Fire Chief or Shelter EPA stoves feedback

Mrpelletburner

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2011
612
N.H.
Wish I did.. need to mount the manometer so I can capture the readings. Measurement I took 15mins after, no draft blower, was 0.08 wc

Why do you ask?
 

maple1

Minister of Fire
Sep 15, 2011
10,092
Nova Scotia
Wish I did.. need to mount the manometer so I can capture the readings. Measurement I took 15mins after, no draft blower, was 0.08 wc

Why do you ask?
Well, seems like you have a wildly varying draft. So knowing what it is when this happens might shed light. This might be happening at a lull.

My thinking is that this unit needs to have a firm (steady) baseline draft. But the intake restriction (riveted thingie) is limiting that. And something else is causing the wide variations - like varying burn conditions, or winds at the top, or something. It's only a hunch but I think you need more intake air (the riveted thingie is too restrictive), and a baro to even the draft.
 

brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
4,390
NE Ohio
House now smells like smoke... I hate!
I hate that too!
Only time I have experienced this somewhat regularly was after I modded my Yukon furnace to burn cleaner...which worked, but, it was prone to backpuffs then...when I couldn't sort it out, I quit using it to burn wood. Not putting up with that!
It generally did it if I let the fire get too big after loading, then tried to cut the air back too fast. (which "too fast" was actually still pretty slow)
I'm thinking like Maple1, the fluctuating draft and fluctuating intake air (combustion blower turning on/off) is just too much...once that fire gets starved for air...its just a matter of time 'til POOF!
 
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Mrpelletburner

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2011
612
N.H.
So the barometer draft arrived today. Should it be installed to the back of the stove or at the top of the flue?

f0665c50c0248c538f4529a258f06f6c.jpg


e5199584f3146162a213f4159c4ea5b5.jpg
 

JRHAWK9

Minister of Fire
Jan 8, 2014
1,230
Wisconsin Dells, WI
I would install it in the straight section of stove pipe. Make sure the BD itself is level in both the horizontal and vertical direction. The tee can be placed in the stove pipe the way it's positioned, but the BD itself has to be leveled out.

I spy a silver BD damper behind your stove pipe........?
 
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brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
4,390
NE Ohio
So the barometer draft arrived today. Should it be installed to the back of the stove or at the top of the flue?

View attachment 223927

View attachment 223928
It didn't come with install directions? http://www.fieldcontrols.com/filebin/pdfs/Instruction_Manuals/01575700_TypeRC_Rev_B_04-15.pdf
The 1st page shows where to, and where not to put it.
I don't see why you couldn't put it in the middle there somewhere. The only thing with putting it on a slope like that is the baro door itself has to be dead nuts plumb and level. Just loosen the clamp and spin the baro to level once you get the tee mounted. (make sure the opening where the baro goes is perfectly vertical)
To level it perfectly, cut two small 3" long blocks (they hafta be EXACTLY the same length...you can run 'em both through a table saw together) (or you could cheat and use a couple Dominos blocks) then hold the blocks on the tips of the pivot pin ("axle") of the baro door, both at the same time, then you can put a level on the blocks...this part goes much easier with a second person to help.
 
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DoubleB

Minister of Fire
Mar 4, 2014
658
NE Wisconsin
oil burner
I think Jr Hawk is saying that the way the baro damper is mounted for the oil burner is the same idea to mount the baro damper for the wood furnace.

Also, I admit I missed some details in prior pages, but if you want to test with more intake air without voiding the warranty, can you loosen the handle on the loading door enough so it still latches safely but lets in a bit of air? Don't know if it will help (or cause more problems), but I love free and easy experiments.
 

Mrpelletburner

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2011
612
N.H.
3 flashbacks in a row. Stove had hit the 700+ degree mark, draft blower turned off, stove cooled down to ~600 degrees, draft blower kicks back in resulting to the following 3 flashbacks. This time I was able to capture the draft measurements. You will notice that exactly the point of the flashback, the reading goes to 0.





This is what the fire box looked like.

