Had to purchase a cord. Did I get shorted?

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Franknj229

New Member
Jan 17, 2012
3
NE Pennsylvania
Just bought my first house. Big yard. Lots of trees. But nothing I can burn immediately and winter finally arrived in Northeast PA. Just had a cord delivered and stacked it as soon as they left. I think I only received 2/3rds of a cord, but I wanted to get some expert advice before I call them and potentially put my foot in my mouth.

Here's the details:

I built 2 wood racks. Very basic 2x4 construction. 8'x4'x1'

The pile of wood they delivered filled both racks....barely. Factoring in the width of the 2x4's, the actual height and length of each pile is 7'4"x3'9".

If each peice of wood was 2 feet long, that would be close enough to a full cord, but who burns 2 foot long fire wood? Anyway, the pieces varied by alot! The longest pieces were 20" long (less than 5% of the wood delivered) and the shortest pieces were between 6" and 9" (about 10-15% of the wood delivered). The average length was about 16".

If I did the math correctly, I ended up with approximately 75 cubic feet of firewood. Their website clearly states the dimensions of a cord of wood, so there is no debating whether they "meant" a half cord or face cord or anything like that.

Do I have a valid gripe here? Any suggestions on how to proceed?

Thank you,

Frank
 
Yes, you were shorted. Man up, call them and ask them to deliver the rest. If they argue, you could stop payment on the check, credit card, etc. However, I suspect that you paid cash (as I would too) and that was the preferred payment method by the dealer. If they won't deliver the rest, you're out part of what you paid. Not that big a deal- but you learned to either confirm the measurements ahead of time, measure when they deliver, or leave yourself some wiggle room if you get shorted again. You also learned not to deal with this guy again.

Like I said, not that big a deal (how much are you out- $50?), but a good lesson in how to get the rules straight with future dealers.

This is why many of us don't purchase wood (also because we're frugal!) Since I started scrounging for myself, I haven't shorted me once!
 
Sounds like you got shorted to me. Should be 8' long 4' high and 4' deep. I'd call them.

If they won't own up, see if you have a weights and measures office and report them. Had to do this once years go for my father in law, turned out the guy was shorting a LOT of people and ended up in court over it-we got him $$ back.
 
Yep u got shorted. You basically got 2 face cords. Some folks think 2 face cords is a cord because of thier rounding. I would call and tell them your concern. Tell them the avg piece is 16" and your stack is only 8ft x 4ft by 36" Your really close 3 arm fulls will get you there i bet, granted big arm loads that only a huge guy could hold but still.
 
A cord is 4'x4'x8'
It takes three face cords(4'x8'x16") to equal a cord.
He took you.
 
3 of your racks full of 16" long wood would have been a full cord. Definitely shorted.
 
Here in NEPA, you received what is commonly called 2 face cords. Unfortunately, you are about 1/3 of a cord short since around here, most consider 3 face to be a cord.

In dealing with them, did you meet the people who delivered? If not, then I'd play the nice card and call and ask if the person they sent out was a new person and they didn't know how to load the truck and made an accidental mistake, if there was confusion on what you had ordered, etc, etc. If you met the owner, then just call up and perhaps play the confused card about what you read on their own site to be a cord versus what you received and ask how the error can be rectified.

The quicker you call and ask the easier it will be. If you wait in this weather, then you've lost. If it's cold, I can burn a face cord (1/3 of a cord) in a week. The last few days would be their argument. Again, start off nice and sounding concerned that an honest mistake was made. If that gets you nowhere, then steadily increase your use of the unhappy customer card..

pen
 
Shorted . . . I must admit though I am also a bit curious as to the varying size wood . . . typically the wood I've seen that folks have purchased from a wood processor tend to be a lot more uniform in size . . . having wood ranging from 20 inches to 6 or 9 inches is a bit strange. I mean to say, I occasionally get some long ones and some chunks, but you don't hear of too many dealers who are bringing odd ball sizes to their customers like this.
 
Yes you got shorted, but the good news is you built your racks the perfect dimension to measure the amount of wood you got. As others have pointed out it would take three of your racks at 16 inches average length to make a full cord.
 
Funny, I am in the exact same situation this morning. Wood delivered this weekend, finished stacking yesterday. Measured to just under 90 cu. ft. Called him already this morning, now here is the quote of the day. He says to me, "And what's it supposed to be, 108?" I, of course, said no, 128!! He said he will deliver the 40 short today, we will see. Luckily I did pay credit card.
 
firefighterjake said:
Shorted . . . I must admit though I am also a bit curious as to the varying size wood . . . typically the wood I've seen that folks have purchased from a wood processor tend to be a lot more uniform in size . . . having wood ranging from 20 inches to 6 or 9 inches is a bit strange. I mean to say, I occasionally get some long ones and some chunks, but you don't hear of too many dealers who are bringing odd ball sizes to their customers like this.

