Got the Vaccine

tlc1976

Minister of Fire
Oct 7, 2012
717
Northwest Lower Michigan
I heard something in the early stages of Covid that hydroxychloroquine did work well. The only problem was it was in short supply and if they used it up for Covid then lupus patients would be out of luck.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ludlow

MMH

Feeling the Heat
Jan 21, 2019
340
NV
That is a false narrative. Fauci says even if you get the vaccine you still have to wear a mask and distance and that will not change. I talked to a friend on Friday. His family was hit with covid and 11 people got it. Only one (middle aged woman) got moderately sick. Others, including an 80 year old man, ranged from no symptoms to a runny nose for a few days. All of them, including the 80 year old, recovered. I know of three households where 1 person got it and nobody else in the house contracted it. I dont inject anything into my body for the good of humanity. I make my own choices. Without a clear defined benefit I will pass. The J&J vaccine interests me but requires further scrutiny. Nobody in any of their trials died. Seems that you may still catch the covid with their vaccine but it lessens the severity enormously. I believe their vaccine is more of a traditional type of vaccine but I need to study more before committing to that.



Pennacchio: Could Lives Have Been Saved if Doctors Had the Chance to Fight COVID with Hydroxychloroquine?
HCQ was Showing Promise Early in the Pandemic, New Hackensack Meridian Health Study Shows

A prescription drug with a six-decade history as a safe and effective anti-parasitic treatment is once again showing promise as an early treatment for COVID-19.
A just-released study by a New Jersey-based healthcare system indicates that patients with mild symptoms of the virus who received hydroxychloroquine were “significantly less likely to end up in the hospital,” according to a published report in the Daily Record, dated Jan. 27, 2021.
“This doesn’t come as a surprise to me, but it is troubling that we had to wait almost a year to get to this point,” said Senator Joe Pennacchio, who as early as March was joined by dozens of doctors and medical experts urging the federal and State governments to authorize doctors to use the drug, also known as HCQ, to help control the spread of COVID after the encouraging early findings.
“In the desperation of the early days of the pandemic, with COVID spreading like wildfire in areas of North Jersey and New York, hydroxychloroquine was the only treatment showing promise,” Pennacchio said. “HCQ got a bad rap because of politics, and its off-label use as a COVID treatment was blocked.”
The new study from Hackensack Meridian Health stated that from March to mid-May, the system’s physicians used the hydroxychloroquine to treat outpatients who did not have severe symptoms, and of more than 100 people who received the drug, barely 20 percent ended up in the hospital, compared with close to 33 percent of more than 1,000 people who were not administered HCQ.
In today’s article, the Daily Record reported that “the drug also appeared to be safe, with no reports of cardiac arrhythmia,” or other side effects.
“Politicians, insisting they knew more than the doctors who were prescribing the treatment effectively blocked its use and prevented further studies,” said Pennacchio. “They robbed the desperate public of a potential medical option when they were so desperate for any reason for hope.
“So much time was wasted, so many lives lost. So heartbreaking,” the Senator said.
In April, while the effectiveness of HCQ was playing out at Meridian’s hospitals, Pennacchio issued another plea to Administration, with a long list of 350 doctors from across the nation pleading for doctors to be allowed to use the drug to treat patients.
“How many thousands of lives, including those tragically lost in our veterans and nursing homes, may have been saved by the responsible use of hydroxychloroquine?” asked Pennacchio.
“Had politicians put aside their partisanship and truly did the business of the people, the story may have been quite different in New Jersey and across the U.S. What a shame,” Pennacchio concluded.
Again with respect, but being in healthcare and as stoveliker said misinformation is no good for anyone. Herd immunity is not a false narrative. I won’t argue fauci as some respect him and some don’t regardless of their backgrounds.
Again, hydroxy has confounding results with some reporting it a mirricle drug and others reporting no differences as it wasn’t replicated; this is why in the scientific community they’ve called for large scale RCT’s with thousands of patients in the context of covid (not malaria, not lupus, or any other myriad of things we already know it works for), because it works for one doesn’t imply the other.
As far as your statement regarding knowing people who had covid and were fine or didn’t catch it etc this is anecdotal and subpar evidence in the scientific community. I also have seen people who got it, died from it, got it and we’re asymptomatic, or didn’t get it and should have across all age groups; again all anecdotal, is extremely multifactorial, and doesn’t represent the whole. Talk to NYC or any other major metro area that was hit hard and they’ll have a different story for you as well. I respect your decision to not get the vaccine at the moment, or ever, that’s your choice as you said, but don’t plaster it based on conspiracy and potentially false and misleading information. Again I mean no disrespect to you, and I suspect this is where we’ll agree to disagree. Enjoy your night.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
5,648
Downeast Maine
I don't think either vaccine is RNA, maybe MRNA, but that is still only physically similar. You can buy a a Pontiac Fiero and install a V8 and a Ferrari body kit, but that doesn't make it a Ferrari.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Indianawood and MMH

