Hot air wood furnaces that meet the new EPA regs...

brenndatomu Posted By brenndatomu, Jan 15, 2017 at 4:41 PM

  1. brenndatomu

    brenndatomu
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    Just to clarify, this is the stove pipe between the furnace and the chimney? If so, and it is the cheap old single wall stuff, going to double wall can help a lot too (it keeps the internal temps up better)
     
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  2. lampmfg

    lampmfg
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    I doubt this will be the case for the upcoming 2020 regulation with most manufacturers, though. That is if there still is an EPA:)
     
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  3. STIHLY DAN

    STIHLY DAN
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    Ooh, that sounds like a pro Trump. Not saying that is good or bad, just to keep politics out of the thread.
     
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  4. sloeffle

    sloeffle
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    IMHO, we ( the public ) should be happy that the EPA is forcing manufacturers to build cleaner burning wood appliances.

    Why should I be forced to breath dirtier air when we have the technology at a reasonable price to manufacture appliances that are more efficient and release less CO, CO2, NO, NO2 and SO2 ?
     
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  5. lampmfg

    lampmfg
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    Believe me, if there is one company that wants the EPA around it's us. Otherwise, why would we have even gone through this testing process, we will be terribly upset if they don't enforce or change the regulations at all. However, there will be a lot of happy companies like most that currently claim to burn clean right now. If they deregulate we probably will quit manufacturing them all together since most people will choose the cheaper so-called clean burning option.
     
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  6. John Ackerly

    John Ackerly
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    The EPA just updated their list of warm air furnaces and there are only 10 units that are certified. We did an analysis of them,

    http://forgreenheat.blogspot.com/2017/05/all-wood-and-pellet-furnaces-must-be.html

    Most are pretty basic, with average efficiency less than 60%, and one US Stove model only gets 33% efficiency. Not sure this class of heater will really survive the 2020 EPA standards, except for ones that use pellets. If the Europeans made more furnaces, using electronic controls like oxygen sensors, cord wood units may be able to pass. But in my opinion, this class of heater is still in the backwaters from technology point of view.
     
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  7. maple1

    maple1
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    I don't see your analysis? Did I miss it?
     
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  8. lampmfg

    lampmfg
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    John,
    Since the May list was published, the Kuuma Vapor-Fire 100 manufactured by Lamppa Manufacturing in Tower, Minnesota has been certified by the EPA. The VF100 is a gasification warm-air furnace and it tested at 0.093 pounds/mmBTU. Thus, it is 10 times cleaner than the current standard and 40% cleaner than the 2020 and beyond standard. The VF100 is a cord-wood furnace.
    Regards,
     
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  9. DoubleB

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  10. maple1

    maple1
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  11. JRHAWK9

    JRHAWK9
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  12. Letsburnwoodnotoil

    Letsburnwoodnotoil
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    Does anyone ever think about pellet fired furnaces? What are the negatives and positives?
     
  13. brenndatomu

    brenndatomu
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    Some people do...just not me...at least not at this point. Firewood for me is "free" ...pellets not so much. Now if I ever get to the point that I can't handle firewood...maybe I'll revisit the issue.
     
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  14. S.Whiplash

    S.Whiplash
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    Where is the PSG Caddy line on that list? I thought from their advertising they qualified under the latest EPA standards.
     
  15. brenndatomu

    brenndatomu
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    Reread my OP...#2 on the list...
     
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  16. Highbeam

    Highbeam
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    YES! In my shop I really could use a more automated wood burner and the pellet furnaces are loved by some folks. Especially on that "other" wood burning site. The brand I would love to have is a Fahrenheit

    http://www.fahrenheittech.com/endurance_corn_stove.html

    It also burns corn and other fuels. 3000-4000$ which is about the same as a quality pellet stove but much more capable and efficient.
     
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  17. brenndatomu

    brenndatomu
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  18. JRHAWK9

    JRHAWK9
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    I don't quite understand why these manufacturers are spending the resources to just get phase I certified? You'd think they'd want to go for the 2020 phase II right away. Phase II is only a few years removed and they will have to do a complete redesign again if they want to continue to sell. Phase I certification is just a small step compared to what they will need to do to become phase II compliant. Just doesn't make much sense to me. I understand they are probably just trying to buy time, but still.
     
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  19. blades

    blades
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    Partly you are correct the other side is market share- warm air wood furnaces and outdoor boilers are not the primary market for wood burning appliances. The parlor stove is the bulk of the market.
    Kuma is in a class by itself a they do not seem to market to the parlor stove types. There use to be a Wisconsin based wood furnace company that had a nice design ( true gasification type) some 10 years back, they did not make any stoves. didn't do much advertising either located mid- northern 1/2 of state. Wish I could remember the name or even what home base was.
     
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  20. JRHAWK9

    JRHAWK9
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    So, do you think the warm air furnace companies who can't make them phase II compliant will just give up on warm air furnaces then?
     
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  21. blades

    blades
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    depends on how much R&D $ they are willing to invest. Wood stove isn't much different than furnace on the warm air side of things just adding distribution system to it. Boilers more complex. Its just stateside they are behind the curve in comparison to European units because they didn't have the emission standards to meet. And then there is the price point, I can install a NG furnace with AC for under 2gs - Ain't gonna do that with a wood unit currently. Volume of the market.
     
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  22. brenndatomu

    brenndatomu
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    NG furnace is a throw away item anymore too...
     
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  23. BKVP

    BKVP
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    In addition to R&D costs, the next biggest concern is compliance. The 2015 NSPS, which captured the wood and pellet furnaces, both small and large, resulted in complex network of compliance matters.

    We exited this market segment for this very reason. If and that is a big "if", EPA were to revisit the standards and compliance matters to reduce financial burden to small manufacturers, we may be interested in the market segment.
     
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  24. maple1

    maple1
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    When you say a big concern is 'compliance' - do you mean the cost of getting compliance certifications?

    As opposed to the cost of actually making a unit that complies with the regs, operation/emission wise?

    (I.e., the 'red tape' cost vs. physical 'doing it' cost. Doing it vs. proving it. So to speak...)
     
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  25. BKVP

    BKVP
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    Red Tape, heck yes! Read the NSPS, all subsections relating to QQQQ. That is what is meant by Compliance.
     
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