First year with wood insert, not really helping . . . please help!

JMBoriss Posted By JMBoriss, Feb 10, 2019 at 10:12 PM

  1. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz
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    Nov 3, 2006
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    I suggest, anyone looking to purchase a stove, that they do much research, like most if not all of those here have done. Ask questions like the OP has here. Read reviews of real set ups, experiences, burning habits/techniques, and determine what is their preference of wood burner they want, and what the main factors are in the wood burner they want before they purchase. Not just go buy whatever is the latest trend, or what the has the claimed "highest output (peak or not), or whoever claims the highest efficiency whether 77% or 81%(again determined by burning specific test wood in a controlled lab environment) which by the way is not typical of hardwoods or any wood someone bucks, splits and dries on their own site, etc. etc. etc.

    Example:
    Your WPH claims as folows:
    $3,990.00 on sale for $3,590.00 for a whopping $400.00 "savings".
    Advertised Firebox size: 2.8 Cu.ft.
    Claimed max heat output: Max Heat Output: 80,000 BTUs /hr. (from their website, highly doubtful).
    Claimed Heat Output (EPA Test Method): 12,538 - 73,171 BTU's/hr (um okay sure if they say so).
    EPA Efficiency: 81%
    EPA Emission Rating: 1.33 gms/hr
    Heat up to 2200 square feet- easily (easily in which set up & circumstance)? Wide open floor plan? Rancher with heat at one end?

    VS.

    Drolet Escape1800
    $1,199.00 MSRP as listed on site
    Advertised Firebox size: 2.4Cu. ft.
    Claimed max heat output: 75,000 BTU/h (highly doubtful)
    Claimed Heat Output 14,800 BTU/h to 28,600 BTU/h
    Average overall efficiency (EPA cribs / Douglas fir) N.A.
    Average overall efficiency (dry cordwood) 69 % at low output 74 % at high output. (Again, who cares).
    Optimum efficiency 77 % more numbers thrown on a spec sheet.
    Average particulate emissions rate1.54 g/h
    Recommended heating area (sq.ft.) 500 - 2,100

    VS.

    Osburn 2400
    $2,699.00, have to call for sale price
    Advertised Firebox size: 3.4 Cu. Ft.
    Claimed max heat output: Max Heat Output: 100,000 BTUs (from their website, again highly doubtful, but they are not stating per hour like Woodstock is).
    Claimed Heat Output: 13,300 BTU/h - 44,100 BTU/h
    Optimum efficiency for the OB02401 equals 78 %( they added 1% over the typical EPA rating for this class of 77%, who cares.
    Average particulate emissions rate 3.9 g/h
    Recommended heating area of 1,000 - 2,700 square feet.

    And to confuse consumers even more, they throw the standard notes in there:
    1) This appliance is officially tested and certified by an independent agency.

    (2) Values are as measured per test method, except for the recommended heating area, firebox volume, maximum burn time and maximum heat output.

    () Recommended heating area and maximum burn time may vary subject to location in home, chimney draft,heat loss factors, climate, fuel type and other variables. The recommended heated area for a given appliance is defined by the manufacturer as its capacity to maintain a minimum acceptable temperature in the designated area in case of a power failure.

    (3) The maximum heat output (dry cordwood) is based on a loading density varying between 15 lb/ft³ and 20 lb/ft³. Other performances are based on a fuel load prescribed by the standard. The specified loading density varies between 7 lb/ft³ and 12 lb/ft³. The moisture content is between 19% and 25%.

    (4) As measured per CSA B415.1-10 stack loss method.

    (5) Higher Heating Value of the fuel.

    (6) Lower Heating Value of the fuel.

    (7) Performances based on a fuel load prescribed by the standard at 7 lb/ft³ and with a moisture content between 19% and 25%.

    (8) Optimum overall efficiency at a specific burn rate (LHV).

    (9) Carbon monoxyde.

    Insert come with blowers, does the WPH?
    Inserts are made to fit the space, your Progress leaves a whole 1" to spare height wise, of course you truly won't know till you're trying to slide that 700lb rock back into place.

