Heatmaster G series question

[Sukhoi29SU]

considering a G400 indoors in lower level workshop. I have 8 feet planned from floor to bottom of spancrete above (reference attached).
G400 shows 89”
I’m trying to figure out if I have room for a g400 down there.
I believe there is a minimum space between top of unit and the ceiling above it?

Thanks

 

[E Yoder]

You'd want space the length of the heat exchange tubes (48"+) in case you ever need to pull the turbulators.
That sounds pretty tight.

 

[brenndatomu]

You'd want space the length of the heat exchange tubes (48"+) in case you ever need to pull the turbulators.
That sounds pretty tight.

Not sure what the turbs look like...they might flex enough to be able to get them out with a low ceiling height?

 

[maple1]

You would definitely want to be able to get the turbs out. I imagine there are differences turb to turb - mine flex some but nowhere near enough to get them out with that little space. I also know some were replacing their turbs with chains, on some other brand boilers. No idea if that would be adequate on a Heatmaster though.

I think I would suggest seeing one in person & what is involved with getting the turbs out, first hand.

 

[Sukhoi29SU]

(broken link removed to http://www.heatmasterss.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/1327-G-Series-Owners-Manual-web.pdf)

I found this owners manual online from 2016. Within it I found this chart that says you need a minimum of 6” from furnace roof to ceiling.

Now I have another problem, though. 15’ is the max chimney height. I need to clear my roof by at least 3’ and clear any area of the roof within 10’ of where the chimney exits by 2’. I5’ isn’t going to work the way my addition is currently designed.

Why would this 15’ restriction be in place? For draft issues?

 

[maple1]

Not sure on the 15' maximum. Yes chimney specs are usually draft related, but exceeding a max height I would think would lead to too much draft, which you should be able to regulate with a barometric damper. I would call Heatmaster on that.

And the 6" top clearance just looks like a simple combustion surface requirement - it might not have anything to do with the practicality of pulling turbs. So I would still go see one in person on that.

 

[Sukhoi29SU]

Not sure on the 15' maximum. Yes chimney specs are usually draft related, but exceeding a max height I would think would lead to too much draft, which you should be able to regulate with a barometric damper. I would call Heatmaster on that.

And the 6" top clearance just looks like a simple combustion surface requirement - it might not have anything to do with the practicality of pulling turbs. So I would still go see one in person on that.

Thanks for all of the responses. I’ll give them a call on Monday and inquire about these things.

Happy Thanksgiving

 

[brenndatomu]

Yes, the height limit is to control draft. Ask them if you could install a barometric damper. That's how many indoor wood furnace manufacturers control draft...indoor wood furnaces are often attached to 25-35' tall chimneys...gotta control that!

 

[E Yoder]

I just do outdoor installs but I would think the 15' max is to control the draft as was mentioned.
The turbs are twisted stainless and are pretty stiff. On a G400 I'd like at least 6' to have room to work if needed.
Any chance of putting it outside? Maybe with a woodshed beside it?

 

[maple1]

Those sound like my turbs - which do flex, but not very much at all. Definitely wouldn't be able to pull them out without almost as much room to work with as they are long.

I think it was Eko guys, and maybe Biomass too (and maybe even Econoburn?) who were replacing them with chains. Which might be possible here? But you'd still want room to work, because it really should be done regularly. When burning daily, I pull & brush mine once a week. I can notice the reduced heat transfer from fly ash by then. Mine are mostly horizontal though - verticals with a 'cleaning mechanism' might go longer between cleanings. But even with 'cleaning mechanisms', you still want to do it on some sort of regular basis. Would be more often if wood not really dry & some smoldering time.

 

[Sukhoi29SU]

I just do outdoor installs but I would think the 15' max is to control the draft as was mentioned.
The turbs are twisted stainless and are pretty stiff. On a G400 I'd like at least 6' to have room to work if needed.
Any chance of putting it outside? Maybe with a woodshed beside it?

