supposed to show that the new Summits do in fact have a cast-iron ash lip.
Also, I have occasionally noticed the EBT open on my stove (I don't check it very often).
It is interesting to note that on my old Summit, the EBT flap was NOT visible with the drawer taken out. On my current Summit(replaced under warranty) I can see the hole and the flap.

 

[MovingOffGrid]

My humble apologies to all Summit owners. I was the Ash Lip complainer!

This weekend, after weeks of discovering a multitude of happy Summit owners out there, I put aside my ash lip fetish, held my nose and bought a new Summit on it's other significant merits, but to my great joy, when I started to unpack it from the crate, unlike the rather flimsy floor demo model's ash lip at my local dealer (obviously numerous years older), my new stove has a beautiful, much sturdier, manly cast iron ash lip. Ahhhh ... stove heaven!

My new practical toy is now setup on my chimney and purring away happily, even handling my oversize draft and semi-seasoned wood - so far I am impressed. Moving from my Cascade Triumph to this stove, feels like going from a 1970's Dodge with push button shifter on the dash board, to a smooth, sexy, modern Mercedes. Ok ... maybe not quite that drastic a change, but, as my kids say, it's a sweet ride.

Great thread going here ... I only hope there is no hazing involved in joining this Summit fraternity !

 

[karri0n]

Can someone explain how exactly the thing closes off at higher temps? After much explanation, I do understand the requirement for more primary air at 750+ temps, but if it's a simple bimetallic, what exactly is going to cause it to close off should the stovetop reach 800...900...950...kaboom?


IMHO, I wouldn't call it EBT, either. ACAD (additional combustion air device), HTERD(High temp emissions reduction device), BCAI(bimetallically controlled air inlet) would be better names.



edit: thanks scarab... should have watched the vid first.

 

[jwscarab]

Hi karriOn, Its like a lobe on a camshaft. Once the stove gets to 750ish the shaft rotates and turns and it pushes against the EBT door (or valve) and it opens. As the temps get higher, 900 or so, the camshaft (EBT coil) continues to rotate the same direction and the valve closes (sliding past the door causing it to close). As the stove cools back down, the camshaft reverses or coil retracts once again hitting the door and opening, then closing, as it slides back past the door.

BeGreen did an awesome vidoe on it working here.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1mxVQ3weZc

But what I can tell on my stovetop temps.....750 = open, then I assume at close to 900 = close (have not seen that unless I was asleep or away), then reopen as it cools back off. Not sure what happens after the kaboom......lol.

 

[BrotherBart]

I would be more interested in how long a Summit/Alderlea can cruise at 450 to 500 than how many hours it can burn over six hundred. I have a pretty good sized house and a couple of hours at 650+ even on the nights when we got down to zero would have had us sleeping in the garage. With the house warmed up into the 70's a nice long 450 to 500 degree burn in the 30-NC (the other Big Dog) keeps the place plenty toasty. If I needed constant 700 degree heat, and I did it try it a couple of times, I would move.

Everybody seems to buy cat stoves to get nice long medium temp burns and they seem to buy Summits to peel the paint off of the walls. I guess I am in the middle. I put three big splits in the 30 N/S or E/W according to mood and twenty minutes later dial it in at 500 with pretty flames, go to bed and nine hours later get up to a 72-73 degree house and a 300 degree stove then put three more in it and do it again for the daytime.

And yes stoves can do that with perfectly clear exhaust and clean flues. If the wood is dry. If the wood isn't dry you can burn at 1,000 degrees and still crap up the pipe. Been there done that.

 

[crazy_dan]

The T6 ash lip looks pretty skookum, but I haven't seen one up close. The ash lip on the Summit pedestal however, is lightweight, bendy and flexible - I could easily bend it with my hands as it's just screwed on, unlike the welded on tank like ash lip on the Regency that you can stand on.

Thanks for the feedback on the ash pan ... I may just save the money then and forgo it. Still hoping someone can tell me that the Summit is so much superior to the Regency in the burn that I will like it better, dainty little ash lip and all ;-)

I did not get the "Ash System" on mine and I did pocket the extra @ $200
I have not regretted that decision at all.

 

[begreen]

I would be more interested in how long a Summit/Alderlea can cruise at 450 to 500 than how many hours it can burn over six hundred. I have a pretty good sized house and a couple of hours at 650+ even on the nights when we got down to zero would have had us sleeping in the garage. With the house warmed up into the 70's a nice long 450 to 500 degree burn in the 30-NC (the other Big Dog) keeps the place plenty toasty. If I needed constant 700 degree heat, and I did it try it a couple of times, I would move.