    What do you do when a stone cracks, time to replace gaskets, or worse? Pull that 700lbs out... yay fun.
    Oh, how will he load it from one side or the other since it is a side loading stove? Guess he is back to arguing with the wife to plop that thing in front of the fireplace, and run piping up the face of fireplace to the new hole he has to put through the the new thimble he has to install.
    But hey, after that entire fiasco, he can now use the free 3 burner cook top, that is a plus. Insert eye roll here---->

    So, you were saying "In what world is less heat and less efficiency better? He lives in a cold house, more heat is better"
    So in all those numbers you so highly regard, where is the added noteworthy extra heat output from the freestander?

    Again, you're now informed. Any other questions, I refer you to google, which In should have done in the first place. I did this for the original poster, so he can see I am not just throwing my opinion at him, to talk him into something he nor his wife wants. And saving him a huge extra cost and headache.

    JMBorris, get the largest firebox size insert you can fit in that hole, and that is the best you can do, which will be much warmth. Aside from plopping something in front of the fireplace and adding in the extra cost and effort than you will already have to put out.
    As I said, read all advise, take some into consideration, and take much with a grain of salt. This is for you and your wife to be happy, not someone else telling you what you should or should not get & do.

    Lastly, NEVER, EVER base your decision on advertised max/ normal heat outputs & advertised square footage advertised. Go by fire box size(and check actual usable), and what suites your wants & needs. The numbers posted on manufacturer sites are misleading, as are the EPA output lab result numbers. You would get better insight from actual owners here and a few other sites.
     
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  2. Tar12

    Tar12
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    I was in no way trying to mislead the OP or telling him to he HAD to go with a Freestanding stove...it was merely a suggestion based upon my experiences with a insert I had along with 2 friends who had inserts with small fireboxes trying to heat roughly what the OP is trying to do...it didnt work for me or the one friend...we both went with freestanders and are quite satisfied with the results.Where is the BS there? If he can get it done with a insert more power to him!
     
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  3. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz
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    That is correct, due to the fact he didn't want to shell out $3,000+ for an insert, which he is finding he doesn't have to do. Lastly, the one person that has final say is the wife(thank god I'm not married). He wants a happy life, so he best keep a happy wife. Nuff said. Poor bastard.
     
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  4. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz
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    Not knowing insert you had, it could ahve been too small to handle the load, as his is. Or was it a US stove, or other subpar insert? Too many factors, too many different set ups, and too many situations, all one different from another. Glad it worked out for you. If you are happy, that is what counts. I mistakenly lumped you into the discussion, and for that I will apologize. Of course I still stand by my advise to the OP. Not one fix, fixes all problems, so of course there is always alternatives. He gave guidelines and reason, I followed along that. If I had a jumbo fireplace, I might have considered a large freestander if it would fit. Was not happening, so I went with the largest insert I could get, that fit, which it barely did. I am however impressed with heating the space I am with what I have. Home layout is everything. A great convection loop is all the difference, insert or stove.
     
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  5. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz
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    JMBorris, can you install the block off plate from the top of the lintel, straight back? That may be your best bet, and you won't have to contort your arms too far up into the old box. Doesn't really matter where you install the plate, as long as you can get it in there, and seal it. Lower is better when installing after the fact.

    And making it out of 2 or even 3 pcs will make it easier to install.
     
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  6. ColdNorCal

    ColdNorCal
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    When I cutout the damper with a sawzall it loosened up the bricks in the same area that your bricks were removed. I simply mortared them back into place. You could either make a plate to cover the hole or buy a couple of firebricks and mortar them in. Their is also the chance the bricks are lying on the smoke shelf. Just reach back their and feel around for them. It looks like pieces of bricks in the pics you posted. Then install a plate as hogz suggested.
     