With as much space as I’m going to have available in a lower level workshop, I don’t think I can justify setting this thing outside in the elements. Installing it indoors and right at the bottom of the stairs and next to a crawl space that leads to interior of the house will have many benefits.

One of the main ones is that I think my wife will be more apt to keep this thing fed while I’m gone at work if I have it indoors with a nice supply of wood available to her nearby.

I wonder if I could shorten the legs on this thing, or wonder if it could be installed without the legs? Doubtful since the gasification chamber is at the bottom, but worth the question to Heatmaster probably.

 

[maple1]

No way to get a trap door in the floor/ceiling over that spot is there? Might be relatively easy with conventional wood framing, but I am clueless on what the concrete would mean for that.

 

[Sukhoi29SU]

No way to get a trap door in the floor/ceiling over that spot is there? Might be relatively easy with conventional wood framing, but I am clueless on what the concrete would mean for that.

Good thought, I plan to ask the spancrete installers about the possibility of a opening in the floor in another section of the main garage above, anyway. This way I could straddle the hole with vehicles and have easy access to under the vehicle from workshop below. When not in use, I put metal grates across it that sit down in hole on lip / ledge and the top of the grate ends up flush with the concrete floor.

This same concept could apply over top of boiler , but I’m concerned insurance wouldn’t like it because it’s a garage directly above with vehicles.

The area in red in the attached picture is where the wood boiler would be sitting in the workshop below main level garage.

 

[maple1]

Yes, OK - that might not be good then. Insurance might not like any holes at all in the floor. Actually, are you sure they are OK with a wood burner down there regardless of holes in floor? The stairway could also be seen as a hole in the floor too, maybe. I think that (vehicles above) may turn out to be a bigger can of worms, with further thought. Even with the factory legs, I am not sure the firebox would be far enough off the floor, for what I have read their requirements are for a garage situation - if they allow it at all.

 

[Sukhoi29SU]

Yes, OK - that might not be good then. Insurance might not like any holes at all in the floor. Actually, are you sure they are OK with a wood burner down there regardless of holes in floor? The stairway could also be seen as a hole in the floor too, maybe. I think that (vehicles above) may turn out to be a bigger can of worms, with further thought. Even with the factory legs, I am not sure the firebox would be far enough off the floor, for what I have read their requirements are for a garage situation - if they allow it at all.

The guys I have spoken to, which include two dealers - both of which were at the house to view the plans, have not indicated that it would be a problem at all...

I hope I can find a solution to the couple issues that have presented themselves - I think this would be a pretty ideal setup for us if we can get it figured out.

I was initially planning on g200, which is a bit shorter.

The addition is 1700 sq ft each floor.
The upper level of home is 2500 sq ft and lower level is another 1700 sq ft.

Total area to be heated hydronically is 7600. But I know I won’t need to heat my garage and workshop to 70 degrees, 24/7. If I can get this zoned properly maybe I stick with the G200 plan and gain a little bit more space back.

 

[maple1]

The one guy to speak to who really counts though is your insurance guy. I wouldn't want to find out I created an uninsurable situation, after investing big in it. Quite a bit at stake.

This is a pretty unique situation.

 

[Sukhoi29SU]

The one guy to speak to who really counts though is your insurance guy. I wouldn't want to find out I created an uninsurable situation, after investing big in it. Quite a bit at stake.

This is a pretty unique situation.

Sound advice. Agreed

 

[BoiledOver]

Stepping back to get a better view.

1. Do you have natural gas available?
2. What will be your source for firewood over the next 10 or 20 years?
3. Are you aware of the firewood quality requirements dictated by a gasification boiler?
4. What will be the primary heating system for the entire house after the addition?
5. Why is this particular unit (G series) your choice?