Everybody seems to buy cat stoves to get nice long medium temp burns and they seem to buy Summits to peel the paint off of the walls. I guess I am in the middle. I put three big splits in the 30 N/S or E/W according to mood and twenty minutes later dial it in at 500 with pretty flames, go to bed and nine hours later get up to a 72-73 degree house and a 300 degree stove then put three more in it and do it again for the daytime.

And yes stoves can do that with perfectly clear exhaust and clean flues. If the wood is dry. If the wood isn't dry you can burn at 1,000 degrees and still crap up the pipe. Been there done that.

Man I can't wait until we are burning hardwood only.

 

[BrotherBart]

Man I an't wait until we are burning hardwood only.

They are really LARGE splits. I prefer to burn it E/W because of the way the air tubes are arranged it get the most heat out of the wood. It just keeps a constant tan on the forearms from reaching over those coals to pack the back. The Summit with those holes aimed sideways looks like a N/S burners dream come true. But cigar burning those big suckers in the 30 ain't so bad either. Once you disable that blow-torch "zipper" in the front so the air is distributed evenly through the load like the PE stoves do it.

Tom is right. It was damned smart of PE to design those stoves that way. Gets through the balls to the wall test but lets you guys burn it like a real wood stove for daily heating. All the rest seem to compromise at the expense of the daily user of the stoves. I always wondered why PE didn't say anything about EBT in the manual. Turns out it is because it really has nothing to do with using the stove.

 

[begreen]

I'm burning 6-9" full width splits loaded E/W. 3 of them would last about 4-5 hrs. Pack another layer on top of them and I get 6-8 with stove top at 200 by the end. Softwood sux 'cept for shoulder burning.

 

[10-cc]

Still don’t get it. Tested the stove for hours all spectrum possible: from 400F to over 1000 top stove temps.
Never I saw the EBT opens a snitch..

I will let the stove cool off completely and start from scratch.

 

[jpl1nh]

I would be more interested in how long a Summit/Alderlea can cruise at 450 to 500 than how many hours it can burn over six hundred. I have a pretty good sized house and a couple of hours at 650+ even on the nights when we got down to zero would have had us sleeping in the garage. With the house warmed up into the 70's a nice long 450 to 500 degree burn in the 30-NC (the other Big Dog) keeps the place plenty toasty. If I needed constant 700 degree heat, and I did it try it a couple of times, I would move.

Everybody seems to buy cat stoves to get nice long medium temp burns and they seem to buy Summits to peel the paint off of the walls. I guess I am in the middle. I put three big splits in the 30 N/S or E/W according to mood and twenty minutes later dial it in at 500 with pretty flames, go to bed and nine hours later get up to a 72-73 degree house and a 300 degree stove then put three more in it and do it again for the daytime.

And yes stoves can do that with perfectly clear exhaust and clean flues. If the wood is dry. If the wood isn't dry you can burn at 1,000 degrees and still crap up the pipe. Been there done that.

BB, when you're burning at 500 stove top, what do you estimate the firebox temp is at and do you still have secondaries? Reason I ask is because I know in my Woodstock, 500 stove top translates to 1000 firebox, just about enough I would think for secondaries to stay lit in a non-cat, but maybe not. If not, while you can burn a clear exhaust stream and not dirty your flue, would that burn pass an EPA emissions test? Would my cat-stove burning at 400 stove top (800 firebox) pass emissions?

 

[jwscarab]

10-cc. I'm with ya.....kinda. Mine seems a little inconsistant. This morning I ran her up to 750 before shutting her down on air. Let her purr for 20 more minutes and it seemed to have a lot of flames - still at 700+. I figured by then the temps must have transfered around the firebox to the EBT and opened her up - I pulled the drawer and looked - closed! It still gets plenty of air when burning hot with primary closed.

I guess really I am on the fence on the EBT. The stove is definitly and awesome stove which I would buy again in a heartbeat. SO easy to use. And yes, you can easliy hold mid range temps too!! I'm going to leave my EBT installed and not really worry about it I guess. I am glad I now understand it tho and understand if it is important (or not).

The EBT, well maybe its like a rear spoiler on a 1967 Shelby GT500. The spoiler may hold the rear tires on the road a tad better at 120mph, but without the spoiler, you still have a 1967 Shelby GT500.

 

[BrotherBart]

"BB, when you’re burning at 500 stove top, what do you estimate the firebox temp is at and do you still have secondaries? Reason I ask is because I know in my Woodstock, 500 stove top translates to 1000 firebox, just about enough I would think for secondaries to stay lit in a non-cat, but maybe not. If not, while you can burn a clear exhaust stream and not dirty your flue, would that burn pass an EPA emissions test? Would my cat-stove burning at 400 stove top (800 firebox) pass emissions? "

I really don't know how hot it is in the firebox but secondary combustion is occurring. Secondary combustion is more than the appearance of flames blasting in front of the tubes across the top of the firebox. When mine is burning the gases not consumed by the flames ignite at the baffle when they are injected with heated air by the tubes. I don't have a clue, and I don't care if it would pass the EPA cert testing. It don't smoke, it don't stink and it heats my house. The EPA doesn't give a damn about it heating my house and I don't give a damn about the EPA.

