Fire Chief or Shelter EPA stoves feedback

Mrpelletburner

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2011
612
N.H.
Is that with the draft blower going?

What temperature is the firebox? What's the temperature of the flue?
Yes, draft blower and main blower running. You can see at the end of the video the main blower shut off.

Stack 125degs
Upper left corner of the door area 425degs
.05 draft

All other seams of the flute pipe pulls in the flame, this connection does the opposite, only when the blower is running.
 

Turd Ferguson

New Member
Jan 26, 2018
54
South Central MA
I can't see how the HVAC blower would have an effect on smoke/by-products of combustion escaping the flue pipe. Does the draft blower continue to run the whole video?
 

maple1

Minister of Fire
Sep 15, 2011
10,092
Nova Scotia
If your blower is pushing air out the flu pipe connection (I think that is what I'm seeing?), that would be something fairly seriously amiss.
 

brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
4,390
NE Ohio
The blower is pushing air out around the flue pipe where it comes through the outer air jacket. The collar must not fit too tight there.
If you want to tighten things up there I'd get some wood stove door gasket material and put a wrap around there nice n tight...kinda tucked into the gap...then get a 6" hose clamp to put around it to hold things in place.
 

Mrpelletburner

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2011
612
N.H.
Perhaps I need to buy and should of purchased flue pipe from the local stove shop store vs lowes.

headbang.gif
 

Mrpelletburner

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2011
612
N.H.
Witness this over and over tonight. Draft blower not running, stove surface ~800degrees, stack ~250 degrees. Didn’t open door or adjust anything. Heard the smoke igniting, causing the “poof affect” sitting upstairs. Scary stuff...

 

laynes69

Minister of Fire
Oct 2, 2006
2,444
Ashland OH
That's either from a lack of oxygen or poor draft. If possible, open up the air a little. Have you checked the chimney to make sure things are clean?
 

Mrpelletburner

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2011
612
N.H.
Just and I mean just installed a SS liner on Saturday.

Basement door opened about 4”.
 
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Medic21

Minister of Fire
Feb 26, 2017
553
Northern Indiana
I fixed that problem by burning longer. Turn your thermostat up and burn longer. I load a little lighter as it warms up because of this. If you get the wood burnt down past the point of it smoldering and getting it to hold a flame in the box it will stop. This is why my house gets up to 75-77 degrees at times.
 

JRHAWK9

Minister of Fire
Jan 8, 2014
1,230
Wisconsin Dells, WI
Just thought I'd throw this out there.

I know of a guy who has a Kuuma VF100 who overturned the adjustable pot on the computer which controls the primary air intake based on firebox temps and therefore screwing it up. He then had no idea where it was set at. He just took a guess and left it there. Soon after this happened, he was noticing buff-backs on almost every load about an hour after re-loading and also reduced heat output. My guess was wherever he had it set at was outside of the normal operating range and therefore the computer was not controlling the primary air correctly. He ended up contacting Daryl and they sent him a spare computer so he could continue to burn while he sent his in to have the damaged pot replaced. As soon as he swapped computers the issue went away and he regained his heat output. Same goes when he received his computer back fixed. The final bill to fix his computer was something like $25, including the cost to ship.

Anyway, I'm telling you this because the only difference between the furnace running great and not having back-puffs vs not running well and having back-puffs was simply the control of the primary air. Everything else remained the same. This maybe the case with yours as well. You just may have to figure out what needs to be done to give the firebox the air it needs.
 

Turd Ferguson

New Member
Jan 26, 2018
54
South Central MA
Just thought I'd throw this out there.

I know of a guy who has a Kuuma VF100 who overturned the adjustable pot on the computer which controls the primary air intake based on firebox temps and therefore screwing it up. He then had no idea where it was set at. He just took a guess and left it there. Soon after this happened, he was noticing buff-backs on almost every load about an hour after re-loading and also reduced heat output. My guess was wherever he had it set at was outside of the normal operating range and therefore the computer was not controlling the primary air correctly. He ended up contacting Daryl and they sent him a spare computer so he could continue to burn while he sent his in to have the damaged pot replaced. As soon as he swapped computers the issue went away and he regained his heat output. Same goes when he received his computer back fixed. The final bill to fix his computer was something like $25, including the cost to ship.