As to the items above:

1. At this point in time, from a financial perspective, the best way to go. It appears to hold the top spot for some time, but we never know for sure.
2. Some areas are better suited to using firewood than others. Do you have wooded acreage at this home?
3. For optimum gains the firewood must be below 20% and closer to 15%. It takes time to season or more money to purchase than green firewood. Generally speaking gasificatioin boilers use smaller splits than wood stoves and considerably smaller than what are used in conventional outdoor wood heaters.
4. Natural gas? If ya have that, what the heck are you thinking?
5. One quick note about the G series. The statement in the brochure, "The EZ Clean handle makes cleaning the heat exchange tubes a breeze." has proven ineffective at best, and actually counter productive to getting a good transfer of heat. This may not be the type of heating unit best suited to your situation. I will assume from the square footage that this is a higher end home and you will not be skimping on insulation. What may happen, especially considering such a tall chimney and good insulation, you will have creosote issues due to idling. Gasification boilers are best suited to systems with thermal storage where batch burn recharge is implemented, no idling equals no creosote.

 

[Sukhoi29SU]

Stepping back to get a better view.

1. Do you have natural gas available?
2. What will be your source for firewood over the next 10 or 20 years?
3. Are you aware of the firewood quality requirements dictated by a gasification boiler?
4. What will be the primary heating system for the entire house after the addition?
5. Why is this particular unit (G series) your choice?

As to the items above:

1. At this point in time, from a financial perspective, the best way to go. It appears to hold the top spot for some time, but we never know for sure.
2. Some areas are better suited to using firewood than others. Do you have wooded acreage at this home?
3. For optimum gains the firewood must be below 20% and closer to 15%. It takes time to season or more money to purchase than green firewood. Generally speaking gasificatioin boilers use smaller splits than wood stoves and considerably smaller than what are used in conventional outdoor wood heaters.
4. Natural gas? If ya have that, what the heck are you thinking?
5. One quick note about the G series. The statement in the brochure, "The EZ Clean handle makes cleaning the heat exchange tubes a breeze." has proven ineffective at best, and actually counter productive to getting a good transfer of heat. This may not be the type of heating unit best suited to your situation. I will assume from the square footage that this is a higher end home and you will not be skimping on insulation. What may happen, especially considering such a tall chimney and good insulation, you will have creosote issues due to idling. Gasification boilers are best suited to systems with thermal storage where batch burn recharge is implemented, no idling equals no creosote.

1. No, I wish. I live rurally and natural gas is not available.

2. I live on 12 acres of wooded area and my Dad is a couple miles away on 80. I grew up helping my dad get firewood as that was his primary means of heating the home I was raised in.

3. I understand this. I prefer burning red elm because after the tree dies it basically seasons while standing up because there is no bark on the tree, and finally falls to the ground with low moisture content. I also understand that I will most likely have to purchase and have firewood delivered during times when my occupation doesn’t allow me the time to get it myself. That being said, I enjoy gathering it myself and consider it a great excuse to get outside and get some exercise.

4. I’d like for wood to be the primary source. But the radiant system will be hooked to my backup source of fuel, propane, which will have its own boiler. Reference my other thread below, “Finalizing Plans / Seeking Advice” - I attached the building docs here. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finalizing-plans-advice.171331/

5. This unit was recommended by a few people, and I was attracted to a boiler with integral water storage. Do you have a different recommendation for this setup?

 

[BoiledOver]

1. No, I wish. I live rurally and natural gas is not available.

2. I live on 12 acres of wooded area and my Dad is a couple miles away on 80. I grew up helping my dad get firewood as that was his primary means of heating the home I was raised in.

3. I understand this. I prefer burning red elm because after the tree dies it basically seasons while standing up because there is no bark on the tree, and finally falls to the ground with low moisture content. I also understand that I will most likely have to purchase and have firewood delivered during times when my occupation doesn’t allow me the time to get it myself. That being said, I enjoy gathering it myself and consider it a great excuse to get outside and get some exercise.