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  7. JMBoriss

    JMBoriss
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    Great, thank you all, I really appreciate it. I've read a little bit about block off plates and what thickness steel did you use and where did you get it? Also, would you put roxul anything under the insert or just top (above block off plate - I'll probably add 2 or 3+ layers) back and sides? Did you just friction fit the roxul to the back and sides or affix them some how? Thank you.
     
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  8. georgepds

    georgepds
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    So the insert has roughly ~44k btu/hr output, and the stove ~74k btu / hr

    And somehow you conclude the insert is going to be warmer...

    Wow

    Really, you can't argue with that, really ;)
     
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  9. ColdNorCal

    ColdNorCal
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    If it were me, Id stuff roxul/mineral wool into the chimney as far up as you can using a stick, piece of pipe, broom... on back and sides, fill up the smoke shelf and insulate above plate. One bag of insulation can do a lot.

    Some have just placed insulation behind and on top of insert. The insert shroud should keep fibers from entering the house if installed well.

    Lots of examples/threads on this site of insulating fireplace for inserts....
     
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  10. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz
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    Advertised controlled tested numbers. You just don't get it. That's all you can come up with?
    Yes, still ill informed, and refusing to open your mind. So be it. Have fun with that.

    How did 73,171 turn into 74? Your trying your best, I'll give you that.
    So you believe the claim of 80,000 btu hr peak, and you're going to get 74,000 btu/hr for the length of the burn.

    Again back to your ill informed ",measures".
    I'll say it slow & simple. Claimed/advertised peak & low to high burns times are all "claimed" lab testing numbers. Means.....nothing.

    A 2.8 firebox vs a 3.4 firebox. Simple. more wood fuel, more heat. There is your answer. A load of wood puts out so many btus.
    Unless its' the magical Blaze King, which yours is not, you ain't going to out heat a box over 1/2 a cu ft larger.
    If you want to go by the claimed numbers, why are you ignoring the 100,000 btus vs your piddly 85,000? I'll tell you why, because those numbers along with the peak , low & high "advertised" burn btus is a load of shitsky.

    Put your stove in the hole, vs the insert, and the same thing will happen. The rest of the info is up to you to go look and inform yourself about.
    School is out.
     
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  11. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz
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    Go to the HVAC dept of HD or lowes, and get yourself a flat sheet of galv duct metal. Bend minimal 1" flanges around the entire perimeter of the block off plate, at slightly less than a 90 degree angle. Friction will help hold it in place, and you can tapcon some screws into the masonry, and silicone around the perimeter to seal.

    Roxul around the insert, when the insert has no outer shell or casing, is only going to keep the heat from existing the insert into the house IMO. Kind of defeating the purpose. If it had an outer casing, I would be more inclined to agree with insulating around the sides and back.

    Don't overthink. I would do the block off plate first, and see if that helps. Some have found a drastic improvement just by installing a block off plate. Not saying it will solve all your problems, but you never know till you put it in there. And you will want it with whatever burner is sitting in there.
    Put the block off plate in. Batt insulation does not stop air flow. Roxul on top of the plate is good though. You can stuff more up in the area of the liner that isn't insulated, but don't rely on Roxul as an air barrier.
     
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  12. HomeinPA

    HomeinPA
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    Well, at least the inside of your chimney is staying warm :rolleyes:, that's where all your heat is going. They could have at least stuffed some insulation up there.
     
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  13. georgepds

    georgepds
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    So do you know that the symbol ~ means approximately? Am I mistaken, but are you not arguing you can't believe the numbers in the first place, yet you call out the difference between ~73 and~74.

    So, I should have said, the insert has roughly ~44k btu/hr output, and the stove ~73k btu / hr.. Thank you for the detailed correction.

    This is starting to resemble that section in 1984 where Winston learns 2+2 = 5, or whatever the state wants..

    You got me, I concede, at least in Bizzaro Wild worlds, 44 is > > 73.

    Really, it's truly hard to argue with logic like that
     
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  14. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz
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    Answer this....have you ever owned an insert?
    And stay hung up on those numbers. Yeah they are real world and across the line in every install, with any wood, and any set up. Yeah, no. And I still have some prime land to sell you, the numbers and claims on it are simply wonderful.