IMG_0192.JPG
 

brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
4,390
NE Ohio
3 flashbacks in a row. Stove had hit the 700+ degree mark, draft blower turned off, stove cooled down to ~600 degrees, draft blower kicks back in resulting to the following 3 flashbacks. This time I was able to capture the draft measurements. You will notice that exactly the point of the flashback, the reading goes to 0.





This is what the fire box looked like.

View attachment 223941
The draft reading actually goes from "suction" to "pressure" for a split second.
That's what the firebox looked like after...but was likely no flames (or very little) in there for a time before the poof...
 

maple1

Minister of Fire
Sep 15, 2011
10,092
Nova Scotia
I don't know what the fix should be, but it seems that the fire is shutting down too fast, when it is really rolling the off gassing.

Ever kill the engine when going downhill on something that has a manual choke, then stab the choke? Instant backfire. From the dump of fresh fuel hitting the hot combustion chamber & exhaust, and igniting even without spark. Likely happens more in the exhaust section or manifold.

Did you ever get a draft spec from them? Looks a bit high on the manometer just before the poof - so high draft might be pulling unburnt gasses to a hot spot where they poof when not supposed to, as they should otherwise have already been burned. But didn't get burned due to an intake being overly restricted. There might be multiple things going on here, and I don't think the bubble gum rivet thing is helping any. This could be getting into design deficiency territory.
 

laynes69

Minister of Fire
Oct 2, 2006
2,444
Ashland OH
Draft doesn't sound like the issue, it has to be lack of air (oxygen). From the looks of it the firebox was hot. When enough air builds up and the smoke ignites, poof. I would open the draft blower more, but that's me.
 

Medic21

Minister of Fire
Feb 26, 2017
553
Northern Indiana
I don't know what the fix should be, but it seems that the fire is shutting down too fast, when it is really rolling the off gassing.

Ever kill the engine when going downhill on something that has a manual choke, then stab the choke? Instant backfire. From the dump of fresh fuel hitting the hot combustion chamber & exhaust, and igniting even without spark. Likely happens more in the exhaust section or manifold.

Did you ever get a draft spec from them? Looks a bit high on the manometer just before the poof - so high draft might be pulling unburnt gasses to a hot spot where they poof when not supposed to, as they should otherwise have already been burned. But didn't get burned due to an intake being overly restricted. There might be multiple things going on here, and I don't think the bubble gum rivet thing is helping any. This could be getting into design deficiency territory.
I'll say it a third time within this thread. Bigger splits when loading full. Get one layer at a time burning and charred good before adding another. If the inducer shuts down and the firebox goes black and smokey turn the heat up. I have had my house at 76 and warmer to get it to a point that the puffing stops. You need a flame to continue to burn in this furnace. Doing this I have not had a puff from this furnace for over a month.

I have my slide, only one rivit in it, taped under 3/8". You cannot, as designed, operate this like a non certified stove and damper it down for a slow burn. It has to have almost no off gassing of the wood when the inducer shuts down.


Not Good
IMG_1105.JPG

Ready to close up:
IMG_1106.JPG
 
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Mrpelletburner

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2011
612
N.H.
From the manual (http://hy-c.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Owners-Manual-FC1000.pdf)

The draft blower has a slide cover located on the side of the motor that is factory preset, with an opening of approximately 3/8”. The cover should be fully closed only when there is a power failure and electricity is lost.


What is not spelled out is, how/where are they measuring 3/8"? I can tell you a 3/8" OD socket does not fit into the largest air opening.

In order to create the most effective draft, the chimney size should not exceed 12 inches, with a maximum .08 water column inches of draft. The flue draft can be measured with the use of a draft gage or manometer. If there is more than .08 water column inches of draft, it can be adjusted with the installation of a flue damper

I am going to contact support again today. Has to be other owners, not on this forum, with the same issues. Stove does throw out some heat, however the flashbacks are getting to be a pain.
 

Mrpelletburner

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2011
612
N.H.
If the inducer shuts down and the firebox goes black and smokey turn the heat up.
I have noticed that the stove will fire great for the first 2+ hours, then nosedive where the firebox goes black and smokey. This happens after I have gone to bed. There is 2 ways I have been able to track night flashbacks... 1) The camp fire smell in the air 2) Reviewing the night video feed

I have my slide, only one rivet in it, taped under 3/8".
Believe mine slide is the same now for an opening.