Anyway, I'm telling you this because the only difference between the furnace running great and not having back-puffs vs not running well and having back-puffs was simply the control of the primary air. Everything else remained the same. This maybe the case with yours as well. You just may have to figure out what needs to be done to give the firebox the air it needs.
There is exactly no control that we have over the primary or secondary air intakes. It's "pre-set" at the factory by riveting the intake door to the inducer in place. I have been assured by Fire Chief's tech support that if I drill this rivet out, I immediately void my warranty. Thus, I/we have no control whatsoever over any air controls on this unit.
 

JRHAWK9

Minister of Fire
Jan 8, 2014
1,230
Wisconsin Dells, WI
There is exactly no control that we have over the primary or secondary air intakes. It's "pre-set" at the factory by riveting the intake door to the inducer in place. I have been assured by Fire Chief's tech support that if I drill this rivet out, I immediately void my warranty. Thus, I/we have no control whatsoever over any air controls on this unit.
yikes! Sorry, I'm guessing this was mentioned before and I just missed it.

Was this something you knew about when you purchased it? This would have been a deal breaker for sure.
 

Turd Ferguson

New Member
Jan 26, 2018
54
South Central MA
yikes! Sorry, I'm guessing this was mentioned before and I just missed it.

Was this something you knew about when you purchased it? This would have been a deal breaker for sure.
I wasn't aware of it. I certainly would have raised an objection over it for sure.
 

Turd Ferguson

New Member
Jan 26, 2018
54
South Central MA
It's like a car manufacturer knowingly leaving the throttle plate off of a carb. It will run great at one RPM/load and that's it.
I think they needed to rivet the door shut because apparently people were overfiring their stoves with leaving it at full tilt. Either that, or they had to keep it like that to get their EPA certification.
 

Mrpelletburner

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2011
612
N.H.
Called the company to inquire about the double rivet. When the stove was first released, the flap was not riveted and they discovered us "wood burners" like to play with settings ;P This was causing some stoves to crack due to thermal runaway. Solution..... add an extra rivet.

I feel a spin draft dial would of been a nice option to have when starting or adding wood, something to allow extra air to enter.

Either case, I think Medic21 is right... Need to load a bit less to match the weather outside. This is all a learning curve.
 

Turd Ferguson

New Member
Jan 26, 2018
54
South Central MA
Called the company to inquire about the double rivet. When the stove was first released, the flap was not riveted and they discovered us "wood burners" like to play with settings ;P This was causing some stoves to crack due to thermal runaway. Solution..... add an extra rivet.

I feel a spin draft dial would of been a nice option to have when starting or adding wood, something to allow extra air to enter.

Either case, I think Medic21 is right... Need to load a bit less to match the weather outside. This is all a learning curve.
That confirms what I had heard from them as well. Yes, I agree, we need control over the air system, it's not their fault that some people don't know how to run their stoves.
 

3fordasho

Minister of Fire
Jul 20, 2007
830
South Central Minnesota
That confirms what I had heard from them as well. Yes, I agree, we need control over the air system, it's not their fault that some people don't know how to run their stoves.
If you look at the Drolet Tundra thread, you will see that some of us have added additional control to the air inlet flap dependent on flue temperature.
A similar thing could be done for the Shelter furnace, only you would control the air inlet motor. Heck you might be able to get fancy and variable speed control that inlet motor.
 
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Turd Ferguson

New Member
Jan 26, 2018
54
South Central MA
If you look at the Drolet Tundra thread, you will see that some of us have added additional control to the air inlet flap dependent on flue temperature.
A similar thing could be done for the Shelter furnace, only you would control the air inlet motor. Heck you might be able to get fancy and variable speed control that inlet motor.
I'll do that after the warranty is up, but not in the interim. I'd rather make Fire Chief fix their self-made problem.
 