4. I’d like for wood to be the primary source. But the radiant system will be hooked to my backup source of fuel, propane, which will have its own boiler. Reference my other thread below, “Finalizing Plans / Seeking Advice” - I attached the building docs here. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finalizing-plans-advice.171331/

5. This unit was recommended by a few people, and I was attracted to a boiler with integral water storage. Do you have a different recommendation for this setup?

1. Yeah it's a wish here too.
2. Nice not having to purchase for sure.
3. Glad you have considered this aspect.
4. WOW. Didn't look at your other thread yet but WOW to firewood as primary heat for 7600 square feet. You will have a heat loss analysis done, yes? It is going to be a lot of btu's, meaning it is going to be a lot of firewood. Talking a dozen full cords with an efficient system.
5. Be advised, I am by no means a professional HVAC person. Garn seems to me a better fit to your demands, or maybe a pellet system. Some of the pellet boilers are claiming 90% efficiency. Much less creosote concerns with the pellet boilers, but pellets are not free like cutting from your woods. Since you have acreage maybe another wing where your overhead door is for a boiler and storage room. Hey it's easy for me to spend your money, lol.

 

[Sukhoi29SU]

1. Yeah it's a wish here too.
2. Nice not having to purchase for sure.
3. Glad you have considered this aspect.
4. WOW. Didn't look at your other thread yet but WOW to firewood as primary heat for 7600 square feet. You will have a heat loss analysis done, yes? It is going to be a lot of btu's, meaning it is going to be a lot of firewood. Talking a dozen full cords with an efficient system.
5. Be advised, I am by no means a professional HVAC person. Garn seems to me a better fit to your demands, or maybe a pellet system. Some of the pellet boilers are claiming 90% efficiency. Much less creosote concerns with the pellet boilers, but pellets are not free like cutting from your woods. Since you have acreage maybe another wing where your overhead door is for a boiler and storage room. Hey it's easy for me to spend your money, lol.

5. The main thing I want to do is minimize propane burn and have some sort of ability for self sustaining heat source (firewood). I have two wood burning stoves inside the home and considered possibility of pellet boiler primary and propane supplement and reserve the wood burning for the indoor stoves (although I think that would become simply and ambiance thing if I had a nice radiant heat system fueled by a boiler out in the workshop. I’m not too familiar with pellet boilers or how much pellets I could plan on burning per yer, or even where I’d buy them around here.

I was thinking it’d be around 6-8 cords of wood per season if I kept the temperatures lower in the garage and workshop (it won’t be 70 degrees in garage and workshop 24/7). I have 4200 of living space to heat. If it’s zoned properly I won’t be ‘fully’ heating 7600 sf. My thought was that I either pay Blackhawk propane to bring their big ass truck out to my place and fill the tank, or I hire a high school kid to bring some firewood out and stack it when my time isn’t sufficient to get that much myself. I can get six cords of wood for about $1500. I spent a lot more money on propane out at that house - although you’re correct - I’ll be highly prioritizing getting the place well insulated which will hopefully cut the overall expense.

 

[maple1]

Have you looked at Switzer?

 

[Sukhoi29SU]

Have you looked at Switzer?

Leon (on this forum) recommended I talk to Gary and I plan on giving him a call.

 

[BoiledOver]

The Garn and Switzer are top shelf units and should meet your needs. I hear ya about the self sustaining aspect and if you have the timber, time, and energy to commit, firewood fueled heat is the way to go. Will post some images that show current cost per fuel type and historical data on pellet pricing. My system has now paid its way, all components and fuel from inception equals what would have been spent on propane only heating. If making a change from propane at this point in life, I would seriously be considering pellet boilers for ease of use and relative affordability. Pellet systems have a smaller footprint and are probably a little cleaner to operate.

 

[brenndatomu]

Just curious why you are looking at a unit meant to be outdoors? There are quite a few good indoor units too...