Jake, you don't think that the wild mix of lengths could be to facilitate the seller's scam do you? A ploy to confuse the buyer, seems to me, or at least evidence of simple incompetence. Gotta wonder if there was any arrangement between buyer & seller regarding length.

As to comments about "no problem getting hosed for $50", that's why we have Weights & Measures people. You can get rich shorting buyers, and this was a big-time shorting. Way too common.
 
CTYank said:
firefighterjake said:
Shorted . . . I must admit though I am also a bit curious as to the varying size wood . . . typically the wood I've seen that folks have purchased from a wood processor tend to be a lot more uniform in size . . . having wood ranging from 20 inches to 6 or 9 inches is a bit strange. I mean to say, I occasionally get some long ones and some chunks, but you don't hear of too many dealers who are bringing odd ball sizes to their customers like this.

Jake, you don't think that the wild mix of lengths could be to facilitate the seller's scam do you? A ploy to confuse the buyer, seems to me, or at least evidence of simple incompetence. Gotta wonder if there was any arrangement between buyer & seller regarding length.

As to comments about "no problem getting hosed for $50", that's why we have Weights & Measures people. You can get rich shorting buyers, and this was a big-time shorting. Way too common.

If i were gonna bet about the lengths i would guess the reason that there are such short pieces is that they are from huge trees that had to be cut short to move them better. Tree services do this to move them. If he is getting wood dropped off from a tree service whole or in short rounds or even if he is cutting them he may do this to better move them. Just my guess.

Not saying its right you would think that you would want more uniform pieces for your customers and you burn those yourself or you sell them at a discount.

It could actually be even shorter than that taken a 7" piece in a stack will take up the same verticle space as a 16" piece, and if not stacking short pieces side by side you will have a taller verticle height than you would with all 16" pieces.



And as to the other guy who was shorted your "dealer" is somewhat correct, and then so are you. In forestry we are taught that a cord of wood is 4x4x8=128 right. But that is including the air as well, hes not delivering a solid cube of wood there will be air in there. I cant remember the exact figures used as there obscure and based on wood size and region i beleive everyone uses different #'s but the amount of Actual wood in a cord is closer to the 108 he gave. I think it is taught to be 108 or 96cuft or somewhere in there. But dont get me wrong you are right, wood sold is based on what will stack as tightly as possible in a 4x4x8 space or what ever other numbers make up 128cuft. Thats how wood is purchased and sold. But technically weather rounds or split you will never actually get 128cuft of wood so we use a figure as just one of those play #'s somewhere around 108cuft. The reason this is brought up is that at least in the state of SC wood is bought and sold on the weight basis not cord or cuft, or bdft or anything else anymore. This conversion # is to allow to convert between cords and tons to get actual timber or # of trees that are out there.

IE you cant take 30 tons and divide by 2.675 (tons per cord for southern pine) and find actual on the ground cords as you will over estimate when going to the cubic ft or the other way? My point is that if u use 128 cuft to a cord in your conversions you will overestimate product in the woods as that 128cuft SPACE only contianed some number short of 128 more like 108.

WOW that went way longer than i wanted or needed to be. But i think you got a synopsis of lesson 3 of forestry 101 there!
 
All this talk about cord dimensions and lengths of the wood, nobody mentioned whether the wood is dry enough to burn or not, that's usually the next problem to arise.
It would be a double let down for the OP if the wood dealer made good on the volume only to find out all the wood was cut and split only a week ago and not worth burning this year.

Oh the trials and tribulations of new wood burners. :shut:
 
pen said:
Here in NEPA, you received what is commonly called 2 face cords. Unfortunately, you are about 1/3 of a cord short since around here, most consider 3 face to be a cord.

In dealing with them, did you meet the people who delivered? If not, then I'd play the nice card and call and ask if the person they sent out was a new person and they didn't know how to load the truck and made an accidental mistake, if there was confusion on what you had ordered, etc, etc. If you met the owner, then just call up and perhaps play the confused card about what you read on their own site to be a cord versus what you received and ask how the error can be rectified.

The quicker you call and ask the easier it will be. If you wait in this weather, then you've lost. If it's cold, I can burn a face cord (1/3 of a cord) in a week. The last few days would be their argument. Again, start off nice and sounding concerned that an honest mistake was made. If that gets you nowhere, then steadily increase your use of the unhappy customer card..

pen

I'm with Pen here. Give the guy the benefit of the doubt. If it becomes clear that he intentionally tried to bone you, then find a different dealer next year.

I bought wood for the first time this year, and got lucky. The guy lives about a mile up the road. He delivered five cords over the course of four months, and it wasn't until it was all stacked [by me] that he expected to be paid.

There's just no way to know how much wood you've gotten until it's stacked. Down the road you should look for that kind of arrangement, or short of that, pay the guy for half of what he says he delivered up front, and then settle up once you've got it all stacked.

