hybrid Masonry Heaters, with the stove made of iron

[Cath]

Has anyone heard of these hybrid Masonry Heaters, with the stove made of iron? The dealer is in Vermont. According to their website they can be dry stacked by "Do It Yourselfers".

I think they are made in Germany. There may be other dealers in the US. I don't know how you'd find them without the manufacturer's name.

http://www.vermontwoodstove.com/hybridws.htm
EXCERPT
“Thanks for your interest in our New Hybrid Soapstone Woodstoves. These units have been developed to provide "maximum" radiant heat storage and output, at just half the weight (1,500-2,000lbs) of our full size masonry heaters (4,000-8,000lbs). As well, the design of these units allows them to be easily dry stack pinned and assembled without mortar, by homeowners and do it yourselfers. Our Hybrid Soapstone Woodstoves utilize a cast iron woodstove core in which the wood is burned. Surrounding the woodstove core is 2 3/8" thick beautifully crafted and finished soapstone veneer. The Soapstone absorbs, stores, and radiates heat... for hours after the fire is out.”

There are 5 or 6 styles and the prices range from $5,000 to $7,000. They all put out 34,000 btus capable of heating 750 to 1000 sf.

The Palisadium is one of the lighter ones at about 1630 Lbs. It costs $5,000 but the “Holiday Special” with shipping is $6,700.00. Since the rest of them weigh a little more that suggests the minimum amount for shipping would be $1,700.00.
The planning page gives some cooking options but I don’t know if they apply to the hybrid stoves or just the regular masonry stoves.

Out of curiosity I did send them an email asking whether a concrete foundation would be strong enough, what kind of chimney is required (whether a steel pipe would be sufficient) and what, if any cooking options they come with and what they might cost.
~Cath

 

[Burn-1]

Cath I found them on a different site but talked them in this post.

I think they look great but are not too many BTU's for the money and I mentioned you could buy a Mansfield and an Equinox for about the same money. That said, they look pretty nice and easy to put together.

 

[Cath]

The company lists these as wood stoves and they are an interesting mix of a cast iron insert and a very large soapstone surround. Probably not a masonry heater by MHA specs but certainly larger than most soapstone stoves. Although for the money you could probably buy two Mansfields or an Equinox and a Phoenix. European product and high shipping costs probably don’t help the cause much either.

Keith I realize that these are not true masonry heaters, (they come pretty close in mass I'm betting no change in flame path) which is why I put the two disclaimers in the post but I have corrected the subject to be less confusing

Burn-1,
The above quotations are from the thread you referred me to. For anyone interested I'm including the link to the dealer you found.

M. Texeira Soapstone: New York / New Jersey & San Francisco, CA
(broken link removed)

I appreciate Keith's point that these aren't true masonry heaters, which is something I didn't quite realize before. However, it seems more viable as a retrofit option than a real MH; and for someone with a strong enough existing foundation and a good open space to take advantage of the radiant heat it potentially offers more value than a large Hearthstone. I love the idea of radiant heat and the idea of cooking a casserole with the same fuel that's heating my house. And although it would take a long time, theoretically you could recoup the additional expense through savings on wood.

It seems like they have about half as much soapstone so my guess is that they hold the radiant heat about half as long. Or do you think it's even less than that due to any design differences; e.g.: perhaps the heat is not channelled to the stone?

I'd love to hear from anyone who is more familiar with them. Especially someone that has one.
~Cath

 

[Cath]

Burn-1,
Did you see these pictures at the M. Teixeira site showing how they are assembled? It does seem pretty DIY friendly, if you can handle the weight.

It does illustrate that the "convoluted smoke paths" of a true masonry heater are missing.

~Cath

 

[daleeper]

"It seems like they have about half as much soapstone so my guess is that they hold the radiant heat about half as long. Or do you think it's even less than that due to any design differences; e.g.: perhaps the heat is not channelled to the stone?

I'd love to hear from anyone who is more familiar with them. Especially someone that has one."
~Cath

Cath, I don't own one, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

The reading I have done would indicate that a key component of the design of a masonry heater includes the extended flue path within the storage. This allows the heat of a real hot fire the surface exposure to transfer from the flue gas to the storage mass before it exits into the chimney and outside. Part of the efficiency gained by masonry heaters is the fact that they burn a hot fire for a shorter period of time rather than having a fire going all the time. The iron firebox will not handle the heat that is typical in the burn of a masonry heater. The design you are linking to looks to me like a regular wood stove, with additional storage of heat using soapstone. All the advantages/disadvantages of a soapstone stove on a grander scale and price tag.

I too would be interested in hearing from owners of these hybrid heaters, and would expand that to those who have been able to "store or extend" the heat output of their wood stove in a like manner. I believe there is a stove by the same principle, called Cera-stove. Not nearly as nice looking, but uses storage mass. The cera-stove is also really designed for high heat fires, which would be more efficient.

 

[Cath]

...
Cath, I don't own one, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

The reading I have done would indicate that a key component of the design of a masonry heater includes the extended flue path within the storage. This allows the heat of a real hot fire the surface exposure to transfer from the flue gas to the storage mass before it exits into the chimney and outside. Part of the efficiency gained by masonry heaters is the fact that they burn a hot fire for a shorter period of time rather than having a fire going all the time. The iron firebox will not handle the heat that is typical in the burn of a masonry heater. The design you are linking to looks to me like a regular wood stove, with additional storage of heat using soapstone. All the advantages/disadvantages of a soapstone stove on a grander scale and price tag.

