Help sizing a stove, barn renovation

[gfirob]

I am finishing the interior of a small Vermont barn, insulating and drywall, with two floors of about 500 sq feet each (27’ by 19’) and we plan to heat it with a wood stove only. Each floor will be one large room, and each floor has two windows.

We plan to put the stove in the center of the first floor’s long wall, between two windows. The chimney will go straight up through the second floor and out the roof.

There will be an open staircase and we plan heating grates above the stove to assist with the hot air flow to the second floor. The walls and insulation will be new so it should be pretty tight, but it will be in Vermont where it can be very cold in the winter.

The stove will be the only heat in the building, so we need to keep it burning overnight.

I like traditional looking stoves like the Morso 2b Classic, or the Jøtul F 118 CB Black Bear, but I think they have short burn times. The Morso firebox is only .9 cubic feet.

I like the Vermont Castings Resolute Acclaim, which is rated at 1600 sq feet and a 9 hour burn time (1.7 cubic feet fire box) but I’m afraid that may be too much stove for the space. I’d like a cast iron stove.

Or should I look at a bigger stove with a bigger firebox and longer burn times? And will the heating grates above the stove get enough heat to the second floor? Any thoughts?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Simonkenton]

That is a perfect set-up for a wood stove. Some guys more knowledgable than me will be along with suggestions for your remodeled barn. Good luck!

ps That attachment is not legible, it is too dark.

 

[Grisu]

Welcome to the forum!

For 1000 sqft in VT a mid-size stove of about 2 cu ft in firebox size should be sufficient and not heat you out of that place. Optimal would be a catalytic stove as you can damper it down more for a low and steady heat output. A Woodstock Fireview stove, which would be a "local" product, or a BlazeKing Ashford 30 would be good choices here. For non-catalytic secondary burn stoves, the Pacific Energy Alderlea T5 gets some of the longest burn times for a mid-size stove. Other options would be a Jotul F500 or F45, Regency F2400, Hearthstone Shelburne, Quadrafire Explorer II to name a few. When the place will be rather airtight, look into adding an outside air kit to your installation. And make sure the grates follow fire building codes. Fusable dampers are highly recommended.

Be aware that any modern stove requires dry wood with less than 20% internal moisture. How many cords do you have already split and stacked?

 

[brad wilton]

I would go big , had a stove that was to small kept stoking to get heat.have one for 3500 sqft load and relax

 

[gfirob]

Thanks, very helpful. I only have wood for the small Jotul in the house (F100), but the guy that sells us wood has been pretty good in the quality department. We will start the construction on the barn in February, so I have not been buying wood yet. Maybe I should....

I notice you don't mention the Vermont Castings (I guess a mid-sized stove would be the Encoure 2040). I like the top loading feature of that. The Woodstock Fireview is a very attractive stove.

What are Fusable dampers? And are there alternatives to floor grates if there are fire-code issues? Would an open staircase provide enough air exchange on a space that size?

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Mainely Saws]

I heat about 1000 sq ft of well insulated open space ( but all on one floor ) with a 1.7 CF cast iron stove . I like the stove but only get about 5 hours of usable heat, which means either a chilly morning wake up or a loading in the middle of the night . Next time , it's a larger firebox with longer burn times for sure ...............

 

[Jags]

With your only heating source being wood, I would really get this nailed down. If I were in your shoes, I would be looking at a cat stove for even heating and longevity of the fire.
Will you be insulating the ground floor in any way?

 

[Simonkenton]

I am an old-time Vermont Castings fan, and had a 1988 VC Resolute that was a great stove.
Lately, there have been a lot of quality control problems with Vermont Castings. If you had read as many reports on this forum about VC as I have, you would not buy a Vermont Castings stove.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Here are a couple thoughts in no particular order

1) Skip the VC. The offer an average (at best) product at a premium price.

2) Don't go big. That's a pretty popular notion around here lately. They'll say things like "you can always build a small fire in a big stove" - while this is technically true, what will most likely happen is you'll end up smoldering your stove along on all but the very coldest days.

3) As you pointed out you're in a bind - your place is small and well insulated and you want over night burns. For decent overnight burns you need to be in the "medium" size stoves and that's about 2 CF (give or take). But, IMO, as the owner of a 2 CF stove I can assure you it's a lot of stove for a well insulated 1000 SF space. IMO - the best compromise would be about 1.5 CF.