When I refilled mine yesterday (photo posted) the first layer was really hot ash. The 3 splits you see on the top, were charred really good before I had shut the fuel door. I have noticed that when each layer is nice and charred, the firebox heats up FAST.
 

Mrpelletburner

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2011
612
N.H.
Friday night was a really long night dealing with stove back flash issues. Cannot stress the level of frustration.

Friday afternoon I changed the setup of the stove pipe, installing a biometric damper (see attached image). Spoke to the folks at HY-C and they suggested to install the bio damper off the back of the stove,set the draft to .06 to .08. They also suggested to open the draft blower slide opening to 3/8" using a drill bit to measure. So once the stove was up and running with a nice steady fire, I had set the draft to .06-.07. I am not 100% sure what the issue is, however after the 2-3 hour mark, the stove starts to back flash (see previous posted videos).

5U1rezcDTqmnOqYBT9W1Ng.jpg IMG_0259.JPG

The following clip is from Friday night, with 3 splits loaded, illustrating continuous back flashes from the biometric damper a little over 2 hours after starting the stove. The temperature had already reached it's highest point of 700+ degrees.



Fast forward to tonight... Tonight I started the stove with some newspaper and small splits. Once the initial fire was up, I added 1 larger split and let that burn for ~20mins. I then loaded 2 more larger splits (trying to follow @Medic21 suggestions).

1st split
72mkwAdUTky9QpcRS6KZPw.jpg

Next 2 splits (load door still opened)
J452+UczRSOCNHzeWGl2zg.jpg

before closing the door
4q8xi2Z4Q96aRrXSkvwZ5g.jpg


It now has been 1hour after closing the door. Draft blower is still going, temperature gauge is reading ~600 and rising, draft is 0.06 and the stack temperature is 175degrees (wish this was a bit higher). Will report back tomorrow if I had any issues. Refer to my last photo for how much wood is currently in the stove.

I wonder if this model stove had enough testing in different environments before going to market.
 

brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
4,390
NE Ohio
I wonder if this model stove had enough testing in different environments before going to market.
I would say most certainly not!
They are using y'all for the R & D.
One thing I thought of a while back and forgot to mention...I wonder if it is possible something is partially plugging one of the air passages? I recall reading of someone a few years back that had a new wood stove acting badly...don't remember what the details of the problem were...but it was a really long drawn out headache for the guy...everybody chimed in to try and help...IIRC, he was about ready to rip it out when he ended up finding some packing material of some sort in an air passage...secondary air I think. It was fine after that. This is probably not the case here since multiple people are having issues...but still worth investigating IMO...
 

laynes69

Minister of Fire
Oct 2, 2006
2,444
Ashland OH
Where does the secondary air come in from? It seems like they are trying to design something based on an airtight design. There's no way the unit should be doing that, especially when it's that hot. When the draft blower shuts off, it seems like the firebox goes into starvation mode. That's where the secondary if hot enough, should have enough air to maintain a flame. I don't know how the unit is designed, but the secondary air rack is less than ideal looking. At this point I'd be pissed to say the least!
 

Mrpelletburner

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2011
612
N.H.
Believe I was reading that persons website blog page yesterday. Person had a Harman wood stove and the issue was solved by his dishwasher tech. The stove had a section of the stove (rear) that the manual did not mention to clean out. Once he had cleaned it out, the stove ran without issues.

So before firing up my stove yesterday , I traced all air inlets including the chamber above the stove. Nothing was blocked.

Last nights burn, with just the small load, did not have any problems (back flashes). The draft blower did run the whole time and heat output died out around 1:30 am.
 

brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
4,390
NE Ohio
The draft blower did run the whole time
That is the key...If the draft blower never shut off, there would be no issue. Once it shuts off, the large fire it has created starves for air...chokes itself out...then after a bit of time it gets enough air to re-ignite and WOOOF!
But...I wonder why the secondary air can't sustain the fire on it own? Is that adjustable?