I too would be interested in hearing from owners of these hybrid heaters, and would expand that to those who have been able to "store or extend" the heat output of their wood stove in a like manner. I believe there is a stove by the same principle, called Cera-stove. Not nearly as nice looking, but uses storage mass. The cera-stove is also really designed for high heat fires, which would be more efficient.

daleeper,
As much as I was hoping to hear from someone with direct knowledge I do appreciate input from people with educated guesses. Until hearing from you I didn't fully appreciate the significance of the iron insert, except to guess that overfiring might be an issue; and that it could also imply more fire tending.

I'll have to check out the Cera-stove. That reminds me of something else I saw in one of the threads I found here when looking into this. Unfortunately I can't begin to remember what it's called. It was basically a very utilitarian box of metal and soapstone. If the price is right that might be the way to go since my husband would prefer to put it on the utility end of the basement to keep the water pipes warm and there's no sense in spending too much money on looks if it's going to be sitting near the washer and dryer anyway. Placing it there has the added advantage of putting the pipe behind the existing chimney which would look better from the outside.
~Cath

 

[daleeper]

One of the things to keep in mind, is that some of these stoves have no UL listings, or EPA testing. Insurance may not be too excited about your installing untested equipment of this nature in your home.

 

[Cath]

One of the things to keep in mind, is that some of these stoves have no UL listings, or EPA testing. Insurance may not be too excited about your installing untested equipment of this nature in your home.

daleeper,
You anticipated my next question. Thanks.

That probably points me back towards the "hybrids", which are EPA approved, unless I win the lottery and can build an addition and plan for a small masonry heater.

In which case I'd be interested in any more feedback on just how much longer these will hold heat as compared to a Mansfield or Equinox.
~Cath

 

[Burn-1]

The Cera-Stove is built by Fred Seton who also markets the Seton wood boilers. I thought about one until my wife disabused me of that notion. They are not the prettiest by a damn sight.

 

[Cath]

The Cera-Stove is built by Fred Seton who also markets the Seton wood boilers. I thought about one until my wife disabused me of that notion. They are not the prettiest by a damn sight.

Burn-1,
I did find that site. I should have included the link.

As far as I can tell dadeera is correct, I didn't see any indication on that site that they are EPA approved, or UL listed for that matter. Although it's possible I missed it given the way the pages are designed. Some of the pages are jam packed with information with no spacing to make it easier on the eye.

Do you have any information suggesting that they are UL listed or EPA approved? If so, I may be interested.

ETA - I may drop them an email to ask about UL listing and EPA approval.

~Cath

 

[woody&sons]

Just looking over this thread, having built about a dozen masonry heaters in my area, I would like to comment on the new HYBRID masonry heaters as they are currently being sold by soapstone dealers.

The firebox temperature in a Masonry Heater reaches 1200 degrees F and complete combustion occurs. Cast Iron glows cherry red at around 900 degrees...

A masonry heater can heat for more than 24 hours after one good fire, but only because of the amount of stone being heated.

A smaller version of a masonry heater, say quarter-sized would be heated with a bundle of kindling. The size of the fuel load would be reduced in direct proportion to the reduction in heat storage capacity. This could be a "hybrid" masonry heater. Complete combustion would still occur, the fire would still be sent through downdraft channels, and the 90% fuel efficiency of a well-designed masonry heater would still be attained.
But it seems like a stretch to surround a woodstove with stone and call it a masonry heater.

 

[Cath]

... A smaller version of a masonry heater, say quarter-sized would be heated with a bundle of kindling. The size of the fuel load would be reduced in direct proportion to the reduction in heat storage capacity. This could be a "hybrid" masonry heater. Complete combustion would still occur, the fire would still be sent through downdraft channels, and the 90% fuel efficiency of a well-designed masonry heater would still be attained.
But it seems like a stretch to surround a woodstove with stone and call it a masonry heater.

Thanks for the feedback. Although it wouldn't be clear from this thread that is pretty much the conclusion I have reached since looking into it more closely. The term "hybrid" is a bit of an overstatement; I think they are more accurately described as soapstone convection heaters in terms of how they are loaded and operated. However, given the extra large amount of soapstone compared to the largest soapstone wood stoves out there --even the Equinox, I could see where they might get a little carried away with the hyperbole in terms of how long they hold the heat.

If I understand correctly they can continue to radiate heat for up to 4 - 6 hours. Perhaps someone with a Mansfield or an Equinox can comment on how long those continue to radiate once the fire is out. My vague impression is that they might radiate for roughly half that length. So there could be a significant difference in terms of going overnight. Of course they cost a lot more so I was really hoping to hear from someone that has actually seen one in operation to get a better sense of whether there is real "value for the money".

BTW, are you a member of the Masonry Heaters Association? I am now a member of their Yahoo Group for laypersons and find myself receiving the occasional email for industry professionals.

The latest is a request for high resolution pictures of Masonry Heaters to be published in an upcoming industry magazine (can't remember the name of it at the moment), the builder would receive attribution. Drop me a line if you would like the contact info.
~Cath