3fordasho

Minister of Fire
Jul 20, 2007
830
South Central Minnesota
I'll do that after the warranty is up, but not in the interim. I'd rather make Fire Chief fix their self-made problem.

All these low tech, low cost furnaces have the issue. Tundra no different. The Kuuma and some wood gasification boilers don't have these issues but they cost $5-10k+. Some of the difference in cost is the additional temp sensors, temp controls and stepper/servo motor(s) to control primary and secondary air automatically via temperature or even a lambda sensor in the flue stream.

If I hadn't modified my Tundra I don't think I could live with it, warranty be dam***. What's to go wrong? it's a steel box. If anything my additional control has prevented it from cracking and causing a warranty claim.
 

Turd Ferguson

New Member
Jan 26, 2018
54
South Central MA
All these low tech, low cost furnaces have the issue. Tundra no different. The Kuuma and some wood gasification boilers don't have these issues but they cost $5-10k+. Some of the difference in cost is the additional temp sensors, temp controls and stepper/servo motor(s) to control primary and secondary air automatically via temperature or even a lambda sensor in the flue stream.

If I hadn't modified my Tundra I don't think I could live with it, warranty be dam***. What's to go wrong? it's a steel box. If anything my additional control has prevented it from cracking and causing a warranty claim.
Unfortunately companies look for each and every way and method to get out of having to cover a warranty claim. I'm sure they would immediately point the finger at you and say "Look! You modified it!"
 

laynes69

Minister of Fire
Oct 2, 2006
2,444
Ashland OH
Personally I'm not a fan of forced draft myself, been there done that. I don't know how Hy-C tested their furnaces, but something tells me the draft blower flap was probably open for testing. To close it and rivet it, if it wasn't tested that way would make it illegal I would think (for the company). I have a natural draft furnace, but there's provisions in the manual to adjust for extra air if needed. In the case of firecheif, by riveting the flap shut, they're assuming that all the drafts, wood load, moisture etc. remain equal across users, when its not true. If you load the furnace and it's at draft requirements and it's operated per manual, it should not be puffing smoke. I see that as an issue. Hopefully the company figures it out. As far as cracking, hearing from the face temps of the furnace and possibly glowing there's no doubt it will happen. The firebox should be fully lined and insulated so the furnace can come up to operating temps. With good seasoned wood, within 10 to 15 on a full load, our furnace becomes an inferno and it can be closed down. If the wood is unseasoned, it could take 45 minutes to an hour with little to no heat output.
 

brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
4,390
NE Ohio
In the case of firecheif, by riveting the flap shut, they're assuming that all the drafts, wood load, moisture etc. remain equal across users, when its not true
The only way you would ever see a draft that is even remotely held steady at a given spec would be if there was a barometric damper installed...do they call for one on these?
 

woodey

Member
Feb 8, 2018
107
ST. Lawrence Valley N.Y.
Called the company to inquire about the double rivet. When the stove was first released, the flap was not riveted and they discovered us "wood burners" like to play with settings ;P This was causing some stoves to crack due to thermal runaway. Solution..... add an extra rivet.

I feel a spin draft dial would of been a nice option to have when starting or adding wood, something to allow extra air to enter.

Either case, I think Medic21 is right... Need to load a bit less to match the weather outside. This is all a learning curve.
Called the company to inquire about the double rivet. When the stove was first released, the flap was not riveted and they discovered us "wood burners" like to play with settings ;P This was causing some stoves to crack due to thermal runaway. Solution..... add an extra rivet.

I feel a spin draft dial would of been a nice option to have when starting or adding wood, something to allow extra air to enter.

Either case, I think Medic21 is right... Need to load a bit less to match the weather outside. This is all a learning curve.
Sorry if I missed this in a earlier post but does the top of your chimney exceed the peak of your roof? If not maybe an extension on the chimney will help draft issues and if it exceeds your peak maybe a termination cap on the chimney (if you dont have one now) will prevent back drafts.