Your cat stove should be fine at 800 firebox temp because the cat is probably running around 1,100 to 1,200 burning the gases.

 

[iceman]

"BB, when you’re burning at 500 stove top, what do you estimate the firebox temp is at and do you still have secondaries? Reason I ask is because I know in my Woodstock, 500 stove top translates to 1000 firebox, just about enough I would think for secondaries to stay lit in a non-cat, but maybe not. If not, while you can burn a clear exhaust stream and not dirty your flue, would that burn pass an EPA emissions test? Would my cat-stove burning at 400 stove top (800 firebox) pass emissions? "

I really don't know how hot it is in the firebox but secondary combustion is occurring. Secondary combustion is more than the appearance of flames blasting in front of the tubes across the top of the firebox. When mine is burning the gases not consumed by the flames ignite at the baffle when they are injected with heated air by the tubes. I don't have a clue, and I don't care if it would pass the EPA cert testing. It don't smoke, it don't stink and it heats my house. The EPA doesn't give a damn about it heating my house and I don't give a damn about the EPA.

Your cat stove should be fine at 800 firebox temp because the cat is probably running around 1,100 to 1,200 burning the gases.

SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE LEADER BB!
lets see if we can get YOU a job running the EPA i am sure it would benefit us a lot more instead benefiting their pockets'
cause you can bet they don't give a damn about us!

 

[juniormarbles]

Over the last three days I have read all treads and posts about the EBT system in PE stoves. The reason: I wanted to understand how the two air regulating systems work, because my new Summit burns softwood too fast (not enough coals to reignite logs the next morning.)

Here are my conclusions:

The patent and its application in large fire boxes like the Summit seem sound and should work, if all variables (type of wood, draft conditions, burn temperatures) can be predicted and are optimized.

And there may be the rub:
One variable that seems not to get much attention as an explanation for the different experiences owners have with the unit is the original calibration and subsequent re-calibration of a secondary air flap actuator driven by a rather imprecise bimetal spring.

Temperature-sensitive bi-metals are by themselves rather sloppy in their movement, and especially over time- they all tire and their rate of expansion decreases continuously, and from the fist day of operation.

Especially long bi-metals, as used in the EBT actuator suffer from this. Add to that the variable levels of quality control during initial installation and calibration. Then add to that the patented cam-function, where the opening movement of the flap is not continuous, but interrupted by a sharp reversal at at precise point (when the cam hits the corner of the 90º flap- see Tom’s graphs and the YouTube movie), and it becomes clear that some type of owner check or calibration of the EBS function should be provided, or at least some benchmarks, where an owner can compare his thermostat’s action against the norm.

The only objective standard that the stove operator can use to check his EBT opening/closing sequence against seems to me firebox bottom temperatures. I am not aware that PE has issued any guidelines for calibrating the EBT, but suspect that such is described in the service manual for PE stoves?

Alternatively, can anyone with access to factory installation/calibration procedures share what temperatures PE prescribes to check correct calibration of the three vital positions of the air flap (low temp opening, full open, high temp full closed)?

Once I have that info, I can then check, with a decent magnetic stove thermometer, the opening/closing temps myself, and, if necessary, re-calibrate.

JM

P.S.: The level of care and passion for this topic expressed by the many posters should be reason enough for a representative of PE to chime in. I am disappointed that this opportunity to generate good will for PE is not seized by their management.

 

[madison]

jr:

I think the EBT function (or malfunction) is probably NOT your problem with fast wood consumption. I would suggest to rule out the EBT mechanism as the root cause, cover the entire EBT hole and burn for a few days. I would bet you would see NO change with the EBT covered.

What I would strongly suggest if you have not done so, is to carefully check ALL gasket seals (glass and door), and realign/fit the door if it does not pass the dollar bill gasket check. AND most importantly check that the ash chute is completely closed. All of the above has been implicated in allowing extra air into the firebox.

I can get 12 hr burns, not necessarily meaningful heat for 12 hrs, (stove would be down to 150 degrees for the last few hrs) but this is with not completely seasoned hardwoods.

Maybe if you describe your wood, chimney etc some others will chime in, ie damper suggestions.

 

[juniormarbles]

Excellent point!

My window seals look very well applied and seem tight. I used the wooden stick test- press against the glass along all edges and observe flame attraction or lack of to that area.