I have not been buying wood yet. Maybe I should....

Yes

 

[Jags]

I disagree with Redd (ain't the first time). You are dealing with a heat load that is 32% higher in your region than in the Shelton, WA region. That is significant. Stick to 2.0+ of stove both for the fuel capacity and the heat requirements.

Note:
Heating degree days for (12 month snapshot)
Rochester, VT = 7987
Shelton, WA = 5482

 

[Bigg_Redd]

I am aware that VT has colder winters than we do here in God's country. I also know my place is more than 32% bigger than 1000sf, and not nearly as well insulated.

 

[Jags]

I am aware that VT has colder winters than we do here in God's country. I also know my place is more than 32% bigger than 1000sf, and not nearly as well insulated.

Both true - but your heating degree days are moderated. A bit cooler summer and the winters are not brutally cold. When was the last time you had to maintain heat at zero degrees for an extended period of time? Remember - sole source of heat.

And... an overnight burn will be tough to maintain using a 1.5 cuft stove. Most burners report a usable heat cycle of about 5 hours in that size of stove. That might work just fine with a temp differential of 40F (or whatever), but when you get a temp differential of 70+ degrees it becomes a whole nuther animal.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

And... an overnight burn will be tough to maintain using a 1.5 cuft stove.

True, but this sortov leads us down the "what does burn time mean?" rabbit hole. My guess is after 7-8 hours a well insulated place won't be cold (another subjective term) and can easily be re-warmed.

EDIT: I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about, but I feel like I do.

 

[Jags]

EDIT: I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about, but I feel like I do.

 

[gfirob]

This is all helpful advice, including the ambiguity. I also always feel I know exactly what I'm talking about, while sad experience has taught me that this is not always the case at all...

The floor will be insulated (there is a root cellar under the first floor) and contractor is very familiar with wood heat and maximum return on insulation (he has priced out additional lumber to create space for thicker insulation). So the rooms should be pretty tight, and there is a south exposure for two of the windows and one side of the (metal) roof. There is a wood stove in the house and wood heat is widely used in Vermont.

I am aware of the knocks Vermont Castings has received for quality control and complicated parts. Unfortunately for a buyer, there is a blizzard of stove companies and features, and almost as many dedicated fans as detractors. So I really appreciate the perceptions of people who have experience with the stoves and their issues. I heated a small farmhouse in the Blueridge mountains of Virginia entirely with wood for about five years, and the stove was a Waterford Reginald (a Jotul 118 clone) and it did pretty well with its out-put and burn time—though on really cold nights it needed a 3:00 am feeding. But Virginia is like Palm Beach compared to central Vermont, I'm afraid. And that stove did give me a chimney fire one year, very dramatic.

I agree that tight and well insulated rooms will probably hold the heat pretty well after 7-8 hours, but won't a soapstone stove take longer to get it up to temperature in the morning? Or is that offset by the longer radiant time of the stone?

I think I also will need a local dealer for service issues, though there are a fair number of them in Vermont reasonably close (in Vermont driving terms).

Has Jotul ended up with poor reviews given their costs? Any further thoughts on airflow and open grates on the floor?

Thanks again.

 

[Mainely Saws]

Sole source of heat , some bitterly cold temps at times, two floors & looking to keep it burning overnight, I'm still in the 2.0 CFT stove or over crowd .................

 

[Bigg_Redd]

won't a soapstone stove take longer to get it up to temperature in the morning?

Yes. More mass = more time to heat up. Plus they are not very attractive.

Has Jotul ended up with poor reviews given their costs?

Not per se. They do charge quite a bit for what can only be described as aesthetics.

 

[Jags]

Jotul - albeit pricey, has a solid reputation as a reliable heater.

Insulated floor, offset studs to eliminate bridging - all sounds good.

 

[firefighterjake]

Random thoughts . . .

Vermont Casting stoves look pretty . . . but in my opinion . . . they still haven't proven to me that they're able to put out product that will stand the test of time as they did back in their heyday. I personally would keep looking at other woodstove makes/models.

Soapstone Stoves: Seems to me that many folks believe that soapstone takes a significant amount of time to heat up . . . but actual users have had mixed reports with some saying that it is true about the stove taking a long time to heat up and then others saying they heat up relatively quickly (especially when compared to a cast iron stove) . . . what is pretty much universally agreed on though by nearly everyone is that soapstone does radiate heat for a pretty long time after being brought up to temp.