    3.4 > 2.8 every time.

    PS. the difference between ~73 and~74 gave me a chuckle. Your reach is obvious, yet a fail never the less. You do know that numbers are rounded down till 5 and up at 5 right?
    Thanks for the laughs... while I did enjoy the useless banter, note that focus was still given to the OP and information he requested advise on. While you offered absolutely nothing, zero, zip, zilch, nada.
    I get it, you're easily distracted, happens to ill informed folks desperately trying to get their opinion across, while supplying no real world info.
     
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  15. maple1

    maple1
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    Firebox size isn't a measure of btu/hr output. It's just the size of the fuel tank - or total btu capacity. Not all stoves can burn that load at the same rate or put all that heat output into the house.

    I would also consider tested btu/hr ratings decent comparative data. At least they're not talking square feet of heating ability - those are truly hokey numbers. Combine a bigger firebox capacity with lower heat output numbers and you should get longer burn times - which may be the biggest factor for some. Combine a smaller firebox capacity with bigger output numbers and you should get bigger heating capability - at the cost of reloading more often.
     
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  16. ED 3000

    ED 3000
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    Nothing new here, but I'll pile on a bit and encourage you to plug up that space going up into the chimney with Roxul, insulate behind the stove, and sides, perhaps, then install the block off plate.

    My setup is almost identical to yours. You should notice a pretty significant improvement with the existing stove. Even better with one of the bigger ones. I currently have a twin of the larger Drolet/century ones you are looking at, and would go with the even larger osburn if it would have fit. Make sure that whatever you choose will fit. Mine barely did. Back corners are hitting brick in the back.

    Much of your heat is just going up the chimney until you get it blocked off. Some heat will be siphoned off through the back and (less so) sides of the external chimney, a big heat sink that isn't going into the house.

    Don't worry about sitting it on Roxul. Just leave it sitting on the brick hearth.
     
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  17. Jags

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    There is plenty of good info going on for the OP that this thread deserves to live. Hard numbers such as firebox size typically will mean more than potentially fuzzy numbers (heat capability) put out by peeps trying to sell stoves. Its the same game that create massive tonnage log splitters that simple don’t calculate out.

    Good info - but My spidey senses are tingling.
     
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  18. EatenByLimestone

    EatenByLimestone
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    I was able to heat a 1600 ft house with the small CFM made Century in my signature. A small stove can make a major dent in a fuel bill, even if it doesn't carry the entire structure.
     
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  19. JMBoriss

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    What size tapcon screws should I use? How long do you recommend? I assume not too long maybe 1.5” or so? I’m going to buy roxul for the back and sides and block off plate but what make/model of insulation should I use to stuff up the chimney as far as I can?
     
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  20. bholler

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    Roxul there as well. We usually use 1.25" tapcons
     
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  21. JMBoriss

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    I'm on the Roxul website and what specific kind should I buy for the back and walls and top? How about to stuff up the chimney? I'd like to do this this evening when I get home from work. Stop by Lowes and pick up the supplies. Rockwood safe and sound? Comfortbatt? I assume the higher the R value the better.
     
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  22. bholler

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    I have always used safe and sound
     
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  23. spudman99

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    Safe and sound is fine. The other kind is for thermal insulation but they both have the same R value. Should be priced about the same also.
     
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  24. mellow

    mellow
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    Plenty of threads on insulating the fireplace and how to's on a block off plate. Once you do that you will see a difference.
     
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  25. JMBoriss

    JMBoriss
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    I just reviewed almost all of those threads. Very informative. So I went to Lowe’s this evening and bought 2 bundles of roxul comfortbat R15 and try to friction fit it above the insert. That was a bad idea so Saturday I’ll be moving out the insert, doing the block off plate with sheet metal and stuffing roxul up the chimney. It seems a lot of people don’t insulate the back and sides. I plan to as I have a exterior brick chimney. Other than durarock what can I use to hold the roxul to the back and sides?
     
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