But my dollar bill test (I used an even thicker post card) failed: through the seals are fresh and fully covering (the stove is ten days old) the door is quite warped outwards in its horizontal dimension, especially towards the latch. This has been measured by me and the dealer with a straight edge. The warp is big enough that neither hinge nor latch adjustments can compensate to get a tight post card fit on the latch side of the door.

Though the distributor had been less than cooperative ("in more than twenty years that would be the first warped door. We don't believe you!"), the dealer is superbly handling it and has now ordered a new door.

Despite the door issue, I can see the color of the coals being much brighter around the air intake(s) an assume that it also gets too much air from there.

What I am not clear about, and why I need the opening/closing temperature data for the EBT unit, is whether the primary air intake in its closed position (about 20% air) is the culprit or whether it's the EBT.

I am trying to approach this very methodical, and will not change more than one variable at a time.

Please chime in on the trouble shooting sequence:

1. adress door sealing
2. get EBT temperature data and compare
3. if all that is working properly, address primary air by possibly grinding some of the block off that prevents closure to more than 80%

Let me know what you think.

JM

 

[karri0n]

Monsieur Marbles,


The warped door is certainly an issue, but before you go making warranty-voiding mods to your stove, you should check other options. Lots of folks don't mod their stove and get enough of a burn to have enough coals to light off again after 12 hours. If you are experiencing this issue, it's more likely that high draft is the issue than the air inlet is too wide, as the stove is engineered and mfd with the air inlet being as such. It's mostly accepted on this forum that the PE summit is one of, if not the best non catalytic stoves on the market(please don't firebomb my house, hearthstone owners), and it's also a close to $3000 piece of hardware. Since you're in AZ, I would say the issue is probably *not* having far too much draft due to extreme low outdoor temps, but if you have an exceptionally tall chimney, you could easily be experiencing the effects of over draft. It seems to me that installing a damper in the stovepipe is a much simpler and easily removable mod than grinding away on the unit itself. If you provided us with a basic layout of your chimney and stove setup, we could offer you lots of advice for extending your burn and remedying the issues you are experiencing.

 

[karl]

If you read in the begining part of this post, you will see the explaination of how EBT works. It's name is really a misnomer. It doesn't extend the burn at all. It allows the stove to pass emissions with primary air intake that can be closed more than most other stoves of its size.

As for short burn times with software wood. I have been burning poplar and 10-12 reloads are easily done. I leave the primary air open about an inch too.

How tall is your chimney and how far do you close the air?

 

[juniormarbles]

Thanks for the chimney concerns, pointers, and input.

I believe I have a below, not above, average draft situation, and verified this through three different stoves and a couple of stove experts and chimney sweeps in the past: I have a triple-pipe chimney (for fireplace, oil furnace, woodstove) with a zig zag jut in the cement flue for the woodstove, so if anything, my draft could be improved, not further restricted.

Witness the fact that I have yet to figure out reload of the Summit without smoke choking my lungs. (I am talking about softwood dried and split for 1-2 years)
I tried everything: primary open, closed, open door very slowly, then fast, wait until the outer layers of the wood have burned down....

The only decent smoke-free reload scenario for this stove seems to be: wait until only bright glowing coals are left in the fire box, and with primary wide open, open door very slowly and quickly reload, before the new wood starts stinking into the room with the door still open during reloading. Every other condition pushes smoke into the room.

All this to me is not an indication of too much draft. YET: the burn process, once under way, is too fast, compared to the glowing reports of 8-10 hrs burn time.

Another problem for me: Not finding a decent woodstove specialist who sells this brand in my area AND is experienced enough to interpret the burn variables, once installed, and come up with a solution to the fast burn. That is why I inquired here about the possibility that maybe my thermostat may be off.

I am still eager to get temperature data for the secondary air intake/thermostat.

 

[karl]

Jm,

We need to know more about your set up. The Summit is a really forgiving stove.

How tall is your chimney?

Do you have a liner?

Have you checked your door for air leaks?

Is it burning all the wood up or is it leaving unburned pieces?

This really doesn't make sense. A lazy draft and short burn times. I some times get a little bit of back puffing, but not very often and only when it's not very cold out.

 

[snowtime]

Check your door but also check your glass. Mine came from the factory with a major air leak through the glass gasket. The guy at the factory didn't even get the gasket in place. Easy fix though.
As far as burn times I have found that NS is what works for this stove. You can get more wood in [fill all the cracks with small stuff] and you can shut it down earlier because the NS burns so well. I have all sizes of splits as I did not know what would work for this stove. I now use the longer EW stuff for daytime burning and the shorter for the NS for overnight. This is opposite to most other stoves but believe me it works.