The wood I got also had some oddball sizes. I'd say 95 percent of it was 17-18 inches, but there were also pieces that were 12 or 14 inches. I don't think that's necessarily out of the ordinary [but should be accounted for if there's a lot of short pieces].
 
hi, im new here, but had exactly waht you are describing happen to me last year in MD.

my woodshed is made of 8x8x8 cells comprised of fence sections. when they delivered, i got out my moisture meter. they asked, "what is that?" i laughed, they were amazed. moisture was ok. they had told me on the phone that pieces are cut at 16". what a crock. some were 8 some were 24. i stacked it, and they were every bit of a 1/4 cord short. so yep, i called them....

his first response was NO WAY! that was a full cord! i told him to come out and measure it up. eventually, he relented and said he would bring me my due. his did, although it was 2 weeks later.

2 ways firewood people will try to screw you.

1. varying the size of the pieces

2. splitting and adding in more small pieces. finely split wood takes up more room than that that is coarsely split. with some exceptions.
 
I'm new to the wood selling business, but since we started cutting and splitting a couple years ago I have always been concerned that I might be accused of not offering the full stated amount.
We sell face cords; 4' x 8' x 16"
In order to be darn sure anyone that buys from me gets what they paid for (I value my reputation, and keep my word) we stack the wood on racks that are 8' long and just over 4' high so the customer can see, and measure if they like before buying.
(We also state in our ad that the customer is welcome to bring a moisture meter and check a few fresh splits)

On that same note, perhaps since you have the correct sized racks, if you buy from a seller who promises a face cord (cut to an average of 16") if you pay a little extra to have him stack it, there will never be a "mistake".

Rob

fac26344ad5395e844639501b8c4db0f13d263a3.JPG
 
Maine State regulations state if stacked, no holes larger than the smallest piece of wood. There are also standards for loose loaded, so many cubic feet based on the length of wood, as most sellers load off a processor or conveyor. Sellers are required to provide a sales slip that states the type of wood (mixed hardwood, or whatever) and how the sales volume was measured, stack or cubic foot. If your dealer does not provide a slip (under the table sale) you may have little recourse with Weights and Measures. Of course, Taxation may be interested.......
 
firefighterjake said:
Shorted . . . I must admit though I am also a bit curious as to the varying size wood . . . typically the wood I've seen that folks have purchased from a wood processor tend to be a lot more uniform in size . . . having wood ranging from 20 inches to 6 or 9 inches is a bit strange. I mean to say, I occasionally get some long ones and some chunks, but you don't hear of too many dealers who are bringing odd ball sizes to their customers like this.

Goes to the problem... sounds like this isn't a "processor", but just some guy who cut up some wood.
 
Maybe he buys a semi load of logs and processes them, the shorts are the small pieces that are always left when processing full length logs.
 
Sounds like you got yourself a "Long Island cord." On Long Island, there is a different definition for an "All hardwood, seasoned cord." It's a cord that's short at least 25%, with 20% pine and cut down last week. I personally wouldn't pay cash anymore, only check, and tell them it will be cancelled if the cord is found to be short after stacking and the shortage not delivered within 2 days. If they deliver the shortage after the check is cancelled, they will be paid the original amount minus the check cancelling fee. If they won't accept these terms, tell them to leave and take their wood with them.
 
48rob said:
I'm new to the wood selling business, but since we started cutting and splitting a couple years ago I have always been concerned that I might be accused of not offering the full stated amount.
We sell face cords; 4' x 8' x 16"
In order to be darn sure anyone that buys from me gets what they paid for (I value my reputation, and keep my word) we stack the wood on racks that are 8' long and just over 4' high so the customer can see, and measure if they like before buying.
(We also state in our ad that the customer is welcome to bring a moisture meter and check a few fresh splits)

On that same note, perhaps since you have the correct sized racks, if you buy from a seller who promises a face cord (cut to an average of 16") if you pay a little extra to have him stack it, there will never be a "mistake".

Rob

fac26344ad5395e844639501b8c4db0f13d263a3.JPG
That mite fly in Illinois but in Ohio the only legal amount is a cord.4x4x8.
 
JeffT said:
48rob said:
I'm new to the wood selling business, but since we started cutting and splitting a couple years ago I have always been concerned that I might be accused of not offering the full stated amount.
We sell face cords; 4' x 8' x 16"
In order to be darn sure anyone that buys from me gets what they paid for (I value my reputation, and keep my word) we stack the wood on racks that are 8' long and just over 4' high so the customer can see, and measure if they like before buying.
(We also state in our ad that the customer is welcome to bring a moisture meter and check a few fresh splits)

On that same note, perhaps since you have the correct sized racks, if you buy from a seller who promises a face cord (cut to an average of 16") if you pay a little extra to have him stack it, there will never be a "mistake".

Rob

fac26344ad5395e844639501b8c4db0f13d263a3.JPG
That mite fly in Illinois but in Ohio the only legal amount is a cord.4x4x8.


What..you can't legally sell a face cord?
You can in New York.
 
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