jatoxico

Minister of Fire
Aug 8, 2011
4,334
Long Island NY
Fauci says even if you get the vaccine you still have to wear a mask and distance and that will not change.
This misconstrues the current guidance. Yes, after getting vaccinated they are still recommending people wear a mask because they have not yet proved beyond all doubt that vaccinated people can't carry/transmit the disease but its likely only a matter of time and will probably be like other vaccines.

I suspect there may be practical reasons as well since it would be difficult to police mask wearing if someone falsely claims to be vaccinated.

In addition the longer the virus is in the population the greater the chance of mutation as the virus replicates. Vaccinated people are much less likely to be sources of future mutations.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
5,648
Downeast Maine
I do agree that the Pfizer, Moderna, and AZ vaccines should not be called vaccines. Traditionally a vaccine inoculated a person with part of or the whole live virus and almost always yielded sterilizing immunity in the recipient. These new "vaccines" are really just prophylactics in that they do not give sterilizing immunity, just the ability to kick the infection if you get it. If the new drugs could give sterilizing immunity we would inoculate front line workers so the disease is not spread in normal every day activities. Since this new drug will allow you to still contract the virus and spread it, even to people who are also "vaccinated", those most at risk of dying are getting the vaccine.

Long story short, the new "vaccines" are just a way to reduce death, not prevent spread.


If these new drugs could give sterilizing immunity I would feel better about them. Most of the worst human diseases have been eradicated by effective vaccines. Small pox, polio, measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines all give sterilizing immunity, the CV19 vaccines so far do not. Even at current vaccine production rates it would take ten years to protect the entire world population, one year for the US.

Once you start adding in the variants the plague looks like it will just go on forever.
 

Ludlow

Minister of Fire
Jun 4, 2018
1,437
PA
I do agree that the Pfizer, Moderna, and AZ vaccines should not be called vaccines. Traditionally a vaccine inoculated a person with part of or the whole live virus and almost always yielded sterilizing immunity in the recipient. These new "vaccines" are really just prophylactics in that they do not give sterilizing immunity, just the ability to kick the infection if you get it. If the new drugs could give sterilizing immunity we would inoculate front line workers so the disease is not spread in normal every day activities. Since this new drug will allow you to still contract the virus and spread it, even to people who are also "vaccinated", those most at risk of dying are getting the vaccine.

Long story short, the new "vaccines" are just a way to reduce death, not prevent spread.


If these new drugs could give sterilizing immunity I would feel better about them. Most of the worst human diseases have been eradicated by effective vaccines. Small pox, polio, measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines all give sterilizing immunity, the CV19 vaccines so far do not. Even at current vaccine production rates it would take ten years to protect the entire world population, one year for the US.