Local Dealer . . . nice to have in my opinion . . . but not crucial . . . I have yet to return back to my dealer in the six years I've had my stove . . and it's not because I didn't like them . . . in fact, I really liked the way they did business and if I needed anything would go back to them without any issues.

Sizing the stove: I have said it before and I'll say it again. Two very good bits of advice I received here before buying my stove was to a) take the time and money to insulate the home and seal up drafts before buying a stove and b) figure out the size of the home and then go one size bigger than what the manufacturers suggest would work for the home.

Jotul: If you like the looks of the Vermont Castings, I would take a long, hard look at Jotul as (to me) they have similar designs. As for the quality of Jotul, there are not too many folks who have bought Jotul woodstoves who are not happy with the purchase, despite the cost. I believe Jotul also makes a top loader if this is truly important to you.

Moving the heat up the Stairs: How well the heat will move up the stairwell will largely depend on the air flow in the home. I can tell you that in my home with a centrally located staircase to the second floor the heat moves very well and I am able to heat most of my 1,800 square foot home with the woodstove.

Stove Choice: I suspect many woodstoves would fit your needs, but I would give stoves with cats a very, long hard look if I was using a woodstove as my only heat source. I'm not saying secondary burning stoves will not work because there are folks out there using them as their primary or only source of heat . . . but from what I've seen here . . . it seems as though folks without any back up heating sources really love their cat stoves with their typical longer burns. Personally, being in New England, I would take the time to check out Woodstock's line up and see what would best work for you.

 

[gfirob]

So this is sounding like a good choice might be the Woodstock Fireview. It's a cat stove, made in the US, traditional styling, long burn time (12-12 hrs), and firebox size about 2 sq ft (if I did the math right). Cheaper than Jotul too, though I like the way the Jotuls look. Any idea what the life-span of the cat unit is? What would be a good competitor to this stove? Looks like the Jotul stoves are non-cat stoves, is that correct?
Thanks

 

[brad wilton]

vermont is not far away from me we can have +25 to -25 temp swings in a 6 to 7 hour span

 

[Grisu]

Any idea what the life-span of the cat unit is?

5 to 8 years seems to be the consensus here but you could also ask Woodstock. I think a new one is not that expensive, about $150 if I remember that correctly.

What would be a good competitor to this stove?

BlazeKing makes also cat stoves that can be adjusted easily for a low, steady heat output. The 30 series (Chinook, Sirocco, Ashford) would probably be best and would give you up to 24 hours burn time when it is not that cold outside. BlazeKing has a 10 year warranty on their catalysts.

Looks like the Jotul stoves are non-cat stoves, is that correct?

Correct. Other than that they are a very good company that make good and dependable heaters. If you don't want to go for a cat stove they are certainly worth considering.

Btw. Look also into some other heating source for your barn. You will probably need it for insurance purposes (wood stove almost never gets accepted as primary heat source) and for the times when no one can tend the stove or the stove may be broken (usually rare but can happen, e. g. cracked glass). Electric baseboards would be something cheap and easy to install or maybe a mini-split heatpump?

 

[gfirob]

So, given all this thoughtful advice, I am thinking that these are three possibilities, (medium sized traditional stoves in cast iron or soapstone) going with the idea that the place will be tight and well insulated, with the stove installed in a central position, and a straight chimney through the ceiling and roof. These all have fairly good burn times and (I think) firebox sizes around 2 sq feet, which should be ok for a tight building of 1000 sq feet, I suppose.

1) Jotul F400 Castine, non-cat, good stove but pricy ($2600-$2800 in enamel, $2200 flat black)

2) Woodstock Fireview, cat stove, delivery and set-up issues to a small town (factory purchase)

3) Vermont Castings Resolute Acclaim (complaints about quality and complicated small-parts design)

So I think I would lean towards the Jotul F400 and bite the bullet on the price. Sorry to lose the cat option, though. Good looking stove and available in enamel for a fairly large up-charge.

Any thoughts on these?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Might as well have a hard look at the PE Alderlea T4 Classic. All the benefit of cast iron, none of the draw backs.

 

[begreen]

Add to the mix the Quadrafire Yosemite, Hampton H300 (instead of the VC) , and Hearthstone Shelburne.