Once you start adding in the variants the plague looks like it will just go on forever.
Your post strengthens my assertion that herd immunity is a false narrative and that "getting it for the good of humanity" is bogus.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
5,648
Downeast Maine
Your post strengthens my assertion that herd immunity is a false narrative.
Herd immunity is not a false narrative, but it is used in a deceptive fashion. It will take years to get to herd immunity, and that term itself takes away all the humanity of the hundreds of thousands of people in this country that have already died from it. The US is only 5% of the world population, this is going to take a long time, like a sub surface coal or peat fire.
 

Ludlow

Minister of Fire
Jun 4, 2018
1,437
PA
The vaccine was made 11 days before the first case was confirmed in the US.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
5,648
Downeast Maine
The vaccine was made 11 days before the first case was confirmed in the US.
Indeed, the virus was being transmitted in China back in November. The genetic sequence was released prior to known cases in the US. If you already had a stack of Legos sitting around it wouldn't be hard to build something if you got the instructions. I don' t doubt the efficacy of the drugs that Pfizer, Moderna, etc. have released, I just don't think they should be called vaccines. I suspect there is no way to attain sterilizing immunity to coronaviruses, elsewise it would have already been done. It seems most human respiratory disease comes from coronaviruses, it just happens that there are now a few strains that are deadly in humans rather than just inconvenient. Research into protection from SARS causing viruses, like the current novel coronavirus, has been ongoing since the last SARS and MERS outbreaks.


I am afraid Covid19 will end up becoming like Malaria and the only thing that works will be prophylactics. Unfortunately I have immune system issues and my doctor does not recommend me to get the current "vaccines" due to adverse reaction risks. Maybe in a few years I could get one of the options once more is known about the causes of adverse reactions.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
23,841
central pa
Your post strengthens my assertion that herd immunity is a false narrative and that "getting it for the good of humanity" is bogus.
Not a false narrative at all. It is absolutely a reality the problem is to get there without a vaccine would cost many many more lives.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ben94122 and MMH

Medic21

Minister of Fire
Feb 26, 2017
1,107
Northern Indiana
I do agree that the Pfizer, Moderna, and AZ vaccines should not be called vaccines. Traditionally a vaccine inoculated a person with part of or the whole live virus and almost always yielded sterilizing immunity in the recipient. These new "vaccines" are really just prophylactics in that they do not give sterilizing immunity, just the ability to kick the infection if you get it. If the new drugs could give sterilizing immunity we would inoculate front line workers so the disease is not spread in normal every day activities. Since this new drug will allow you to still contract the virus and spread it, even to people who are also "vaccinated", those most at risk of dying are getting the vaccine.

Long story short, the new "vaccines" are just a way to reduce death, not prevent spread.


If these new drugs could give sterilizing immunity I would feel better about them. Most of the worst human diseases have been eradicated by effective vaccines. Small pox, polio, measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines all give sterilizing immunity, the CV19 vaccines so far do not. Even at current vaccine production rates it would take ten years to protect the entire world population, one year for the US.

Once you start adding in the variants the plague looks like it will just go on forever.
There is a lot inherently flawed in what you posted. The Small Pox and Polio vaccines are not even used because it was eradicated.
MMR does not produce a lifelong or sterile immunity as you suggest. Without titers drawn and boosters your immunity may not exist after 5-10 years.

MMR is about the only live vaccine left that is routinely given.

Covid is not a vaccine as you think of vaccine. Your speculating to what can happen as is everyone. There has been the full gambit of not contracting to less severe cases in those that have gotten the vaccine. There is still too much to learn to make any assumptions. What we need is a T cell immunity type vaccine. That is years out.
 

Ludlow

Minister of Fire
Jun 4, 2018
1,437
PA
What are you basing that assertion upon?
Uh...facts?

Scientists at Moderna, a biotech specializing in messenger RNA, were able to design a vaccine on paper in 48 hours, 11 days before the US even had its first recorded case. Inside of six weeks, Moderna had chilled doses ready for tests in animals.
 

Ludlow

Minister of Fire
Jun 4, 2018
1,437
PA
Not a false narrative at all. It is absolutely a reality the problem is to get there without a vaccine would cost many many more lives.
But there is no long term immunity. Are we to vaccinate every year?
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
23,841
central pa
Uh...facts?

Scientists at Moderna, a biotech specializing in messenger RNA, were able to design a vaccine on paper in 48 hours, 11 days before the US even had its first recorded case. Inside of six weeks, Moderna had chilled doses ready for tests in animals.
Uhh designing it in theory on paper is one thing. But you claimed it was made. Making it is a completely different thing then it needs tested etc etc. Btw Did you bother to check how the tests of that original one went???
 
  • Like
Reactions: MMH

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
23,841
central pa
But there is no long term immunity. Are we to vaccinate every year?
There can absolutely be long term immunity as long as the virus doesn't mutate to a point that immunity is no longer effective. We don't know if that will happen or not yet with covid. If it does mutate like influenza the yes we may need to get vaccinated every year.

This is a new virus we simply don't know the answers to many of these questions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ben94122 and MMH

Ludlow

Minister of Fire
Jun 4, 2018
1,437
PA
Uhh designing it in theory on paper is one thing. But you claimed it was made. Making it is a completely different thing then it needs tested etc etc. Btw Did you bother to check how the tests of that original one went???
Ok Ok....semantics it is.
Show us.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
23,841
central pa
Ok Ok....semantics it is.
Show us.
Not semantics. You said it was made before we had our first case here. It was not it was designed on paper and from that they produced a vaccine that didn't make it through testing. I would say that makes your claim inaccurate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MMH

Ludlow

Minister of Fire
Jun 4, 2018
1,437
PA
This is a new virus we simply don't know the answers to many of these questions.
That is what you should go with. Everything else is just parroting what the "experts" are saying one day, then reversing the next.
Not semantics. You said it was made before we had our first case here. It was not it was designed on paper and from that they produced a vaccine that didn't make it through testing. I would say that makes your claim inaccurate.
Where do you get that information that it didnt make it?
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
23,841
central pa
That is what you should go with. Everything else is just parroting what the "experts" are saying one day, then reversing the next.


Where do you get that information that it didnt make it?
Cdc records
 
  • Like
Reactions: MMH

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
23,841
central pa
That is what you should go with. Everything else is just parroting what the "experts" are saying one day, then reversing the next.


Where do you get that information that it didnt make it?
And we do not know all the answers no one does at this point. But we know many things that help control the spread. We know the vaccines currently available at the very least reduce the severity of symptoms in patients.
 
  • Like
Reactions: stoveliker and MMH

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
696
Eastern Long Island NY
And we do not know all the answers no one does at this point. But we know many things that help control the spread. We know the vaccines currently available at the very least reduce the severity of symptoms in patients.
Indeed, we don't know everything, but incredibly useful (and even safety increasing) advice can and is being given by experts.
And that is not only the case for chimney issues on this forum...

And indeed, you have the freedom to not follow that advice from those that actually spent decades of their life trying to understand the complex systems that is the human body and society. Not following that advice may have consequences though, for your safety and for e.g. your neighbor's safety. That holds both for chimneys and vaccines.

Moreover, it seems likely to me that some privileges might be taken away from those refusing the vaccine. School, sports games, cinemas etc etc.
I note that schools already require (!) vaccines - just not for covid yet.

In this free country you have the opportunity to refuse. But that may not be without consequences.

Edit: I replied to the wrong post.
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
696
Eastern Long Island NY
How do you know there is no long term immunity? Site the peer reviewed study that proves this. All I’ve seen is speculation.
Moreover, flue shot...?
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
5,648
Downeast Maine
I think everyone should get the available vaccines even if they aren't perfect. Clearly I'm no expert on this virus or how deadly it is, but I know I don't want it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: stoveliker